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Post by vonuber on Mar 31, 2017 18:26:26 GMT
Shepard fit the part perfectly. Strict, disciplined and professional, so when she/he was funny or emotional it really hit the mark. Everyone took Shep seriously. Ryder's on the other hand are more like kids fresh out of high-school. They feel totally out of place in the scenario and would be more suited to smoking pot. I just can't take them seriously, and to give them a state-of-the-art scout ship, ha! Maybe I would stretch it to a new skateboard. Shep frankly is a bit of a try-hard power fantasy wankfest. Ryder feels closer to a real person.
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Post by steppinrazor on Mar 31, 2017 18:38:13 GMT
Yes! I totally agree, been thinking this too. Like, I've been doing the opposite of what my Shepard would do. So, not the completely ruthless, get the job done at all costs type. I love that I get to play the diplomat. And I like that he jokes often. But it always felt like a treat when Shepard made a joke haha.
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Post by unwanted on Mar 31, 2017 19:03:44 GMT
Shepard fit the part perfectly. Strict, disciplined and professional, so when she/he was funny or emotional it really hit the mark. Everyone took Shep seriously. Ryder's on the other hand are more like kids fresh out of high-school. They feel totally out of place in the scenario and would be more suited to smoking pot. I just can't take them seriously, and to give them a state-of-the-art scout ship, ha! Maybe I would stretch it to a new skateboard. I think that's the point. Shepard is a hardened vet who has been considered to be a spectre whereas Ryder is a kid who had the postion of pathfinder thrusted onto them I understand that, but I think it would have been more believable if you had a commander Shepard type veteran, whom was a bodyguard to the Ryder's, and the one who Alex would pass over the role of pathfinder.
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on Mar 31, 2017 19:06:52 GMT
I think that's the point. Shepard is a hardened vet who has been considered to be a spectre whereas Ryder is a kid who had the postion of pathfinder thrusted onto them I understand that, but I think it would have been more believable if you had a commander Shepard type veteran, whom was a bodyguard to the Ryder's, and accordingly took up the role of pathfinder. I think a commander shepard type veteran would ruin the game. I don't want that in a game about exploration and wonder. Shepard fit the role he was required for in MET. It is not needed here. We are explorers, and not hardened fighters.
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Post by NormandySR3 on Mar 31, 2017 19:21:45 GMT
I don't know. I'm not buying the "Ryder is more relatable and human" argument. The whole reason why I go the the movies or play a game, is to be lifted up out of the ordinary human drama of daily life. I already see enough "human'ness" in real life; why would I want to see more of it in a game?
Shepard was a character I could look up to, and admire, someone I wish I could aspire to be. He had many virtues that are uncommon, like his perseverance, his prudence, his leadership skills, and his disarming simplicity and candor. He clearly realized the burden that was placed on his shoulders to save humanity; and he took that role seriously. In this sense, he was far more believable of a character that Ryder is. It takes a heroic person to do heroic things. And Shepard clearly personified a heroic kind of person.
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Post by setokaiba on Mar 31, 2017 19:22:00 GMT
I actually like Ryder way more than Shepard. Shepard was cool but he had the personality of burnt toast he just had great companions following him around.
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Post by vonuber on Mar 31, 2017 19:24:32 GMT
Shepard was a character I could look up to, and admire, someone I wish I could aspire to be. Shep is also thick (not realising species can breed between themselves for example), sadistic (numerous example of cruelty), genocidal, beats up women for no reason and a thief. Great aspirations there.
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Post by setokaiba on Mar 31, 2017 19:32:03 GMT
Shepard was a character I could look up to, and admire, someone I wish I could aspire to be. Shep is also thick (not realising species can breed between themselves for example), sadistic (numerous example of cruelty), genocidal, beats up women for no reason and a thief. Great aspirations there. He also worked for a terrorist group in ME2.
