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Post by Iddy on Apr 25, 2017 17:42:37 GMT
And that's why we are enemies and there is no turning back(in all fairness it could have endend in WH if it wasn't for her plot protection)she started it in DAO with her deception and now she has gained a new powerful foe. I don't have to trust her into raising that kid after her attempt to use him as a pawn,especially now that she is bound with the will of someone else. I think, she doesn't want to "use" her son anymore, no matter he has old god soul or not. She changed a lot, as Leliana also said in Inquisition, but that was clear in the Wich Hunt, at least for me. She wants to be a real mother, not such kind was Flemeth toward her. Pfft. No, she didn't. The fact that Morrigan whines about how "Kieran had a destiny" after the end of the reunion with Flemeth shows me that she hasn't changed completely. She may have come to love her lab rat... but she still fully intended to use him as such.
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Post by Prince on Apr 25, 2017 20:19:03 GMT
I don't think they've wasted time,they have just passed it in Solas,so the subplot is still there,I just don't know what Weekes will create for it given the efforts Flemeth put to try to obtain it in DAO,it's utterly stupid for the writers to just leave this subplot incomplete,i mean she sent her daughter to a possible death to obtain this soul,if she didn't wanted to use it why even bother to gain it? My guess is that Solas has nothing to do with it,Flemeth used the soul of Urthemiel to summon Urthemiel's body,she did the same in DA2 to revive herself from her soul.
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Post by Aren on Apr 26, 2017 0:45:27 GMT
@walter Black Human decency? To Morrigan? Did she had it for the elves she suggested to sacrifice? So why I should give it to her? Morrigan's philosophy in Origins was "survival of the fittest", definitely not neutrality. Often the things she would suggest were undeniably cruel and evil and petty. Like blood sacrificing the alienage elves. I've seen people try to defend that one all the time in the past, but the truth of the matter is the tiny amount of power it could give you couldn't possibly be worth it, given you just kicked the ass of the guy who offered. Then she approves of stuff like viciously crushing Cammen's heart, killing the mages out of spite (her given reason is they allows themselves to be corraled like cattle so they deserve death),numerous other times she approves of the Warden being petty and vindictive and when you refuse that offer, she ditches you to live or die against the worst enemy you'll ever face, because she only traveled with you to try to wrangle that deal out of you in the end. That's a sneaky motivation that ends in abandoning you.It's definitely not nearly as bad of a betrayal as the chicanery Solas and Anders get up to, because Morrigan at least wasn't the cause of the problems you have to face, but it's still some shit. I think, she doesn't want to "use" her son anymore, no matter he has old god soul or not. She changed a lot, as Leliana also said in Inquisition, but that was clear in the Wich Hunt, at least for me. She wants to be a real mother, not such kind was Flemeth toward her. Pfft. No, she didn't. The fact that Morrigan whines about how "Kieran had a destiny" after the end of the reunion with Flemeth shows me that she hasn't changed completely. She may have come to love her lab rat... but she still fully intended to use him as such. Agreed,I always felt off about Morrigan's true motives and DAI hasn't really made me change that. You never truly know what her end goal is.Sure, she says she want to preserve knowledge at any cost but what does she gain from that? Could it be just a power (cliched I know) or something else? It all seems self serving because she never elaborate she just follow what Flemeth has told to her.
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Post by Hagoromo on May 12, 2017 15:40:00 GMT
Tbh I've never understood the inclusion of the Human son of Morrigan and I think is kind of nosense. If she remained until Redclieffe with the group that means she was there for at least 11/12 months,and in this 11 months she never showed any sign of being pregnant....but despite that she had a son from the Warden in Wh? And there are people who are saying that the OGB is the magical son between the two.....
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Post by Iddy on May 12, 2017 15:46:16 GMT
Tbh I've never understood the inclusion of the Human son of Morrigan and I think is kind of nosense. If she remained until Redclieffe with the group that means she was there for at least 11/12 months,and in this 11 months she never showed any sign of being pregnant....but despite that she had a son from the Warden in Wh? And there are people who are saying that the OGB is the magical son between the two..... That just means she got pregnant near the end of the story, before going to Redcliffe.
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Post by Hagoromo on May 12, 2017 16:02:46 GMT
That just means she got pregnant near the end of the story, before going to Redcliffe. That statement cannot be true,Morrigan can be romanced since the moment you leave Lothering thus the beginning of the game. During the end of the game if she is in love status(After all the quests of Flemeth and/or the mirror) she is unable to remain pregnant anymore.
