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Post by R'Shara on Apr 14, 2017 17:22:14 GMT
I didn't waste my money on Leviathan. But the 50k cycles have been working for a long time, and the Reapers always show up "in the nick of time" as it were, otherwise either all organic life in the Milky Way would have been extinct, or they would have already been proven wrong. I'm at work so I can't find the 2 million year reference. I'll try to remember to look it up when I get home You missed a great dlc then. On topic the people who created the Reapers gave the a finite amount of data and they made the only conclusion they could. It was wrong but still. The fact Andromeda has AI does not make their claims false. It's not the fact that Andromeda has AI that makes their claims false. It's the fact that Andromeda has never been Reaped, and hasn't destroyed all organic life, despite obviously very technologically advanced civilizations. Reading the Wiki, it says that the Jardan dispatched the Remnant terraformers about 700 years ago. So they were at least a goodly number of (thousands of) years old. The asari began their civilization before the protheans were exterminated, and aren't anywhere near that level, even after being artificially accelerated.
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Post by griffith82 on Apr 14, 2017 17:25:02 GMT
You missed a great dlc then. On topic the people who created the Reapers gave the a finite amount of data and they made the only conclusion they could. It was wrong but still. The fact Andromeda has AI does not make their claims false. It's not the fact that Andromeda has AI that makes their claims false. It's the fact that Andromeda has never been Reaped, and hasn't destroyed all organic life, despite obviously very technologically advanced civilizations. Reading the Wiki, it says that the Jaarden created the angara about 500 years ago. So they were at least a goodly number of (thousands of) years old. The asari began their civilization before the protheans were exterminated, and aren't anywhere near that level, even after being artificially accelerated. That Reapers were operating off an assumption from observations from past cycles. They thought at the time it was the only option. It doesn't mean they were wrong at the time.
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Post by supersomething on Apr 14, 2017 17:26:07 GMT
Well Andromeda is technically being reaped by the Kett. Except in this case Kett organics are making other organics in their image instead of synthetics making organics in Harbinger's image.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 14, 2017 17:26:47 GMT
Except they were wrong. The fact that they didn't know they were wrong, doesn't make them not-wrong.
Also kinda referring to the ME3 writers. They had to know the existence of Andromeda and civilizations there would show up ME3 as completely wrong.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 14, 2017 18:18:42 GMT
Wait a minute. People actually thought that the Catalyst was right about the supposed problem? It was clearly supposed to be a writer's sock puppet. Just like Vigil in ME1 and EDI in ME2. They all essentially functioned as Expositron9000sIt would be interesting to plot the correlation between believing this and satisfaction with the endings.
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Post by Jacket on Apr 14, 2017 18:40:49 GMT
So the fact that Andromeda exists, there are advanced civilizations, and even AI, and yet there was no giant organics vs synthetics war that exterminated all organic life in the galaxy, clearly exposes the Reaper's claim to be bogus. You didn't have to wait for Andromeda to figure that out lol.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 14, 2017 18:42:18 GMT
So the fact that Andromeda exists, there are advanced civilizations, and even AI, and yet there was no giant organics vs synthetics war that exterminated all organic life in the galaxy, clearly exposes the Reaper's claim to be bogus. You didn't have to wait for Andromeda to figure that out lol. Hah, no, but it has to be a little embarrassing for the writers to realize they just completely debunked themselves.
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Post by zeratul12 on Apr 14, 2017 18:42:57 GMT
So the fact that Andromeda exists, there are advanced civilizations, and even AI, and yet there was no giant organics vs synthetics war that exterminated all organic life in the galaxy, clearly exposes the Reaper's claim to be bogus. The Reapers claimed that if they didn't exterminate the advanced civilizations before they developed too-advanced-AI, then the AIs would eventually exterminate ALL organic life in the galaxy. However, Andromeda has never been visited by the Reapers. It has/had an advanced civilization (Remnant) that even built AI. But unless whatever destroyed the Remnant was their AI turning on them (seems unlikely), then they were advancing along just swimmingly. I know that the Jaarden were attacked by something called the Opposition, but given the storyline, and the abundance of automated technology, it seems unlikely the Opposition is an AI. Most likely whatever created the kett. I mean, I think most of us hated the ME3 ending idea in the first place, but this seems to prove that it's utter bunk. Thoughts? Well it probably has happened in Andromeda. Do remember that the Reapers were created millions of years ago and have basically been doing a hard reset of every advanced civilisation every 50,000 years stunting the galaxies progress. We don't exactly know what the Andromedas history is; there could have been hundreds or thousands of Synthetic and Organic wars. Or maybe just one massive war that devastated the galaxy practically erasing most life in Andromeda.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 14, 2017 19:07:51 GMT
You didn't have to wait for Andromeda to figure that out lol. Hah, no, but it has to be a little embarrassing for the writers to realize they just completely debunked themselves. The writers never thought the Catalyst was right themselves. If they did, then Destroy would be a huge mistake. It isn't.