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Post by Scottphoto on Mar 31, 2017 19:37:41 GMT
I don't know. I'm not buying the "Ryder is more relatable and human" argument. The whole reason why I go the the movies or play a game, is to be lifted up out of the ordinary human drama of daily life. I already see enough "human'ness" in real life; why would I want to see more of it in a game? Shepard was a character I could look up to, and admire, someone I wish I could aspire to be. He had many virtues that are uncommon, like his perseverance, his prudence, his leadership skills, and his disarming simplicity and candor. He clearly realized the burden that was placed on his shoulders to save humanity; and he took that role seriously. In this sense, he was far more believable of a character that Ryder is. It takes a heroic person to do heroic things. And Shepard clearly personified a heroic kind of person.I get your point, but with the idea of the game being an RPG, there is people that want to experience the adventure as if it were them on it. Ryder felt more relatable on that sense because we are learning and experiencing things together with the character. Shepard however is already an experienced character, with a lot of things he has done in his career. I think it's also a matter of tone, the trilogy required a character like Shepard to do the things he does, it required a soldier. In Adromeda however, it's about starting a new life and you shape up what this new life should be. Yes there is battles and such, but the goal is to explore and establish good relationships between the races, create outposts etc. In a sequel game, I could see Ryder becoming a bit more like Shepard in a way, more matured and stronger to face threats. The creating outposts part being over for the most part, and instead focusing on learning and protecting what he/she established. Ryder is a more starting character that can show more a process of development, where as shepard was already on a good prime from the start.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 31, 2017 19:57:31 GMT
My Ryder is really starting to grow on me. So is the voice acting of Fryda Wolf.
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Post by NormandySR3 on Mar 31, 2017 20:00:15 GMT
I don't know. I'm not buying the "Ryder is more relatable and human" argument. The whole reason why I go the the movies or play a game, is to be lifted up out of the ordinary human drama of daily life. I already see enough "human'ness" in real life; why would I want to see more of it in a game? Shepard was a character I could look up to, and admire, someone I wish I could aspire to be. He had many virtues that are uncommon, like his perseverance, his prudence, his leadership skills, and his disarming simplicity and candor. He clearly realized the burden that was placed on his shoulders to save humanity; and he took that role seriously. In this sense, he was far more believable of a character that Ryder is. It takes a heroic person to do heroic things. And Shepard clearly personified a heroic kind of person.I get your point, but with the idea of the game being an RPG, there is people that want to experience the adventure as if it were them on it. Ryder felt more relatable on that sense because we are learning and experiencing things together with the character. Shepard however is already an experienced character, with a lot of things he has done in his career. I think it's also a matter of tone, the trilogy required a character like Shepard to do the things he does, it required a soldier. In Adromeda however, it's about starting a new life and you shape up what this new life should be. Yes there is battles and such, but the goal is to explore and establish good relationships between the races, create outposts etc. In a sequel game, I could see Ryder becoming a bit more like Shepard in a way, more matured and stronger to face threats. The creating outposts part being over for the most part, and instead focusing on learning and protecting what he/she established. Ryder is a more starting character that can show more a process of development, where as shepard was already on a good prime from the start. Interesting points. And you may be right: Thematically, a Ryder fits the story-line (one that is more modest in its goals) better than a Shepard would. We're only saving humanity after all, not the whole universe. lol. It would be nice to see Ryder, as you say, potentially grow into a Shepard in the next sequel. Character development is a huge component of good story-telling after all.
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Post by samdavidking on Mar 31, 2017 20:18:02 GMT
Ryder is a green scrub, a kid. Commander Shepard would break his nose and then drop him off the rooftop of a building after hearing some of Ryders snark.
Gun battles and space exploration isn't the domain of snarky snowflake comedians. Alec Ryder was more likable than Scott Ryder.
Disclaimer: I'm not an Andromeda hater.
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on Mar 31, 2017 20:19:59 GMT
Ryder is a green scrub, a kid. Commander Shepard would break his nose and then drop him off the rooftop of a building after hearing some of Ryders snark. Gun battles and space exploration isn't the domain of snarky snowflake comedians. Alec Ryder was more likable than Scott Ryder. Disclaimer: I'm not an Andromeda hater. I didn't like Alec Ryder. He seemed too rough around the edges. I don't like people like that.
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Post by NormandySR3 on Mar 31, 2017 20:23:45 GMT
As for Ryder needing to be more relatable, I get it. But keep in mind, real life tends to be different. The best leaders are precisely the one's that stand out from the crowd, who are different than everyone else, almost more-than-human. People will follow them to the death without hesitation. Think of Jesus, Ghandi, the Buddha. They are relatable in the sense that they are human. That ought to be enough.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 31, 2017 20:25:45 GMT
Gun battles and space exploration isn't the domain of snarky snowflake comedians. Like shit it ain't. In any case, I don't why being green is negative, and I don't see why having a more modest history should necessarily make a character less appealing, unless what you're really after most is an escalation of a power fantasy for each game. Shepard was fun, but Shepard is over, and I'd prefer not to retread that same old thing, and I thank baby fuckin' Buddha that we didn't start in Alec Ryder's place.
