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Post by Raga on Mar 14, 2017 15:53:26 GMT
What the title says. I brought this up as a thought before, but it stuck with me; based on how different and unique an individual most of humanity finds itself being, it'd be foolish to think that, after years of interaction with humans and quarians, no asari has thought 'I don't feel right in my body.' Now, obviously, lore states that asari are female monogendered. I certainly don't mean to go against this. But I do think it'd be an interesting charcter study, of a person who sees another race, another gender so alien to them, and feels it's where, how they truly belong, and they make steps to reach that internal and external union of identity. Or I'm just an idiot. I don't l know (though I expect much sarcasm), but, thoughts? Empty premise, enticing reflection of humanity, interesting change to a staple dynamic, curious character study? *Puts on my psuedo-science hat* I think it makes for an interesting thought experiment, but would probably have a messy reception. Namely because as I understand trans (or at least as it's been explained to me more than once) trans people actually think they have effectively been born with the right biological brain (say male) into the wrong biological body (female). This idea would necessitate brains as well as reproductive equipment having some kind of intrinsic maleness or femaleness. If they don't, then gender really is all just social roles and they really are just choosing their gender. Considering asari have no biological reason to have multi-sexed brains or bodies, it seems implausible for such quirks of evolution to occur. I as a biological female might be born with some male traits (physical or mental) because the code for that potentiality exists in the human genetic makeup. I might even be born with some other nonsexual aberrations (6 toes say). I am however unlikely to be born with cat ears or an elephant's trunk because that code just isn't there. And the biology for two sexes (mental or physical) just isn't present with asari. To use anything but this setup would by necessity imply that transgenderism *is* a choice - that they have no genetic markers of maleness at all but are merely choosing to be "male." I'm not really here to argue about whether transgenderism is actually a choice, but it would create a messy response if you implied it. I think it would be more interesting to find an asari with with some other sexual orientation than pansexualism. Considering sexual orientation does appear to be some convoluted mix of genetic and environmental factors we don't understand (note: to say environmental does not mean to say voluntary), I find it more plausible an asari could develop an explicit orientation, especially lesbianism.
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Post by kaind on Mar 14, 2017 19:25:32 GMT
They're parroting post modernist deconstruction theory espoused by Jaques Derrida, but the vast majority of these people are either too ill read or ignorant to understand that this is where their dogma comes from, so they just regurgitate the party line with no concept of what the fuck they're talking about. Funnily enough a theory based on the pathological tendencies of Derrida is completely deranged and frankly nihilistic. I like how people randomly assume that your thoughts are not your own. God forbid someone comes to their own conclusions from observing the world. I am not a feminist, I haven't taken any gender studies classes, I just say what I consider to be rational and logical.
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Post by kaind on Mar 14, 2017 19:26:32 GMT
I don't know how anyone can, in full confidence, say that in a society that does not have any gender roles or gender expression, where males and females are allowed to express themselves however they wish without judgment, that there will be no such thing as gender dysphoria and gender identity. And how exactly can you have a ''gender'' dysphoria if there is no gender?
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Post by ToLazy4Name on Mar 14, 2017 19:56:43 GMT
gender is real but it's also not real but if it's not real then it's real but not really
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Post by Lorn on Mar 14, 2017 20:05:51 GMT
No, it is your case that is faulty. Not only do you believe that gender is a social construct, but you believe that the faults with the case of Bruce/Brenda/David Reimer is in any way beneficial to your argument. If gender was indeed a "social construct" then Brenda Reimer would NOT have acted like a young boy. In fact, Brenda Reimer would have acted EXACTLY as Dr. Money said she did in his paper, Brenda Reimer would have remained Brenda and not decided to "transition" to a boy. Money's paper has gone on to influence feminism and "gender theory" for decades. The fact that you're arguing against something that supposedly proves your beliefs is just icing on the cake! Really? There are no differences between the genders? Well, I suppose that's a position one could take if they believed that gender was a social construct, however it (shockingly) ignores the scientific evidence that shows other wise. Specifically, the way pathways are formed in the brain, which hormones the body produces, etc: www.webmd.com/brain/features/how-male-female-brains-differ#1While I generally loathe Psychology Today, I am going to link one of their articles, specifically: Brain Differences Between Genders
