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Post by R'Shara on Apr 14, 2017 15:30:54 GMT
So the fact that Andromeda exists, there are advanced civilizations, and even AI, and yet there was no giant organics vs synthetics war that exterminated all organic life in the galaxy, clearly exposes the Reaper's claim to be bogus. The Reapers claimed that if they didn't exterminate the advanced civilizations before they developed too-advanced-AI, then the AIs would eventually exterminate ALL organic life in the galaxy. However, Andromeda has never been visited by the Reapers. It has/had an advanced civilization (Remnant) that even built AI. But unless whatever destroyed the Remnant was their AI turning on them (seems unlikely), then they were advancing along just swimmingly. I know that the Jaarden were attacked by something called the Opposition, but given the storyline, and the abundance of automated technology, it seems unlikely the Opposition is an AI. Most likely whatever created the kett. I mean, I think most of us hated the ME3 ending idea in the first place, but this seems to prove that it's utter bunk. Thoughts?
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Post by Seera1024 on Apr 14, 2017 15:35:51 GMT
The organics that coded the Reapers in the first place gave them information that when combined with the cycles they witnessed told them that synthetics always fought against their creators.
The Reapers made the wrong conclusion from the data they were given. Which can happen to any computer program if given incomplete data.
Andromeda having advanced civilizations that appear to have gone extinct from not a synthetic vs organic war does not mean the MET Reaper explanations were bogus.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 14, 2017 15:38:25 GMT
Let's not go into that... We're probably all thinking the same anyway, that BioWare know they kinda fucked up with ME3's ending and Reaper explanation and now we're just kinda ignoring it as we go to another galaxy.
I'm not saying your point doesn't stand. It certainly does and I believe me and others pointed this out too when Mac claimed on Twitter "Absolutely not" about the fact that there should be the same synthetic singularity in Andromeda as there hypothetically would've been in Milky Way.
They know, I'm sure they do. They're just trying to tiptoe around it to get the best they can out of their new series.
That said, it does strike me as silly how much Andromeda wants to discuss the theme about synthetics and AI again considering how much it reminds you of ME3's ending. It's a very typical sci-fi thing, done to death even, but it's always an easy way to create some more depth I guess.
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Post by OdanUrr on Apr 14, 2017 15:40:32 GMT
The Catalyst's argument is that that conflict is inevitable and that it will happen eventually. Just because we haven't seen it yet doesn't disprove his thesis.
Also, what AI did the Remnant create? The only AI I can remember is the one on Voeld. Truth be told, I was surprised the Kett didn't have any of their own and even thought at one point they were going to steal the one on Voeld.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 14, 2017 15:48:07 GMT
Was the AI on Voeld created by Remnant or the angara? For some reason I thought it was Remnant, but it might be angaran.
If it was the angara, then it exposes the lie even more. Because the angara weren't anywhere near to exterminating themselves, even with AIs.
The Reapers came every 50k years. Their timing is apparently impeccable since the quarians had JUST developed the geth and they'd JUST had that whole conflict brewing. They've never been to Andromeda, so it's clearly been more than 50k years, and organic life did not go extinct.
I seem to remember something about Remnant being around for a couple million years? So yeah...
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 14, 2017 15:52:57 GMT
Wait a minute. People actually thought that the Catalyst was right about the supposed problem?
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Post by decafhigh on Apr 14, 2017 15:53:45 GMT
Let's not go into that... We're probably all thinking the same anyway, that BioWare know they kinda fucked up with ME3's ending and Reaper explanation and now we're just kinda ignoring it as we go to another galaxy. Yeah it is kinda telling when to continue one of the most popular video game series ever they have to ship you off 2 million light years away and completely ignore any of the possible outcomes of the OT. If that isn't a big "boy we really screwed that up" I don't know what is.
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Post by Element Zero on Apr 14, 2017 16:01:19 GMT
Was the AI on Voeld created by Remnant or the angara? For some reason I thought it was Remnant, but it might be angaran. If it was the angara, then it exposes the lie even more. Because the angara weren't anywhere near to exterminating themselves, even with AIs. The Reapers came every 50k years. Their timing is apparently impeccable since the quarians had JUST developed the geth and they'd JUST had that whole conflict brewing. They've never been to Andromeda, so it's clearly been more than 50k years, and organic life did not go extinct. I seem to remember something about Remnant being around for a couple million years? So yeah... I didn't like ME3's ending, either, but this post is full of speculation and inaccuracies. The AI on Voeld was called specifically called "angaran", but I have my doubts. There are hints that the angara were once more than they now are, or rather that the Jardaan might've created them in their own image. Whatever the case, that AI is very advanced for a 500 year old species. The Reapers don't have impeccable timing; they use social/technological engineering to maximize efficiency. They place the Relays and leave behind precisely enough tech to ensure that societies advance perfectly apace along their desired paths. They've been doing this for millions of years. The leviathan explains that 50k year cycles weren't always a thing. I didn't see anything about the remnant being that old, and I am very completionist and attentive. The remnant in Heleus are only about 400 years old, as every scan reminds us. I don't recall much speculation regarding the Jardaan being made, since we have so little information about them. Maybe I missed something, in that regard?