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Post by leo3abp on Mar 31, 2017 20:49:19 GMT
Shepard was a character I could look up to, and admire, someone I wish I could aspire to be. Shep is also thick (not realising species can breed between themselves for example), sadistic (numerous example of cruelty), genocidal, beats up women for no reason and a thief. Great aspirations there. Uhm, the fact that he had ability to do all those things you mentioned, does not mean he actually had to do them - it was a players choice to shape Shepard that way. Otherwise, following that twisted logic of yours, you can also brand all males as rapists from birth due to having male genitalia. In contrast to yours, my Shepard was a reasonable man, acting on the situation and doing what seemed to be right in a context of situations. While he was not holy and sinless by any stretch, sometimes doing things that had to be done no matter how controversial they might look for an average Yes-sheep, ultimately he was a good man. One who is larger than life yet does not afraid to take stance or get his hand dirty when situation demands. In other words, original trilogy allowed roleplaying ranging from simple good/bad mentality forcefully following single para/rene path, to a complicated characters with a solid reasoning and motivations, whether good or bad, as well as giving players the ability to deeply imprint themselves onto protagonist, which provided huge immersion factor. Now in Andromeda we have Ryder boy/girl-scout who can only be a good or sarcastic/goofy good characters, often poorly fitting into context of the game scenes and making it feel more like a teenage drama movie than an epic story of survival and exploration in a new galaxy. If Bioware introduced some character growth, showing how a person grows from goofy yersterday-teenager into a person that everyone (literally, according to a game) depends on, that would be ok, but the problem - there isn't any meaningful character growth. It seems that Ryder stays that way throughout entire game, and that makes impossible to take Ryder seriously, providing a strong sense of teenage drama or comedy if you want, and not a game about exploration of unknown and survival in another galaxy when all plans failed and things go south. I have no illusions that this game can not be fixed character and storywise. As Ian Frazier said: "That ship has sailed". I just hope that BW will learn from this, releases few patches to fix critical bugs and game problems, and then completely forgets that Andromeda (game, not the story about traveling to another galaxy) happened and moves on to make a new game with new protagonists and character cast, which hopefully will be able to recapture most things that made original trilogy so great - things like good and mature story writing with, with a reasonable amount of drama, relatable protagonist and characters that are deep and feel alive.
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Post by leo3abp on Mar 31, 2017 20:59:57 GMT
I don't know. I'm not buying the "Ryder is more relatable and human" argument. The whole reason why I go the the movies or play a game, is to be lifted up out of the ordinary human drama of daily life. I already see enough "human'ness" in real life; why would I want to see more of it in a game? Shepard was a character I could look up to, and admire, someone I wish I could aspire to be. He had many virtues that are uncommon, like his perseverance, his prudence, his leadership skills, and his disarming simplicity and candor. He clearly realized the burden that was placed on his shoulders to save humanity; and he took that role seriously. In this sense, he was far more believable of a character that Ryder is. It takes a heroic person to do heroic things. And Shepard clearly personified a heroic kind of person.I get your point, but with the idea of the game being an RPG, there is people that want to experience the adventure as if it were them on it. Ryder felt more relatable on that sense because we are learning and experiencing things together with the character. Shepard however is already an experienced character, with a lot of things he has done in his career. I think it's also a matter of tone, the trilogy required a character like Shepard to do the things he does, it required a soldier. In Adromeda however, it's about starting a new life and you shape up what this new life should be. Yes there is battles and such, but the goal is to explore and establish good relationships between the races, create outposts etc. In a sequel game, I could see Ryder becoming a bit more like Shepard in a way, more matured and stronger to face threats. The creating outposts part being over for the most part, and instead focusing on learning and protecting what he/she established. Ryder is a more starting character that can show more a process of development, where as shepard was already on a good prime from the start. You not taking into consideration that not all players are young inexperienced blanks, which seems to reinforce my point about issues of being able to relate to Ryder have in no small part to do with age. There are many people like me, with some life behind their belt who can relate much better and closer to Shepard, because his actions, tone, motivations and reasoning - all those of an experienced person who had seen his share of things - are more in line what those players would say or do in his proverbial shoes. Ryder on other hand feels way too unbelievable for his role due to how he talks or acts throughout a game, at least from a perspective of a mature person. While there is nothing wrong with teenage stories, I dont think anyone expected that from Mass Effect, especially after stellar original trilogy which fit well for more or less for players of all ages.