www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hope-relationships/201402/brain-differences-between-genders Brenda Reimer did NOT act like a young boy since the only way to act as a young boy is to have a penis ( as in having a penis would be said act ). There is no such thing as a ''boy'' behavior. It is perfectly normal for girls to do everything that Brenda Reimer felt like doing. I already said what I believe about the differences. People act differently depending on their neurological balance, and some things are more common in one sex over the other, however it is not always the case, and even on average there in only about 10-15% difference, which is not enough to tailor the whole system around it. Even your article constantly says ''often'' because it's not always the case. We are talking about chemicals here, and the chemical balance between the individuals of the same sex is HUGE, not just between the sexes. So what you're telling me is, that all of the transgender male to females that refuse to get their penis hacked off and turned into a vagina are actually men? Of course, taking in your next post into account, if nurture was SO POWERFUL then Brenda never would have felt the need to become David, because Brenda would have developed into a happy girl. Which of course isn't what happened because Brenda refused to go on female hormones, you know the things that MtFs take in order to partially "complete" their transition that you address without actually saying it. Of course, you also argue that we should take the exceptions of brain chemistry as a rule, which is not how rules work (otherwise we wouldn't have exceptions). Oh this is grand, first you argue that gender isn't real and then you argue that it is real. Not only is it real, but it PLAYS A BIG ROLE IN OUR LIVES! It's almost as if you're expressing a textbook example of cognitive dissonance. Another nail in the coffin of the faulty belief that "gender is a social construct" is by examining the behavior of the other creatures that we share this planet with. First we shall take a look at the arachnids, specifically the Latrodectus (the Widow spider species). Male latrodectus will select their mates by choosing ones that have already eaten, while females will attempt to eat the males after sex (provided the male spider is unable to escape). In this case, the female spiders devouring the male spiders would be a gender norm. For the next and final case we shall observe the differences of behavior in panthera leo (lions). In comparison to the arachnids above, lions are quite social. Lions live in either a pride or in pairs. A pride is a female led social unit consisting of female relatives and their offspring, these females are highly aggressive towards females from another "family" joining the pride. When male lions are excluded from the pride around age 2, upon which these males will become "nomads" and may roam in pairs, usually seeking another unrelated pride. Female lions tend to be more effective hunters, while male lions exist to provide protection for the pride and their offspring. I'm sure these lions would take great solace in knowing that they no longer have to follow "gender norms" since society created them. Look, I like females with smooth legs. Rationally I understand that it is not right, because hairy legs are natural and normal, however I have been thoroughly conditioned to find shaved legs attractive, and at this point it would take quite a lot of psychological effort to change if it is at all possible. Society created this standard of beauty, but it is real and I feel it and in every day life many girls don't feel good looking unless they have smooth legs. If people lived by instincts like animals and didn't have such a large degree of freedom over how they want to develop your argument would hold more weight. You really underestimate the power of nurture. Let's look at the most basic thing: sex, and let's look at the fetishes. People conditioned their minds to have sexual reaction to in-animate things for example high-heels. People can get off from sucking on a high-heel. That is not a person, that does not lead to reproduction, yet the brain has a response as if it does. There is just no point in bringing up nature at all at this point. Humans have defeated the most basic instincts of "survive" and "multiply" and would rather live for entertainment, die for ideas and a quite substancial percentage don't want to procreate at all. So then rationally you would do everything in your power to change the way you think, but since you don't see it as too much of a problem (as well as it requiring too much effort for you to accomplish) you're not going to. You're going to sit back and decry your "faulty thinking" while doing nothing about it, which is rather hypocritical if you think about it. I am the one underestimating the power of nurture? How so? So far you've made a greater case for nature than I have. You have argued that boys can't be boys without a penis, girls can't be girls without a vagina, and you have argued that you are powerless to change your "faulty way of thinking". Contradictions run rampant in your posts! Once again, that is the exception not the rule. There are far too many people that want to have children, which is how it has always been.
