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Post by setokaiba on Apr 15, 2017 16:53:56 GMT
But that is the same for most Bioware games. In ME1 every squadmate is just there to tell you the history of their r people, biotics, or just their family. In ME2 we all you needed was Mordin and Miranda just for the cure and to stay in contact with TIM. DAO all you need for story purpose is Allister and Morrigan. I haven't played DA2 but in DAI all you need is Cassandra and Solas. Not quite. In ME1 you are being introduced to the universe, so the perspective of all these players is important to shape the new world or IP. In DAO all you need Allister and Morrigan and guess what? You can kick out or kill or turn away everyone else, none of them are forced upon you. For the longest time I would tell Wynne and Leliana to beat it. In fact you can ask Morrigan to leave and she will only come back on the eve of the final battle. For ME2 I absolutely felt that everyone brought something to the table, and the final mission justified the time and effort I invested in every one of them. I loved the way all the squad members fit together perfectly like pieces of a puzzle at the end. Loyalty missions mean something when the game is about the team... Its not the same in ME:A. On my first playthrough most of these characters were grating on me and I found myself talking to them only to advance the plot, and frequently skipping whole sections of the conversation. I really did not care about any of them. I finished ME:T countless times and I still listen to each conversation and probe every option. Not really unless you think the Volus and Elcor on the Citadel are key to the story because they have the same purpose as your squadmates in ME1. They are just there to give you backstory and that is perfectly fine with me but I'm not going to pretend they are somehow different than MEA squad. What does Thane.Grunt, Tali, Garrus, Jack, and Jacob bring to the story? I honestly don't see how the squadmates in ME:A are worse than any sqaud you get in any other bioware game. Why did the squadmates in MEA so annoying to you? Is it because they didn't tie into the story much in anyway? You just don't like their personalities?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2017 17:50:43 GMT
Because it's bollocks and completely rewrites the Geth from ME2? Well, yes and no. It's just Tali saying this, so you could write it off as just her own sense of spirituality or whatever. It doesn't really say much about the geth as it does her regard for them. In any case, my main problem with this scene is the framing around the reaper code. It's real advantage is that the geth would no longer be at risk of being reduced as their numbers dwindle in the war, but instead is presented simply as a means for them to be "alive". I would also suggest that it's pertinent because that was the very question that started the geth-quarian conflict. Tali responding in the affirmative was symbolic in ending the conflict. What the hell did thane bring to the table? He's the walking codex entry on drell and their relationship with the hanar.
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Post by vonuber on Apr 15, 2017 18:00:18 GMT
I would also suggest that it's pertinent because that was the very question that started the geth-quarian conflict. Tali responding in the affirmative was symbolic in ending the conflict. Again, only because they retconned the Geth (and Legion in particular) to be pinnochio instead of their far more interesting incarnation in ME2 as a collective. Let's not even go down the route of how so many individual programs on a single platform (or server!) become individuals.
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Post by smilesja on Apr 15, 2017 18:14:53 GMT
Origins did a much better job of introducing the player to their universe than ME 1. The player actually gets experience the customs and traditions of the races rather getting bombarded with info dumps by the species in ME 1
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2017 18:47:23 GMT
I did enjoy those bits of levity, but I really wanted more meat to sink my teeth into. When it was done, I was kind of bummed. I did enjoy the ride, but I hoped for something on par with the kind of story telling we got with ME1. That felt big, epic, and like there was more ahead but we still made a difference in the here and now - and mostly like we understood more walking away than as if we just got there. The most we know is more about the kett and what they are up to, a bit more about how the scourge came to be, and a bit more about the purpose of the vaults which we basically figured out but then we had some rock solid evidence for understanding. By comparison at the end of ME1 we know exactly what is going to happen, that we may have staved it off for a little bit or a lot. We know about indoctrination. We've seen it. We have seen a reaper. We understand some of their logic. We have actually met and talked with one. We know exactly what happened to the protheans. Lots of answers with some more questions but mostly answers. If we're going to compare ME1 with MEA, let's start by acknowledging the differences in plot structure. ME1's plot had a laser focus on stopping Saren, Sovereign, and the geth. It also had a fair bit of side content, most of which was general world-building (or busywork) and had nothing to do with the main plot. MEA has multiple major plotlines that contribute to the primary objective of finding/settling a new home. - Making worlds viable for settlement. Each world had unique characteristics and challenges, and presented its own storyline/sub-plot. - Forming an alliance with the angara. There is a lot of content here, including multiple factions and politics. - Dealing with the kett. Satisfying the primary objective really only required us to thwart the immediate threat, but we're left open to more interference from them in the future. (the Archon has some similarities with Sovereign here). - Finding the other arks, learning about the remnant, studying the scourge, trying to patch wounds left by the Nexus uprising - all important in their own right, but perhaps not needed to meet our primary objective. I guess it's easy to lose sight of the primary objective (finding/settling a new home) when you're dealing with so much other content - and I think that's the big difference here. The only role the remnant play in MEA is supplying terraforming tech (prothean beacons, conduit, re-programming keepers, Citadel control software). The scourge remains mysterious and presents a hazard. The kett have been temporarily thwarted, but may be back. So there's still plenty of questions left, and more conflict upon which to build (Cerberus, genophage, quarian-geth conflict, reapers are still out there).