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Post by jpcab on Mar 31, 2017 21:00:36 GMT
I don't know. I'm not buying the "Ryder is more relatable and human" argument. The whole reason why I go the the movies or play a game, is to be lifted up out of the ordinary human drama of daily life. I already see enough "human'ness" in real life; why would I want to see more of it in a game? Shepard was a character I could look up to, and admire, someone I wish I could aspire to be. He had many virtues that are uncommon, like his perseverance, his prudence, his leadership skills, and his disarming simplicity and candor. He clearly realized the burden that was placed on his shoulders to save humanity; and he took that role seriously. In this sense, he was far more believable of a character that Ryder is. It takes a heroic person to do heroic things. And Shepard clearly personified a heroic kind of person.I get your point, but with the idea of the game being an RPG, there is people that want to experience the adventure as if it were them on it. Ryder felt more relatable on that sense because we are learning and experiencing things together with the character. Shepard however is already an experienced character, with a lot of things he has done in his career. I think it's also a matter of tone, the trilogy required a character like Shepard to do the things he does, it required a soldier. In Adromeda however, it's about starting a new life and you shape up what this new life should be. Yes there is battles and such, but the goal is to explore and establish good relationships between the races, create outposts etc. In a sequel game, I could see Ryder becoming a bit more like Shepard in a way, more matured and stronger to face threats. The creating outposts part being over for the most part, and instead focusing on learning and protecting what he/she established. Ryder is a more starting character that can show more a process of development, where as shepard was already on a good prime from the start. If that is so then i don t feel it. Within 5 minutes i was already into the role of Shepard. Ryder? So far a kid with an happy face.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 31, 2017 21:08:06 GMT
I also wouldn't say that I can very well identify with Ryder. I think even relating to him/her is not easy for me (haven't lost parents, haven't had a super advanced A.I. implanted in my head, haven't traveled to another galaxy or done anything equivalently stupid, etc.). I still like the change from Shepard though. It really feels fresh and new and the younger more lighthearted mentality fits very well with the explorer role where we are supposed to be able to wonder and be awed by the things we discover. In short, Ryder can be the guy saying: "Look at the size of that thing!!!" while Sheaprd would have had to be the guy saying "Cut the chatter red two."
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Post by samdavidking on Mar 31, 2017 21:09:49 GMT
Gun battles and space exploration isn't the domain of snarky snowflake comedians. Like shit it ain't. In any case, I don't why being green is negative, and I don't see why having a more modest history should necessarily make a character less appealing, unless what you're really after most is an escalation of a power fantasy for each game. Shepard was fun, but Shepard is over, and I'd prefer not to retread that same old thing, and I thank baby fuckin' Buddha that we didn't start in Alec Ryder's place. lol touche! Firefly was cancelled after 1 season though? I think Starlord would be a better counter example. But Chris Pratt is genuinely funny and likable, Chris Pratt is way more likable than Scott Ryder.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 31, 2017 21:11:46 GMT
Speaking of Star Lord, I wish we could play real music on the Tempest.