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Post by kaind on Mar 14, 2017 20:22:46 GMT
So what you're telling me is, that all of the transgender male to females that refuse to get their penis hacked off and turned into a vagina are actually men? Of course, taking in your next post into account, if nurture was SO POWERFUL then Brenda never would have felt the need to become David, because Brenda would have developed into a happy girl. Which of course isn't what happened because Brenda refused to go on female hormones, you know the things that MtFs take in order to partially "complete" their transition that you address without actually saying it. Of course, you also argue that we should take the exceptions of brain chemistry as a rule, which is not how rules work (otherwise we wouldn't have exceptions). First question - yes. Nurture comes from everywhere, when we grow up we get a whole bunch of different ideas from all around. I also didn't exactly grow up into a person than my parents wanted me to be, but their influence is just a small fraction of what I experienced while growing up. And like I said, there are so many girls that want to do exactly what Brenda wanted to do in their childhood and it's completely fine. Different exceptions are all around in this sphere, there is nothing to be gained by making up rules in this sphere in the first place. How does society benefit from prejudice towards people based on their sex? So then rationally you would do everything in your power to change the way you think, but since you don't see it as too much of a problem (as well as it requiring too much effort for you to accomplish) you're not going to. You're going to sit back and decry your "faulty thinking" while doing nothing about it, which is rather hypocritical if you think about it. I am the one underestimating the power of nurture? How so? So far you've made a greater case for nature than I have. You have argued that boys can't be boys without a penis, girls can't be girls without a vagina, and you have argued that you are powerless to change your "faulty way of thinking". Contradictions run rampant in your posts! Once again, that is the exception not the rule. There are far too many people that want to have children, which is how it has always been. What is hypocritical? I don't think that effort is worth the satisfaction that I would get, so logically I don't put in effort. You CAN change your faulty way of thinking if you really want to. Where exactly are the contradictions? Name them. The rule however is people put their convenience over the value of reproduction, and it's nice of you to cherry pick the one thing out of everything I have named.
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Post by Elsariel on Mar 14, 2017 20:26:55 GMT
I don't know how anyone can, in full confidence, say that in a society that does not have any gender roles or gender expression, where males and females are allowed to express themselves however they wish without judgment, that there will be no such thing as gender dysphoria and gender identity. And how exactly can you have a ''gender'' dysphoria if there is no gender? Because core gender identity is not the same as societal imposed gender "roles" or gender "expression". Like I said before, I think there would still be the sensation that your body does not adequately reflect how you think it should look, even though you can express yourself however you wish. Edit: And I'm not talking about wearing dresses or ties. I'm talking about genitalia.
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Post by kaind on Mar 14, 2017 20:29:36 GMT
And how exactly can you have a ''gender'' dysphoria if there is no gender? Because core gender identity is not the same as societal imposed gender "roles" or gender "expression". Like I said before, I think there would still be the sensation that your body does not adequately reflect how you think it should look, even though you can express yourself however you wish. THAT has nothing to do with gender, it's the same thing when people don't like their nose and go under the knife to change it to match better what they have in mind. Same for any body parts. Some people even make extreme body modifications like adding horns or splitting the tongue.
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Post by Elsariel on Mar 14, 2017 20:32:03 GMT
Because core gender identity is not the same as societal imposed gender "roles" or gender "expression". Like I said before, I think there would still be the sensation that your body does not adequately reflect how you think it should look, even though you can express yourself however you wish. THAT has nothing to do with gender, it's the same thing when people don't like their nose and go under the knife to change it to match better what they have in mind. Same for any body parts. Some people even make extreme body modifications like adding horns or splitting the tongue. Yeah, no. I don't think body modification for aesthetics is even remotely the same as body modification to help relieve gender dysphoria.
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Post by kaind on Mar 14, 2017 20:35:18 GMT
THAT has nothing to do with gender, it's the same thing when people don't like their nose and go under the knife to change it to match better what they have in mind. Same for any body parts. Some people even make extreme body modifications like adding horns or splitting the tongue. Yeah, no. I don't think body modification for aesthetics is even remotely the same as body modification to help relieve gender dysphoria. And how is that different? At the end of the day both look in the mirror and see something they are not satisfied with, and they want to make it better, it is all about the body after all.
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Post by Elsariel on Mar 14, 2017 20:58:36 GMT
Yeah, no. I don't think body modification for aesthetics is even remotely the same as body modification to help relieve gender dysphoria. And how is that different? At the end of the day both look in the mirror and see something they are not satisfied with, and they want to make it better, it is all about the body after all. Key word: Dysphoria You are making it all sound way too simplistic. As stated, I think there is a biochemical and neurological component at play for people who have gender dysphoria that is not in play with people who want to get horns or their tongues split. This Reddit thread is a fine example of trans folks talking about gender dysphoria and if they think they'd still transition if gender roles weren't a thing.
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Post by Raga on Mar 14, 2017 21:14:27 GMT
I do think that in some hypothetical utopia (or dystopia, take your pick) in which no gender roles existed there would probably be no transgenderism. That isn't because I think gender has no biological factors, but because nobody would care about qualifying those biological factors and expressed behaviors as anything in particular. In that environment having a sexual body modification done would be of no more consequence than what color you decided to dye your hair and finding some particular set of physical traits (male or female) attractive would be no more noteworthy than me saying I like Gulf seafood more than sushi. I think the main stress of transgenderism isn't between brain sex/body sex but between self definition and societal expectation.