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Post by formerfiend on May 12, 2017 16:05:08 GMT
Back before Inquisition came out and before we met Kieran, I suggested the following scenario;
A DLC in the vein of Leliana's Song where we play as the OGB all grown up; for players who made the OGB, it's canon, for players who didn't, it's a fun bit of alternate universe fiction to play around in.
Since that time Bioware reportedly stated that they had no intention of doing another DLC where you play as anyone other than the PC for the attached game. Or they may have said that prior to me making that suggestion and I just wasn't aware of it at the time, I don't remember, this was like five years ago.
I still think it's an interesting idea and I'd rather see them do something like that than, say, something like Jaws of Hakkon.
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Post by Hagoromo on May 12, 2017 16:08:43 GMT
Back before Inquisition came out and before we met Kieran, I suggested the following scenario; A DLC in the vein of Leliana's Song where we play as the OGB all grown up; for players who made the OGB, it's canon, for players who didn't, it's a fun bit of alternate universe fiction to play around in. But why they should be relegated to play something that doesn't exist for them just to give more contents to others people?
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Post by Mark7 on May 12, 2017 16:10:14 GMT
Bioware made the same reasonings that's why they never made anything like that. If they want a What IF scenario with Morrigan and OGB they better offer funding to Bioware with their own pockets.
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Post by Iddy on May 12, 2017 16:11:19 GMT
That just means she got pregnant near the end of the story, before going to Redcliffe. That statement cannot be true,Morrigan can be romanced since the moment you leave Lothering thus the beginning of the game. During the end of the game if she is in love status(After all the quests of Flemeth and/or the mirror) she is unable to remain pregnant anymore. Keyword here is "can". Back in DAO, the romance's pace was completely under the player's control, so depending on how you played it may or may not make sense. When I romanced Morrigan, I made sure that my Warden would have sex with her more than once and only maxed her approval near the end of the story.
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Post by formerfiend on May 12, 2017 16:12:00 GMT
That just means she got pregnant near the end of the story, before going to Redcliffe. That statement cannot be true,Morrigan can be romanced since the moment you leave Lothering thus the beginning of the game. During the end of the game if she is in love status(After all the quests of Flemeth and/or the mirror) she is unable to remain pregnant anymore. Origins is incredibly vague regarding the passage of time, and offers a fair amount of freedom in terms of when quests can be accomplished - for instance I usually saved dealing with Flemeth for after the Landsmeet(along with the Warden's Keep and Return to Ostagar DLC's so I could have more content to enjoy with Loghain). She stops wanting to sleep with the Warden after dealing with Flemeth because she realizes that she's fallen in love with him at that point and is feeling tremendously conflicted about the whole thing, but still, it's not inconceivable(pun intended) that she conceived later on in the story but before the night at Redcliffe. There's nothing impossible about that.
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Post by formerfiend on May 12, 2017 16:18:11 GMT
Back before Inquisition came out and before we met Kieran, I suggested the following scenario; A DLC in the vein of Leliana's Song where we play as the OGB all grown up; for players who made the OGB, it's canon, for players who didn't, it's a fun bit of alternate universe fiction to play around in. But why they should be relegated to play something that doesn't exist for them just to give more contents to others people? It's a DLC, it's optional, they don't have to play it if they don't want to if they really have a stick up their ass about only playing things that apply to their personal canon and never wanting to experience anything that deviates from it. I'd argue that "Why should people who did do the dark ritual be denied potential content because some people didn't do the ritual" is a perfectly valid counter argument. If one didn't do the ritual and one genuinely have no interest in a "what if?" scenario that doesn't actually impact one's world state but could be an enjoyable romp, regardless, I'd argue that logic follows that such an individual made such a decision specifically because they don't want that content, personally, given that the alternative to making the old god baby offers no possibility for equivalent content. Essentially it would allow people who chose the ritual to enjoy the unfolding of the story that their choice lead to while people who didn't chose the ritual don't have to worry about it because they specifically wanted to avoid such a thing in their personal continuity.