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2017 18:52:47 GMT
I would also suggest that it's pertinent because that was the very question that started the geth-quarian conflict. Tali responding in the affirmative was symbolic in ending the conflict. Again, only because they retconned the Geth (and Legion in particular) to be pinnochio instead of their far more interesting incarnation in ME2 as a collective. I don't deny that the portrayal of the geth was... problematic. But it's still true that the whole conflict started when geth started asking if they had souls, and Tali's eventual response in ME3 brought that full-circle.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2017 19:55:36 GMT
In retrospect as I think about all the squaddies, Liam and PB might be the only ones I wish I could leave at the nexus. I know they both have their own kind of endearing thing going on but they also have an annoying thing going on. I think I come to like Cora, Jaal and Drack the most by the end of their loyalty missions. Vetra is likable but very bland. I know I am supposed to care that she cares so much about her sister but it just doesn't really endear her to me. I wish we had gotten to see for ourselves more of her working the angles and getting things we needed. Instead we see that she can't even rummage up some popcorn which is sold right there on kadara where she does business in a cutscene.
I really want for us to get some great quality well written DLC. I think that is going to make or break this game for me. The litmus test for me is that I can go back to ME1 now years later having played it probably a few dozen times over the years since purchase and still enjoy it. I did probably a dozen runs of it the first year I had it. It took a lot for me to tire of it. MEA? finishing my third run now and cannot fathom a fourth at least not for a long time. Going back to ME1 instead and doing another run through MET starting mon or tues.
I do like MEA but it's not anywhere near as enjoyable to me as ME1. Plus side is that if the DLC is great it can really help add to the game and might pick up some of the slack for me anyway.
Personally I think they should go back to more straight forward Loyalty missions. I get bogged down in all their little errands and mail check, shuttle busing. That doesn't help me bond with a character. It just feels like I am now the local errand runner for them. And that is where I start to lose interest in the game and get bored.
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Post by griffith82 on Apr 15, 2017 19:59:45 GMT
I would also suggest that it's pertinent because that was the very question that started the geth-quarian conflict. Tali responding in the affirmative was symbolic in ending the conflict. Again, only because they retconned the Geth (and Legion in particular) to be pinnochio instead of their far more interesting incarnation in ME2 as a collective. Let's not even go down the route of how so many individual programs on a single platform (or server!) become individuals. Eh? I thought it was fine. A natural evolution of the Geth.
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Post by smilesja on Apr 15, 2017 20:12:40 GMT
In retrospect as I think about all the squaddies, Liam and PB might be the only ones I wish I could leave at the nexus. I know they both have their own kind of endearing thing going on but they also have an annoying thing going on. I think I come to like Cora, Jaal and Drack the most by the end of their loyalty missions. Vetra is likable but very bland. I know I am supposed to care that she cares so much about her sister but it just doesn't really endear her to me. I wish we had gotten to see for ourselves more of her working the angles and getting things we needed. Instead we see that she can't even rummage up some popcorn which is sold right there on kadara where she does business in a cutscene. I really want for us to get some great quality well written DLC. I think that is going to make or break this game for me. The litmus test for me is that I can go back to ME1 now years later having played it probably a few dozen times over the years since purchase and still enjoy it. I did probably a dozen runs of it the first year I had it. It took a lot for me to tire of it. MEA? finishing my third run now and cannot fathom a fourth at least not for a long time. Going back to ME1 instead and doing another run through MET starting mon or tues. I do like MEA but it's not anywhere near as enjoyable to me as ME1. Plus side is that if the DLC is great it can really help add to the game and might pick up some of the slack for me anyway. Personally I think they should go back to more straight forward Loyalty missions. I get bogged down in all their little errands and mail check, shuttle busing. That doesn't help me bond with a character. It just feels like I am now the local errand runner for them. And that is where I start to lose interest in the game and get bored. I'm happy that the loyalty missions are long. You get to know the character better.