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 14, 2017 16:07:42 GMT
Wait a minute. People actually thought that the Catalyst was right about the supposed problem? A fringe-group of the fanbase :dirty: and others who can't see the forest for the trees.
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Post by supersomething on Apr 14, 2017 16:14:20 GMT
The Catalyst's argument is that that conflict is inevitable and that it will happen eventually. Just because we haven't seen it yet doesn't disprove his thesis. Also, what AI did the Remnant create? The only AI I can remember is the one on Voeld. Truth be told, I was surprised the Kett didn't have any of their own and even thought at one point they were going to steal the one on Voeld. That was such a pointlessly vague statement. Conflict will happen... eventually. Well no kidding there will be differences in ideologies, perspectives, and opinions and some may get to a point of conflict. However, believing that the only possible outcome is absolute domination by synthetics as a result of that conflict is exceptionally narrow minded and even the star child admitted their solution was no longer working. The silly thing about that thesis is the fact that they know technology will develop along the paths they decide so naturally the thesis will be proven because they set down the only possible technological pathways for every species in that galaxy which basically funneled everyone into predictable paths and ultimately to their destruction. Until the anomaly of Shepard and his team came along and began investigating and deviating from the desired pathways. It was a self fulfilling prophecy up to the point someone decided to say eff that, and did something different.
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Post by Muddy Boots on Apr 14, 2017 16:17:17 GMT
Wait a minute. People actually thought that the Catalyst was right about the supposed problem? Didn't the Catalyst at some point in the conversation say he'd made a mistake or miscalculation about the whole thing but can't stop it on its own?
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Post by OdanUrr on Apr 14, 2017 16:25:29 GMT
The Catalyst's argument is that that conflict is inevitable and that it will happen eventually. Just because we haven't seen it yet doesn't disprove his thesis. Also, what AI did the Remnant create? The only AI I can remember is the one on Voeld. Truth be told, I was surprised the Kett didn't have any of their own and even thought at one point they were going to steal the one on Voeld. That was such a pointlessly vague statement. Conflict will happen... eventually. Well no kidding there will be differences in ideologies, perspectives, and opinions and some may get to a point of conflict. However, believing that the only possible outcome is absolute domination by synthetics as a result of that conflict is exceptionally narrow minded and even the star child admitted their solution was no longer working. The silly thing about that thesis is the fact that they know technology will develop along the paths they decide so naturally the thesis will be proven because they set down the only possible technological pathways for every species in that galaxy which basically funneled everyone into predictable paths and ultimately to their destruction. Until the anomaly of Shepard and his team came along and began investigating and deviating from the desired pathways. It was a self fulfilling prophecy up to the point someone decided to say eff that, and did something different. Never said it was a good one.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 14, 2017 16:28:04 GMT
Was the AI on Voeld created by Remnant or the angara? For some reason I thought it was Remnant, but it might be angaran. If it was the angara, then it exposes the lie even more. Because the angara weren't anywhere near to exterminating themselves, even with AIs. The Reapers came every 50k years. Their timing is apparently impeccable since the quarians had JUST developed the geth and they'd JUST had that whole conflict brewing. They've never been to Andromeda, so it's clearly been more than 50k years, and organic life did not go extinct. I seem to remember something about Remnant being around for a couple million years? So yeah... I didn't like ME3's ending, either, but this post is full of speculation and inaccuracies. The AI on Voeld was called specifically called "angaran", but I have my doubts. There are hints that the angara were once more than they now are, or rather that the Jardaan might've created them in their own image. Whatever the case, that AI is very advanced for a 500 year old species. The Reapers don't have impeccable timing; they use social/technological engineering to maximize efficiency. They place the Relays and leave behind precisely enough tech to ensure that societies advance perfectly apace along their desired paths. They've been doing this for millions of years. The leviathan explains that 50k year cycles weren't always a thing. I didn't see anything about the remnant being that old, and I am very completionist and attentive. The remnant in Heleus are only about 400 years old, as every scan reminds us. I don't recall much speculation regarding the Jardaan being made, since we have so little information about them. Maybe I missed something, in that regard? I didn't waste my money on Leviathan. But the 50k cycles have been working for a long time, and the Reapers always show up "in the nick of time" as it were, otherwise either all organic life in the Milky Way would have been extinct, or they would have already been proven wrong. I'm at work so I can't find the 2 million year reference. I'll try to remember to look it up when I get home
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Post by AnDromedary on Apr 14, 2017 16:29:44 GMT
The Catalyst's argument is that that conflict is inevitable and that it will happen eventually. Just because we haven't seen it yet doesn't disprove his thesis. Well, you cannot disprove it ever because it is stated to happen at some random point in the future. This is not a thesis at all, it's more like belief system really. The ability to unequivocally prove or disprove it is one core prerequisite for any hypothesis.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 14, 2017 16:33:24 GMT
The Catalyst's argument is that that conflict is inevitable and that it will happen eventually. Just because we haven't seen it yet doesn't disprove his thesis. Well, you cannot disprove it ever because it is stated to happen at some random point in the future. This is not a thesis at all, it's more like belief system really. The ability to unequivocally prove or disprove it is one core prerequisite for any hypothesis. You might say it's more of an anti-thesis.... Yeah, I went there.