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Post by Hagoromo on May 12, 2017 16:21:13 GMT
That statement cannot be true,Morrigan can be romanced since the moment you leave Lothering thus the beginning of the game. During the end of the game if she is in love status(After all the quests of Flemeth and/or the mirror) she is unable to remain pregnant anymore. Keyword here is "can". Back in DAO, the romance's pace was completely under the player's control, so depending on how you played it may or may not make sense. When I romanced Morrigan, I made sure that my Warden would have sex with her more than once and only maxed her approval near the end of the story. That's kind of planned. If you planned it in order to avoid this "plot hole" that doesn't mean it isn't a plot hole for all those who didn't planned their playthroughs to be that way. Especially since as I've stated before Morrigan is more easy to get pregnant when the approval status is low than when it is higher "love status"
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Post by Hagoromo on May 12, 2017 16:33:33 GMT
But why they should be relegated to play something that doesn't exist for them just to give more contents to others people? It's a DLC, it's optional, they don't have to play it if they don't want to if they really have a stick up their ass about only playing things that apply to their personal canon and never wanting to experience anything that deviates from it. I'd argue that "Why should people who did do the dark ritual be denied potential content because some people didn't do the ritual" is a perfectly valid counter argument. If one didn't do the ritual and one genuinely have no interest in a "what if?" scenario that doesn't actually impact one's world state but could be an enjoyable romp, regardless, I'd argue that logic follows that such an individual made such a decision specifically because they don't want that content, personally, given that the alternative to making the old god baby offers no possibility for equivalent content. Essentially it would allow people who chose the ritual to enjoy the unfolding of the story that their choice lead to while people who didn't chose the ritual don't have to worry about it because they specifically wanted to avoid such a thing in their personal continuity. The parallel you made doesn't make much sense. The Archdemon soul is in Flemeth/Solas hands in the case of DR players it wasn't destroyed,that benefit(yes to me is a benefit)is earned only by Non-DR players. As for this What if Dlc. Bioware's primary objective is to sell their products,so the best thing to do for them is to create contents that make sense for everyone and not only for a certain group of people. Players who never had an OGB(because they never played DAO,or because they never finished DAO,or because they denied it's creation,or for whatever other reason)wouldn't care to buy such a specific DlC that wouldn't make sense for them.
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Post by Mark7 on May 12, 2017 16:44:49 GMT
formerfiend You already got the inclusion of the child and the fade scene in DAI(all exclusive contents). I think is the other way around,we got less contents overall,plus Gaider has forced Morrigan in DAI because of the OGB(which didn't existed for me)So I had her for no reason whatsoever, she did nothing in my game other than eat and sleep for free in Skyhold,all because her former employer(Celine) after the resolution With Gaspard and Briala didn't required her sevices anymore so she dumped her. If they are gonna continue this subplot in DA4 with Flemeth or Solas this time they should at least be forced to create a different scenario,because Solas can't be poweful the same if he doesn't have the AD soul,so he must got another Orb or something to fill the gap or fail.
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Post by formerfiend on May 12, 2017 16:47:35 GMT
Well I'll concede that the idea I had for a hypothetical "what if" DLC probably wouldn't work out so well now after how they resolved Kieran in DAI, which was satisfactory enough for me, granted.
Regarding the business savvy of such a move, given that Bioware's shtick is making games where, supposedly, player choice matters - a reputation that their playerbase is increasingly seeing through as overhyped at best specifically because they're in the mindset of(and to a considerable extent, limited by the reality of hardware) making games that cater to the broadest possible audience, thus rendering their divergent storylines moot in that no one choice can cause too big of a change from the main narrative, I think it would behoove them to occasionally cater to niches of their audience via DLC that specifically tackles majorly divergent plotlines from their games. I think they could sell that as making choices meaningful and letting you experience the consequences of them without drastically dividing up resources in a main game. And for some people who didn't pick that choice it could still be a nice, "road not traveled" experience.
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Post by Catilina on May 12, 2017 16:47:36 GMT
It's a DLC, it's optional, they don't have to play it if they don't want to if they really have a stick up their ass about only playing things that apply to their personal canon and never wanting to experience anything that deviates from it.
I'd argue that "Why should people who did do the dark ritual be denied potential content because some people didn't do the ritual" is a perfectly valid counter argument. If one didn't do the ritual and one genuinely have no interest in a "what if?" scenario that doesn't actually impact one's world state but could be an enjoyable romp, regardless, I'd argue that logic follows that such an individual made such a decision specifically because they don't want that content, personally, given that the alternative to making the old god baby offers no possibility for equivalent content.