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Post by vonuber on Apr 15, 2017 20:27:36 GMT
Eh? I thought it was fine. A natural evolution of the Geth. Well not really- they flat out reject it in ME2 - like they rejected the reaper offer. Also how does Legion get consensus for the decision exactly? And what happens to the other programs in a platform? Or their 'real' version on the server (because a platform is only a remote thing, not where the Geth are)? Note if I recall correctly the whole 'does this unit have a soul thing' came from ME3 in the geth consensus? Am I correct on that? Basically, they ganked them in ME3. Made them want to be a girl just like shep, another boring race of rubberface humans. Legion in ME2 was interesting. ME3 Legion was just a pale imitation of the real thing - it's why I prefer the Geth VI in ME3.
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Post by griffith82 on Apr 15, 2017 20:48:44 GMT
Eh? I thought it was fine. A natural evolution of the Geth. Well not really- they flat out reject it in ME2 - like they rejected the reaper offer. Also how does Legion get consensus for the decision exactly? And what happens to the other programs in a platform? Or their 'real' version on the server (because a platform is only a remote thing, not where the Geth are)? Note if I recall correctly the whole 'does this unit have a soul thing' came from ME3 in the geth consensus? Am I correct on that? Basically, they ganked them in ME3. Made them want to be a girl just like shep, another boring race of rubberface humans. Legion in ME2 was interesting. ME3 Legion was just a pale imitation of the real thing - it's why I prefer the Geth VI in ME3. Not a retcon situation changed that simple.
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Post by peabuddie on Apr 15, 2017 20:59:59 GMT
Is there some kind of handbook that says; "If someone likes older games better than subsequent games, respond with rose colored glasses comment." I understand you're trying to be sarcastic and facetious, but it's very true that things in the past are often remembered much differently than they actually were. We remember them like they were perfect and flawless when in fact, they were far from it. It doesn't just apply to games either. Memories of movies, relationships, experiences, etc are altered based on our current perception of them, not our initial experience. I love the ME trilogy, but it's unfair to compare ME:A to those three games because those three games and the characters within hold such a special place in many of our hearts. Characters like Garrus and Tali weren't initially "love at first sight" for many. It took time for them to grow. Garrus became Archangel and singlehandedly fought the gangs of Omega. Tali made big contributions to her people through her pilgrimage. We were all a part of their growth through three games and DLC. To compare ME:A to all that is setting up ME:A to lose. So yeah, many people do remember the trilogy through rose tinted glasses. This conclusion was not reached by reading any "handbook", but through objective observation and common sense. Myself and many others aren't "remembering" anything. We happen to replay these games repeatedly. There is no nostalgia for the "good ol' days". Those days haven't ended. I play through the whole trilogy probably twice a year. I just played it recently. So many of us aren't looking back at what was, it's still a present experience right here, right now.
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Post by aglomeracja on Apr 15, 2017 21:37:15 GMT
In ME1 you get a whole new universe with 12 new alien races, citadel, normandy, mako etc. You become a first human specter and get a job of stopping Saren and everything is focused around that- the story. Your companions serve the story.
In ME2 you start working for the least expected ally, get a mission to stop collectors, and recruit people who can make it possible. Your companions are the story, everything is focused around them.
In MEA you're supposed to establish new outposts, make planets viable and stop the Kett, but you do that mostly through scanning things, running\driving around and doing chores. The game is focused around that, even finding arks requires mostly traveling to different planets and having short concersation. Even if camera changes to cinematic mode usually you just watch "talking heads", and then bam! Go to Tempest-> fly to x-> board the ship-> talk to SAM-> congrats, you found the ark.
Everything in Andromeda looks interesting as a concept, but when you're actually playing it, it feels like yet another "fedex".