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Post by parnashwind on Apr 14, 2017 19:19:26 GMT
Firstly, the Reapers or more accurately the AI that created them is neither telling the truth nor a lie. It is just his personal view (plausible view I might add) and he chooses preemptive strike as a solution.
Also, the AI actually created a self fulfilling prophecy scenario in the MW which greatly increases the chances of his prediction coming true. They left technology and lead the countless civilization down a path of technological advancement of their design. Since each advanced civilization is actually following a predetermine path of development, chances of them all reaching the same outcome becomes higher.
Thus far, we do not see any Mass Relays in Andromeda. It could mean that civilizations in Andromeda needs to travel long distances to meet another species. Even if there is a synthetic vs organic war in one corner of Andromeda, it would be largely contained to that portion of Andromeda.
Also, I have only seen 1 Andromeda AI. All the Remnants are not AI, they are just VIs.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 14, 2017 19:21:24 GMT
So the fact that Andromeda exists, there are advanced civilizations, and even AI, and yet there was no giant organics vs synthetics war that exterminated all organic life in the galaxy, clearly exposes the Reaper's claim to be bogus. The Reapers claimed that if they didn't exterminate the advanced civilizations before they developed too-advanced-AI, then the AIs would eventually exterminate ALL organic life in the galaxy. However, Andromeda has never been visited by the Reapers. It has/had an advanced civilization (Remnant) that even built AI. But unless whatever destroyed the Remnant was their AI turning on them (seems unlikely), then they were advancing along just swimmingly. I know that the Jaarden were attacked by something called the Opposition, but given the storyline, and the abundance of automated technology, it seems unlikely the Opposition is an AI. Most likely whatever created the kett. I mean, I think most of us hated the ME3 ending idea in the first place, but this seems to prove that it's utter bunk. Thoughts? Well it probably has happened in Andromeda. Do remember that the Reapers were created millions of years ago and have basically been doing a hard reset of every advanced civilisation every 50,000 years stunting the galaxies progress. We don't exactly know what the Andromedas history is; there could have been hundreds or thousands of Synthetic and Organic wars. Or maybe just one massive war that devastated the galaxy practically erasing most life in Andromeda. According to Reaper logic, synthetics would wipe out ALL organic life in the galaxy and be the only sentient beings left. Firstly, the Reapers or more accurately the AI that created them is neither telling the truth nor a lie. It is just his personal view (plausible view I might add) and he chooses preemptive strike as a solution. Also, I have only seen 1 Andromeda AI. All the Remnants are not AI, they are just VIs. I could say the Reapers were just full of BS instead, if that works better Right, we've only seen one AI so far, and it seems to have been made by the angara? Seeing as the angara are a relatively new species, given the plotline, the ones before the angara clearly could have made AI as well, and didn't destroy themselves and all organic life with 'em.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 14, 2017 19:27:13 GMT
Hah, no, but it has to be a little embarrassing for the writers to realize they just completely debunked themselves. The writers never thought the Catalyst was right themselves. If they did, then Destroy would be a huge mistake. It isn't. Why? Destroy is the ending were the most can go wrong (You can blow up the entire relay network with low enough score) The Catalyst makes it clear that eventually "the chaos will return" And as an added bit of fun, you genocide all AI everywhere in the galaxy. Whereas with Synthesis, not only is there no "bad version" but it has the highest amount of War Assets required to unlock. And the Expositron 9000 outright tells you it's the optimal solution. So while Bioware doesn't outright tell you a given chocie is "a huge mistake" They make it abundantly clear that some options are just plain BETTER than others.