Essentially it would allow people who chose the ritual to enjoy the unfolding of the story that their choice lead to while people who didn't chose the ritual don't have to worry about it because they specifically wanted to avoid such a thing in their personal continuity.
The parallel you made doesn't make much sense. The Archdemon soul is in Flemeth/Solas hands in the case of DR players it wasn't destroyed,that benefit(yes to me is a benefit)is earned only by Non-DR players. As for this What if Dlc. Bioware's primary objective is to sell their products,so the best thing to do for them is to create contents that make sense for everyone and not only for a certain group of people. Players who never had an OGB(because they never played DAO,or because they never finished DAO,or because they denied it's creation,or for whatever other reason)wouldn't care to buy such a specific DlC that wouldn't make sense for them. Old god soul, just for sake of accuracy. I really want to see the difference of the DR worlds and the non-DR worlds. (I suppose, sadly, I'll not...)
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Post by Hagoromo on May 12, 2017 17:02:17 GMT
Old god soul, just for sake of accuracy. It's more a tecnicism rather than accurancy. Regardless of how Morrigan wish to define it,that spirit It's not an original old god soul because it wasn't extracted from the original old god,it was extracted from the Archdemon. There is no way she could tell this soul it's the same as the original one or if it became more waker each time it was transferred into another host. And in fact in DAI her son was pretty weak compared to Urhtmiel(the original one).
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Post by Walter Black on May 13, 2017 0:07:34 GMT
It's a DLC, it's optional, they don't have to play it if they don't want to if they really have a stick up their ass about only playing things that apply to their personal canon and never wanting to experience anything that deviates from it. I'd argue that "Why should people who did do the dark ritual be denied potential content because some people didn't do the ritual" is a perfectly valid counter argument. If one didn't do the ritual and one genuinely have no interest in a "what if?" scenario that doesn't actually impact one's world state but could be an enjoyable romp, regardless, I'd argue that logic follows that such an individual made such a decision specifically because they don't want that content, personally, given that the alternative to making the old god baby offers no possibility for equivalent content. Essentially it would allow people who chose the ritual to enjoy the unfolding of the story that their choice lead to while people who didn't chose the ritual don't have to worry about it because they specifically wanted to avoid such a thing in their personal continuity. The parallel you made doesn't make much sense. The Archdemon soul is in Flemeth/Solas hands in the case of DR players it wasn't destroyed,that benefit(yes to me is a benefit)is earned only by Non-DR players. As for this What if Dlc. Bioware's primary objective is to sell their products,so the best thing to do for them is to create contents that make sense for everyone and not only for a certain group of people. Players who never had an OGB(because they never played DAO,or because they never finished DAO,or because they denied it's creation,or for whatever other reason)wouldn't care to buy such a specific DlC that wouldn't make sense for them. There were probably many players who had little interest in playing as Leliana or a Darkspawn, but Bioware made those DLCs anyway. The Darkspawn Chronicles was clearly an altermate reality/Warden and/or Alistair's nightmare, Leliana says herself that this is simply one version of the tale.
You know, this reminds me of a brainstorming session some friends of mine had on a possible DA2 flashback DLC; Hawke finds and reads a diary of Malcolm's that details his and Leandra's original escape from Kirkwall. Malcolm would have been customizable, Leandra would have been a rogue, Ser Maurevar Carver would've been support/sword and board warrior, and maybe a Mabari or a doomed elf for DPS since Tug died last time. Potential enemies would include rival mercs, Templars, the Comte Leandre was originally betrothed to, and a stalker ex of Malcolm's that summons demons. Whether you used diplomacy and bribery, stealth or force and with whom, would determine your in game rewards. When you run into Gamlen you can talk him down, or knock him out . The adventure would culminate describing a Leandre and Malcolm love scene and Hawke quits reading, but certain Companions want to finish . Ah well, if only in fan fiction...
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Post by secretrare on May 13, 2017 0:17:16 GMT
The parallel you made doesn't make much sense. The Archdemon soul is in Flemeth/Solas hands in the case of DR players it wasn't destroyed,that benefit(yes to me is a benefit)is earned only by Non-DR players. As for this What if Dlc. Bioware's primary objective is to sell their products,so the best thing to do for them is to create contents that make sense for everyone and not only for a certain group of people. Players who never had an OGB(because they never played DAO,or because they never finished DAO,or because they denied it's creation,or for whatever other reason)wouldn't care to buy such a specific DlC that wouldn't make sense for them. There were probably many players who had little interest in playing as Leliana or a Darkspawn, but Bioware made those DLCs anyway. The Darkspawn Chronicles was clearly an altermate reality/Warden and/or Alistair's nightmare, Leliana says herself that this is simply one version of the tale.