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Post by OdanUrr on Apr 14, 2017 16:33:47 GMT
The Catalyst's argument is that that conflict is inevitable and that it will happen eventually. Just because we haven't seen it yet doesn't disprove his thesis. Well, you cannot disprove it ever because it is stated to happen at some random point in the future. This is not a thesis at all, it's more like belief system really. The ability to disprove it is one core prerequisite for any hypothesis. If I recally correctly, the Catalyst (and the Reapers) said they had observed this pattern repeat itself countless times. True, just because it has repeated itself 10,000 times doesn't mean it will repeat itself again 10,001. We don't have the same information as the Catalyst so that puts us in a bit of a quandary.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 14, 2017 16:35:28 GMT
Well, you cannot disprove it ever because it is stated to happen at some random point in the future. This is not a thesis at all, it's more like belief system really. The ability to disprove it is one core prerequisite for any hypothesis. If I recally correctly, the Catalyst (and the Reapers) said they had observed this pattern repeat itself countless times. True, just because it has repeated itself 10,000 times doesn't mean it will repeat itself again 10,001. We don't have the same information as the Catalyst so that puts us in a bit of a quandary. Well a large part of the problem with that is that they deliberately seeded the galaxy with technology to ensure that this pattern does repeat itself. Stacking the deck in favor of your theory is generally frowned upon.
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Post by Element Zero on Apr 14, 2017 16:37:05 GMT
I didn't like ME3's ending, either, but this post is full of speculation and inaccuracies. The AI on Voeld was called specifically called "angaran", but I have my doubts. There are hints that the angara were once more than they now are, or rather that the Jardaan might've created them in their own image. Whatever the case, that AI is very advanced for a 500 year old species. The Reapers don't have impeccable timing; they use social/technological engineering to maximize efficiency. They place the Relays and leave behind precisely enough tech to ensure that societies advance perfectly apace along their desired paths. They've been doing this for millions of years. The leviathan explains that 50k year cycles weren't always a thing. I didn't see anything about the remnant being that old, and I am very completionist and attentive. The remnant in Heleus are only about 400 years old, as every scan reminds us. I don't recall much speculation regarding the Jardaan being made, since we have so little information about them. Maybe I missed something, in that regard? I didn't waste my money on Leviathan. But the 50k cycles have been working for a long time, and the Reapers always show up "in the nick of time" as it were, otherwise either all organic life in the Milky Way would have been extinct, or they would have already been proven wrong. I'm at work so I can't find the 2 million year reference. I'll try to remember to look it up when I get home They show up in the nick of time because they've engineered it, and left behind a sentinel to observe and call for its buddies when it's time. Definitely share, if you can. I feel like there might be a few things I missed while chasing Meridian. The fights were frequent and heavy, and the pacing "urgent", so I wonder if I missed some text, somewhere.
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Post by AnDromedary on Apr 14, 2017 16:38:14 GMT
Well, you cannot disprove it ever because it is stated to happen at some random point in the future. This is not a thesis at all, it's more like belief system really. The ability to disprove it is one core prerequisite for any hypothesis. If I recally correctly, the Catalyst (and the Reapers) said they had observed this pattern repeat itself countless times. True, just because it has repeated itself 10,000 times doesn't mean it will repeat itself again 10,001. We don't have the same information as the Catalyst so that puts us in a bit of a quandary. What have they seen though? From what information we can gather, they stopped evolution and development long long before their prediction came even close to fruition with any species. (They certainly did so in our cycle, same with the protheans from what Javik tells). They either have no corroborating data or they refuse to show it. What's even worse for the ME3 ending IMO though is that the ability to travel between galaxies renders the reaper solution for the milky way counter productive. Basically the reapers halt evolution and development in the MW, keeping it roughly on the same level since the Leviathans were around. However, unless they postulate that all other galaxies also have reapers, they must now assume that an AI is developing in another galaxy and will eventually (and according to the catalyst inevitably) invade the MW. So, what is the cycle even good for, other then dooming the MW in the long run anyway?