Inasmuch as I *do* think gender has some biological basis, I think that hypothetical utopia is a pipe dream short of genetically altering humanity in general.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2017 21:59:56 GMT
They're parroting post modernist deconstruction theory espoused by Jaques Derrida, but the vast majority of these people are either too ill read or ignorant to understand that this is where their dogma comes from, so they just regurgitate the party line with no concept of what the fuck they're talking about. Funnily enough a theory based on the pathological tendencies of Derrida is completely deranged and frankly nihilistic. I like how people randomly assume that your thoughts are not your own. God forbid someone comes to their own conclusions from observing the world. I am not a feminist, I haven't taken any gender studies classes, I just say what I consider to be rational and logical. Hahaha, not even close your position is unintelligible gibberish given that what you assert contradicts itself. Your conclusions are wrong, they're not supported by evidence, logic or even common sense for that matter. Read some of Derrida's work before you get into this, you are way out of your league with me. You claim gender is a social construct, right; so when are born, with body dysphoria, believing they're in the wrong body they hack at themselves to make their body more like a woman's, so there is such a thing as having the wrong brain in the wrong body or they wouldn't exist, so brain structure diverges between the sexes or the couldn't be born into the wrong body; ipso facto biologically male and female brains are different and as such different types of behaviour are derived from different brain structures ie: how men and women behave differently at a fundamental level is a biological determination which establishes the gender of a person; or you'd be able to re socialising , which has proved impossible because their brains are structured differently biologically, causing the conflict between brain and body resulting in the surgeries; not because gender is a social construct. Job done, case closed. Your points were crap and contradictory and this is why your position implodes ^ Now read it, comprehend it, and think what you said through, then grasp how stupid your position was. And that's not touching on how testosterone affects brain structure at the prenatal level and the subsequent effects on behaviour ie: biological determinism of gender causing certain behaviour predispositions in children ie: boys and girls. Or why men show a significantly higher preponderance towards autism than women, because of brain structure, structure of the brain being the root cause of certain behaviour characteristics. The fact you're parroting that drivel, tells me you're more than familiar with feminist theory which is underpinned by Derrida, actually it's a good thing you've never taken a gender studies class... because I'd be laughing my arse off right now, sociology classes are bad enough.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2017 22:06:02 GMT
gender is real but it's also not real but if it's not real then it's real but not really
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Post by dreth on Mar 14, 2017 23:19:41 GMT
*hic voice* Cant be no Transgender asari cuz asari aint got no other gender to trans too. Be like a asexual tape worm bein' trans, just dont make sense!
Tarnation.
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Post by duskwanderer on Mar 15, 2017 0:19:55 GMT
I think the whole thing is silly. I was pretty sure the topic was created as a joke.
I'd like to see new asari. But I'd like to see one as more than just space elves "We-are-so-superior."
I want an asari Sera
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Post by kaind on Mar 15, 2017 0:43:29 GMT
Key word: Dysphoria You are making it all sound way too simplistic. As stated, I think there is a biochemical and neurological component at play for people who have gender dysphoria that is not in play with people who want to get horns or their tongues split. This Reddit thread is a fine example of trans folks talking about gender dysphoria and if they think they'd still transition if gender roles weren't a thing. Your every thought is a chemical process, no one does anything without a reason, you are basically trying to diminishing people that are not satisfied with their bodies in other ways right now, calling their issues simple, not sure why.