It doesn't matter what kind of contrived parallel are being made with the others DAO Dlc,a DLC focused on OGB(which doesn't even exist any more)will never happen. Beside Darkspawns Chronicles didn't required great efforts to be made by BioWare,there wasn't any voice actor NOR any new scene or environment in that Dlc,while the DLC of Leliana was universally valid for everyone,and both DLC were released after DAO but before of DA2,not 8 years later down the road. I think is kind of pointless to debate about something that will not be made. Short story is,OGB was destroyed by those players who negated it's creation,that possibility became the killer of this whole subplot,same for the warden who could be killed in the processo,that possibility killed the character.
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Post by Walter Black on May 13, 2017 0:28:57 GMT
There were probably many players who had little interest in playing as Leliana or a Darkspawn, but Bioware made those DLCs anyway. The Darkspawn Chronicles was clearly an altermate reality/Warden and/or Alistair's nightmare, Leliana says herself that this is simply one version of the tale.
It doesn't matter what kind of contrived parallel are being made with the others DAO Dlc,a DLC focused on OGB(which doesn't even exist any more)will never happen. Beside Darkspawns Chronicles didn't required great efforts to be made by BioWare,there wasn't any voice actor NOR any new scene or environment in that Dlc,while the DLC of Leliana was universally valid for everyone,and both DLC were released after DAO but before of DA2,not 8 years later down the road. I think is kind of pointless to debate about something that will not be made. Short story is,OGB was destroyed by those players who negated it's creation,that possibility became the killer of this whole subplot,same for the warden who could be killed in the processo,that possibility killed the character. Here is the point.
Here is your post.
We know it's never going to happen. Some of us just like discussing what if scenarios just for the hell of it. If people engaging in silly little fun offends so much, lighten up .
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2017 12:05:20 GMT
NO! His job is done. Unless i get to see a reunion between him and my Morrigan romancer, than in which case bring em back. I need to see that, because it would simply be too cute for my girly sense to handle...
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Post by Harpie Lady on May 13, 2017 16:42:09 GMT
And for some people who didn't pick that choice it could still be a nice, "road not traveled" experience. Why I should be interested into playing something just for the sake of addressing an issue which I have resolved with a final solution in DAO? You find it nice I do not,I think it doesn't make sense.What Bioware did in DAI was shifting the plot line from a non mandatory character(the child)into a mandatory one(Flemeth/Solas) so now the problem is of DR players we don't have to share it just for the sake of......what exactly?
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Post by Hagoromo on May 13, 2017 16:47:00 GMT
That statement cannot be true,Morrigan can be romanced since the moment you leave Lothering thus the beginning of the game. During the end of the game if she is in love status(After all the quests of Flemeth and/or the mirror) she is unable to remain pregnant anymore. Origins is incredibly vague regarding the passage of time, and offers a fair amount of freedom in terms of when quests can be accomplished - for instance I usually saved dealing with Flemeth for after the Landsmeet(along with the Warden's Keep and Return to Ostagar DLC's so I could have more content to enjoy with Loghain). She stops wanting to sleep with the Warden after dealing with Flemeth because she realizes that she's fallen in love with him at that point and is feeling tremendously conflicted about the whole thing, but still, it's not inconceivable(pun intended) that she conceived later on in the story but before the night at Redcliffe. There's nothing impossible about that. It's impossible(at least for the laws which reality is made of).The personal feeling of Morrigan's have nothing to do about what I was adressing,which even the other user admitted is a plot hole unless there is a carefully planification from the player part in regard of the romance to avoid it. The fact that the passage of time is vague doesn't change the fact that the blight is 1 year long and that Lothering happens at the beginning of that year,and if the Warden concieved this child right after Lothering there is no way that it had no effect for an entire year on Morrigan's body. That's why I've stated this "human child" seem more magical than the OGB.
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Post by Walter Black on May 13, 2017 20:45:40 GMT
It's funny how most pro-Dark Ritual players are completely fine with Kieran not appearing for those who didn't choose it, yet many anti-DR players rage and froth at the mouth that anyone has him at all .
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