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Post by Iakus on Apr 14, 2017 16:38:52 GMT
Wait a minute. People actually thought that the Catalyst was right about the supposed problem? It was clearly supposed to be a writer's sock puppet. Just like Vigil in ME1 and EDI in ME2. They all essentially functioned as Expositron9000s
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Post by OdanUrr on Apr 14, 2017 16:40:45 GMT
If I recally correctly, the Catalyst (and the Reapers) said they had observed this pattern repeat itself countless times. True, just because it has repeated itself 10,000 times doesn't mean it will repeat itself again 10,001. We don't have the same information as the Catalyst so that puts us in a bit of a quandary. Well a large part of the problem with that is that they deliberately seeded the galaxy with technology to ensure that this pattern does repeat itself. Stacking the deck in favor of your theory is generally frowned upon. I suppose they did so after they detected the pattern and to ensure that civilizations would develop along a predictable path that wouldn't threaten the Reapers' technological superiority. I think the Catalyst said something along those lines or mabye I'm making it up.
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Post by Element Zero on Apr 14, 2017 16:57:06 GMT
Well a large part of the problem with that is that they deliberately seeded the galaxy with technology to ensure that this pattern does repeat itself. Stacking the deck in favor of your theory is generally frowned upon. I suppose they did so after they detected the pattern and to ensure that civilizations would develop along a predictable path that wouldn't threaten the Reapers' technological superiority. I think the Catalyst said something along those lines or mabye I'm making it up. It did, as did the leviathan. The "problem" was identified before the Reapers even existed, as the Catalyst observed an unspecified number of these wars culminate in the loss of one or more species. They eventually started engineering the precise Cycles for the sake of efficiency. Before they invented the Cycles, the timeline was all left to chance. I never saw a point in arguing with the Catalyst. It's hundreds of millions of years old, at least, and far more intelligent than Shepard. Most importantly, arguing achieves nothing. We can't convince the Catalyst that it's solution has always been wrong. The only other species that can be faintly compared to it, in perspective, is the leviathans. Tellingly, they don't disagree with the Catalyst's conclusions.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 14, 2017 16:59:52 GMT
Wait a minute. People actually thought that the Catalyst was right about the supposed problem? I know right? Screw that guy. Ryder and SAM are gonna scan into the sunset.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2017 17:08:17 GMT
So the fact that Andromeda exists, there are advanced civilizations, and even AI, and yet there was no giant organics vs synthetics war that exterminated all organic life in the galaxy, clearly exposes the Reaper's claim to be bogus. The Reapers claimed that if they didn't exterminate the advanced civilizations before they developed too-advanced-AI, then the AIs would eventually exterminate ALL organic life in the galaxy. However, Andromeda has never been visited by the Reapers. It has/had an advanced civilization (Remnant) that even built AI. But unless whatever destroyed the Remnant was their AI turning on them (seems unlikely), then they were advancing along just swimmingly. I know that the Jaarden were attacked by something called the Opposition, but given the storyline, and the abundance of automated technology, it seems unlikely the Opposition is an AI. Most likely whatever created the kett. I mean, I think most of us hated the ME3 ending idea in the first place, but this seems to prove that it's utter bunk. Thoughts? It was flawed logic. We all knew that. They clearly were experiencing some kind of feedback loop.
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Post by griffith82 on Apr 14, 2017 17:14:08 GMT
I didn't like ME3's ending, either, but this post is full of speculation and inaccuracies. The AI on Voeld was called specifically called "angaran", but I have my doubts. There are hints that the angara were once more than they now are, or rather that the Jardaan might've created them in their own image. Whatever the case, that AI is very advanced for a 500 year old species. The Reapers don't have impeccable timing; they use social/technological engineering to maximize efficiency. They place the Relays and leave behind precisely enough tech to ensure that societies advance perfectly apace along their desired paths. They've been doing this for millions of years. The leviathan explains that 50k year cycles weren't always a thing. I didn't see anything about the remnant being that old, and I am very completionist and attentive. The remnant in Heleus are only about 400 years old, as every scan reminds us. I don't recall much speculation regarding the Jardaan being made, since we have so little information about them. Maybe I missed something, in that regard? I didn't waste my money on Leviathan. But the 50k cycles have been working for a long time, and the Reapers always show up "in the nick of time" as it were, otherwise either all organic life in the Milky Way would have been extinct, or they would have already been proven wrong. I'm at work so I can't find the 2 million year reference. I'll try to remember to look it up when I get home You missed a great dlc then. On topic the people who created the Reapers gave the a finite amount of data and they made the only conclusion they could. It was wrong but still. The fact Andromeda has AI does not make their claims false.
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