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Post by kaind on Mar 15, 2017 0:58:37 GMT
You claim gender is a social construct, right; so when are born, with body dysphoria, believing they're in the wrong body they hack at themselves to make their body more like a woman's, so there is such a thing as having the wrong brain in the wrong body or they wouldn't exist, so brain structure diverges between the sexes or the couldn't be born into the wrong body; ipso facto biologically male and female brains are different and as such different types of behaviour are derived from different brain structures ie: how men and women behave differently at a fundamental level is a biological determination which establishes the gender of a person; or you'd be able to re socialising , which has proved impossible because their brains are structured differently biologically, causing the conflict between brain and body resulting in the surgeries; not because gender is a social construct. Job done, case closed. Your points were crap and contradictory and this is why your position implodes ^ Now read it, comprehend it, and think what you said through, then grasp how stupid your position was. And that's not touching on how testosterone affects brain structure at the prenatal level and the subsequent effects on behaviour ie: biological determinism of gender causing certain behaviour predispositions in children ie: boys and girls. Or why men show a significantly higher preponderance towards autism than women, because of brain structure, structure of the brain being the root cause of certain behaviour characteristics. The fact you're parroting that drivel, tells me you're more than familiar with feminist theory which is underpinned by Derrida, actually it's a good thing you've never taken a gender studies class... because I'd be laughing my arse off right now, sociology classes are bad enough. People are not born with body dysphoria they acquire it. I already said why trans people exist, they are a victim of trying to fit in with gender when they behavior doesn't match what society expects. It's a fact that male and female TEND to have differences they don't always and that is also a fact. There is no such thing as ''fundamentally'' different behavior between the sexes, that is just laughable. People behave differently regardless of their sex, fundamentally differently, and people acquire these different behaviors through their experiences. Yes biology also plays a role in peoples development, the amount of testosterone and estrogen people have plays a role in how they act, and hormone levels also vary from individual to individual. Also you keep talking about gender being a biological thing but you ignore the fact that not everyone even has a gender to begin with ( myself included ). To me the brain scans of trans people that show up as the brains of the opposite sex is a proof that brain structure can be the same regardless of sex, not the other way around. Also you keep saying that I contradict myself. Show me where, quote me.
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Post by Elsariel on Mar 15, 2017 1:52:50 GMT
Key word: Dysphoria You are making it all sound way too simplistic. As stated, I think there is a biochemical and neurological component at play for people who have gender dysphoria that is not in play with people who want to get horns or their tongues split. This Reddit thread is a fine example of trans folks talking about gender dysphoria and if they think they'd still transition if gender roles weren't a thing. Your every thought is a chemical process, no one does anything without a reason, you are basically trying to diminishing people that are not satisfied with their bodies in other ways right now, calling their issues simple, not sure why. LOL wut? I have done no such thing.
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Post by crusty on Mar 15, 2017 1:57:24 GMT
To me the brain scans of trans people that show up as the brains of the opposite sex is a proof that brain structure can be the same regardless of sex, not the other way around. Also you keep saying that I contradict myself. Show me where, quote me. "Antonio Guillamon‘s team at the National University of Distance Education in Madrid, Spain, think they have found a better way to spot a transsexual brain. In a study due to be published next month, the team ran MRI scans on the brains of 18 female-to-male transsexual people who’d had no treatment and compared them with those of 24 males and 19 females. They found significant differences between male and female brains in four regions of white matter – and the female-to-male transsexual people had white matter in these regions that resembled a male brain (Journal of Psychiatric Research, DOI: 10.1016/j.jpsychires.2010.05.006). “It’s the first time it has been shown that the brains of female-to-male transsexual people are masculinised,” Guillamon says." F So this really boils down to:
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Draining Dragon
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Post by Draining Dragon on Mar 15, 2017 2:00:02 GMT
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kaind
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Post by kaind on Mar 15, 2017 2:03:30 GMT
Your every thought is a chemical process, no one does anything without a reason, you are basically trying to diminishing people that are not satisfied with their bodies in other ways right now, calling their issues simple, not sure why. LOL wut? I have done no such thing. My bad then, I misinterpreted you calling one of the issues simplistic.
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kaind
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Post by kaind on Mar 15, 2017 2:07:51 GMT
"Antonio Guillamon‘s team at the National University of Distance Education in Madrid, Spain, think they have found a better way to spot a transsexual brain. In a study due to be published next month, the team ran MRI scans on the brains of 18 female-to-male transsexual people who’d had no treatment and compared them with those of 24 males and 19 females. They found significant differences between male and female brains in four regions of white matter – and the female-to-male transsexual people had white matter in these regions that resembled a male brain (Journal of Psychiatric Research, DOI: 10.1016/j.jpsychires.2010.05.006). “It’s the first time it has been shown that the brains of female-to-male transsexual people are masculinised,” Guillamon says." Ok so by looking at the MRI scans you can state with 100% certainty whether the scan belongs to a male or a female, and if the scan of a male belongs to a female body and vice verse then that person 100% has a gender dysphoria. Is this correct? So this really boils down to: People are not born with a gender so the Right button. Unless The MRI thing is correct, then I will take everything back.
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Post by The Biotic Trebuchet on Mar 15, 2017 3:18:31 GMT
I want an Asari that identify itself as one of these...
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Post by Gaston on Mar 15, 2017 3:22:01 GMT
An asari couldnt be truly transgender as the concept of male does not exist within the asari physiology.
A transgender asari would be the asari equivalent of a human furry. It would be more like a fetish rather than true transgenderism.
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