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2017 21:49:19 GMT
Not quite. In ME1 you are being introduced to the universe, so the perspective of all these players is important to shape the new world or IP. In DAO all you need Allister and Morrigan and guess what? You can kick out or kill or turn away everyone else, none of them are forced upon you. For the longest time I would tell Wynne and Leliana to beat it. In fact you can ask Morrigan to leave and she will only come back on the eve of the final battle. For ME2 I absolutely felt that everyone brought something to the table, and the final mission justified the time and effort I invested in every one of them. I loved the way all the squad members fit together perfectly like pieces of a puzzle at the end. Loyalty missions mean something when the game is about the team... Its not the same in ME:A. On my first playthrough most of these characters were grating on me and I found myself talking to them only to advance the plot, and frequently skipping whole sections of the conversation. I really did not care about any of them. I finished ME:T countless times and I still listen to each conversation and probe every option. Not really unless you think the Volus and Elcor on the Citadel are key to the story because they have the same purpose as your squadmates in ME1. They are just there to give you backstory and that is perfectly fine with me but I'm not going to pretend they are somehow different than MEA squad. What does Thane.Grunt, Tali, Garrus, Jack, and Jacob bring to the story? I honestly don't see how the squadmates in ME:A are worse than any sqaud you get in any other bioware game. Why did the squadmates in MEA so annoying to you? Is it because they didn't tie into the story much in anyway? You just don't like their personalities? For me, only Liam and PB were annoying because he was sort of a headcase who was losing it regularly and she bordered on rude more than once. Cora going on about thee huntress life was strange as she was a human. Her issue around her biotic history was kind of a kaiden thing rehashed. But she grew on me kind of. Conversely, I never found listening to any of the ones you listed above tedious, at least not in the first run or two. Jack was tiresome right out of the gate to me. I mentally check out on people who behave like her with that kind of hostility but she still brought a unique perspective on cerberus. Tali brought a whole new way of life to me on a race I didn't know about. Garrus brought the perspective of someone whose species was supposed to behave a certain way which he seemed to want to fly in the face of along with his issues with his father. I gained more insight into Turians in general from him as well as feeling like he was different from the standard cut turian. Grunt was unique because he was tank born. He had zero of the Krogan issues as a result. He knew things about them but it hadn't been drilled into him for a lifetime. As a result he was more interesting due to this uniqueness. Jack, while not my favorite at first, brought a perspective on Tim and/or cerberus that was good to know. It contrasted against Miranda who was oblivious or choosing to ignore/deny that aspect of them. Jacob had the unique perspective of what he had seen from his time with cerberus vs the alliance. He had a counterpoint though it was limited by his own personal experiences. That he ended up on the ship with me and his perspective being 'cerberus is getting it done when alliance was not' was a bit interesting given Tim wanted me to ally myself with him and would want to present the best image of cerberus he could. Thane taught me about the memories of drell and the kind of service they provided for the hannar for saving them. It was the last thing I would have expected. Also, the ramification of such a life, not unexpected but unexpected that he would kind of find his way out only to get pulled back in. Every one of them gave me valuable insight into the character and their species. Sure, I could have read a codex, but that would be rather dry. This time we already knew about these races except for Jaal which is probably why he is the most interesting. But what happens then is that they all end up being cut from the same or similar mold which begins to lead to some stereotypes. PB stereotypes asari for us then behaves like a petulant child in an attempt to be different. They couldn't give her edgy hair so they gave that to cora and stuck a streak across PB's eyes instead. Liam was the mess that Jacob wasn't. Cora whined about being a biotic so we now have the whining human biotic as a thing with her and Kaidan being members of that club. Vetra is a bit like Garrus. Daddy issues. But close to her sister. Mommy issues. Is this a turian thing? To reject the parent and be rejected by the parent? Drack has the same issues as Wrex and all krogran which is why Grunt was a breath of fresh air. The thing is that in MEA they really don't come up with any really fresh spins on things. We revisit the same ones but placed on different characters. When they try to break a stereotype like Liam not having it all by the book and together or PB being this edgy asari it's sort of like they tried too hard and went too far. PB and Liam are like adolescents now. It's essentially all what we have seen before with a new spin, not a fresh one with the exception of the two that are complete opposites and come off like teens as a result.
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Post by griffith82 on Apr 16, 2017 20:14:26 GMT
I love moments like this.
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Post by decafhigh on Apr 16, 2017 20:50:23 GMT
I love moments like this. MEA has one of those:
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Post by Exile Isan on Apr 16, 2017 21:02:41 GMT
Note if I recall correctly the whole 'does this unit have a soul thing' came from ME3 in the geth consensus? Am I correct on that? No, it started in ME2. Legion tells you that in one of the conversations he has on the Normandy.
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Post by griffith82 on Apr 16, 2017 22:30:27 GMT
Note if I recall correctly the whole 'does this unit have a soul thing' came from ME3 in the geth consensus? Am I correct on that? No, it started in ME2. Legion tells you that in one of the conversations he has on the Normandy. I love that. But it's tricky to get. You need to save several missions for after the suicide mission. Bare minimum four missions to see it all.
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Post by griffith82 on Apr 16, 2017 22:31:22 GMT
I love moments like this. MEA has one of those:
Ha! And they used a salarian too! Nice.
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