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Post by leo3abp on Mar 31, 2017 21:27:57 GMT
I also wouldn't say that I can very well identify with Ryder. I think even relating to him/her is not easy for me (haven't lost parents, haven't had a super advanced A.I. implanted in my head, haven't traveled to another galaxy or done anything equivalently stupid, etc.). I still like the change from Shepard though. It really feels fresh and new and the younger more lighthearted mentality fits very well with the explorer role where we are supposed to be able to wonder and be awed by the things we discover. In short, Ryder can be the guy saying: "Look at the size of that thing!!!" while Sheaprd would have had to be the guy saying "Cut the chatter red two." I see a lot of ppl throwing lines about lighthearted mentality fitting better for explorer, and completely forgetting that Ryder is not merely an explorer in his backyard - he is a Pathfinder, someone who pretty much solely responsible for lives of tens of thousands people. In some way he has even more responsibility than Shepard did. While Shep was, speaking figuratively, a tip of the spear, Ryder seems to be an entire proverbial spear. The way game puts it - there are essential things that cant literally happen without authorization from designated pathfinder, position that seems to be sort of hereditary for some reason, requiring another pathfinder to promote person into one. And while one can argue that Shepard had a a galaxy on his Shoulders, for Ryder this expedition IS galaxy in a sense. Because there is no way out of it and if they fail, then there will be no second chances, at least for this expedition. This brings a though that maybe BW shouldn't have rid of Alec Ryder in the prologue, and left him for at least a some protion of a game, where he would be doing his Pathfinder thing, making important decisions etc, while Ryder twins would be delegated to secondary tasks, like exploring and helping Ryder senior with his plans, while gaining valuable experience and growing as characters. Then somewhere along the game something could have happened with Alec, and Ryder jr. would be given reins. I think such approach could have only benefited story in pretty much all ways, except maybe "I want to be space Jesus now!"- thing. Hell, it would be completely ok to keep Alec in charge through entire game, leaving all hard choices for him, and keeping lighthearted mood for player characters, which would fit much better into such story.
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Post by Scottphoto on Mar 31, 2017 21:28:30 GMT
I get your point, but with the idea of the game being an RPG, there is people that want to experience the adventure as if it were them on it. Ryder felt more relatable on that sense because we are learning and experiencing things together with the character. Shepard however is already an experienced character, with a lot of things he has done in his career. I think it's also a matter of tone, the trilogy required a character like Shepard to do the things he does, it required a soldier. In Adromeda however, it's about starting a new life and you shape up what this new life should be. Yes there is battles and such, but the goal is to explore and establish good relationships between the races, create outposts etc. In a sequel game, I could see Ryder becoming a bit more like Shepard in a way, more matured and stronger to face threats. The creating outposts part being over for the most part, and instead focusing on learning and protecting what he/she established. Ryder is a more starting character that can show more a process of development, where as shepard was already on a good prime from the start. You not taking into consideration that not all players are young inexperienced blanks, which seems to reinforce my point about issues of being able to relate to Ryder have in no small part to do with age. There are many people like me, with some life behind their belt who can relate much better and closer to Shepard, because his actions, tone, motivations and reasoning - all those of an experienced person who had seen his share of things - are more in line what those players would say or do in his proverbial shoes. Ryder on other hand feels way too unbelievable for his role due to how he talks or acts throughout a game, at least from a perspective of a mature person. While there is nothing wrong with teenage stories, I dont think anyone expected that from Mass Effect, especially after stellar original trilogy which fit well for more or less for players of all ages. Well I'm not exactly saying the age is what makes him relatable, instead is that he is a new character and person on this world like we are on it getting to know everything from the beginning. He was never meant to fit the role of pathfinder, as the story progression is about how you were not meant for this role but were given the role anyway by your father. Ryder didn't train for this moment. By the end of the story's last moments you get to see Ryder being more serious and determined on the role and prove he/she was the right pathfinder. The story is more of a development of proving you are the pathfinder, despite a lot of people not believing in you right from the start like Addison. What I want to get at, is that the way the character is written, leaves a great open door for him to develop a sequel installment with more maturity and focus. With Shepard, I feel he is already pretty developed right from the start, as he already had experiences. Ryder is starting to experience the big things now. Also I'm sorry if it comes out I'm saying Ryder is the definitive more relatable, my argument was more explaining why others find him more relatable than Shepard. But some will find Shepard more relatable, some will find Ryder more relatable. Which in a way is what the thread talks about too "how is good to have a contrast different character, then a character that feels like another Shepard"
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Post by NormandySR3 on Mar 31, 2017 21:30:00 GMT
edit: nm...not a very well-written post.
I would only add: We have so many Scott Ryder's in this world, but so few Shepard's.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2017 21:37:05 GMT
Ah, you guys might just not be old enough. I could have mothered Ryder and I love her. My only of an age characters while playing the games were Bhaalspawn and Exile. Relax. Ryder invites you to adventure and not shoulder the weight of the universe singlehandedly. One day you will be old enough to appreciate it, heh. Trust me.
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