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Post by Seera1024 on Apr 14, 2017 19:29:44 GMT
You missed a great dlc then. On topic the people who created the Reapers gave the a finite amount of data and they made the only conclusion they could. It was wrong but still. The fact Andromeda has AI does not make their claims false. It's not the fact that Andromeda has AI that makes their claims false. It's the fact that Andromeda has never been Reaped, and hasn't destroyed all organic life, despite obviously very technologically advanced civilizations. Reading the Wiki, it says that the Jardan dispatched the Remnant terraformers about 700 years ago. So they were at least a goodly number of (thousands of) years old. The asari began their civilization before the protheans were exterminated, and aren't anywhere near that level, even after being artificially accelerated. That assumes that the Leviathans programmed them with the knowledge of Andromeda. The Leviathans may have had no issues with organics being wiped out by synthetics in the Andromeda galaxy. Just as long as they kept their war in the Andromeda galaxy. So they didn't program the Reapers or the Catalyst to monitor or reap the Andromeda Galaxy. Just because the Andromeda galaxy wasn't reapoed doesn't lessen MET's ending. Doesn't strengthen it either, but it doesn't weaken it. And for all we know they have been reaped but like in our galaxy the one left behind to check on progress was destroyed. And maybe the bunch that destroyed that vanguard destroyed any mass relays they had in that galaxy. Or the Andromeda galaxy runs on 100,000 cycles and they're at year 75,000. And no one's found evidence that points to the Reapers having existed in this galaxy. Doesn't prove they didn't come to the Andromeda galaxy, though.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 14, 2017 19:33:18 GMT
It's not the fact that Andromeda has AI that makes their claims false. It's the fact that Andromeda has never been Reaped, and hasn't destroyed all organic life, despite obviously very technologically advanced civilizations. Reading the Wiki, it says that the Jardan dispatched the Remnant terraformers about 700 years ago. So they were at least a goodly number of (thousands of) years old. The asari began their civilization before the protheans were exterminated, and aren't anywhere near that level, even after being artificially accelerated. That assumes that the Leviathans programmed them with the knowledge of Andromeda. The Leviathans may have had no issues with organics being wiped out by synthetics in the Andromeda galaxy. Just as long as they kept their war in the Andromeda galaxy. So they didn't program the Reapers or the Catalyst to monitor or reap the Andromeda Galaxy. Just because the Andromeda galaxy wasn't reapoed doesn't lessen MET's ending. Doesn't strengthen it either, but it doesn't weaken it. And for all we know they have been reaped but like in our galaxy the one left behind to check on progress was destroyed. And maybe the bunch that destroyed that vanguard destroyed any mass relays they had in that galaxy. Or the Andromeda galaxy runs on 100,000 cycles and they're at year 75,000. And no one's found evidence that points to the Reapers having existed in this galaxy. Doesn't prove they didn't come to the Andromeda galaxy, though. But what about the threat of Andromeda synthetics eventually making their way to the Milky Way. If we could get there, they could get here.
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Post by Seera1024 on Apr 14, 2017 19:38:15 GMT
That assumes that the Leviathans programmed them with the knowledge of Andromeda. The Leviathans may have had no issues with organics being wiped out by synthetics in the Andromeda galaxy. Just as long as they kept their war in the Andromeda galaxy. So they didn't program the Reapers or the Catalyst to monitor or reap the Andromeda Galaxy. Just because the Andromeda galaxy wasn't reapoed doesn't lessen MET's ending. Doesn't strengthen it either, but it doesn't weaken it. And for all we know they have been reaped but like in our galaxy the one left behind to check on progress was destroyed. And maybe the bunch that destroyed that vanguard destroyed any mass relays they had in that galaxy. Or the Andromeda galaxy runs on 100,000 cycles and they're at year 75,000. And no one's found evidence that points to the Reapers having existed in this galaxy. Doesn't prove they didn't come to the Andromeda galaxy, though. But what about the threat of Andromeda synthetics eventually making their way to the Milky Way. If we could get there, they could get here. But the Leviathans were not able to go between galaxies to our knowledge so they may not have thought about the possibility of them coming over here.
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Post by parnashwind on Apr 14, 2017 19:39:07 GMT
That would be more accurate. Because a character's opinion or belief does not equal the author's. For example: A character in a story can believe that he is the most power person but that is only that character's point of view, it does not reflect the author's view. AI's are shaped by their creators. If humans were to create AI and give them "human values".... then "preemptive strike", "bomb them because if we dont bomb them now, they may cause problem for us" will likely be part of the DNA of the AI and we would likely get wiped out. A different race that has a totally different culture/belief/biology/etc will shape any AI they create differently. So, I would argue that the Leviathans are crappy programmers and they have a lousy culture and their creation reflects that.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 14, 2017 19:40:23 GMT
But what about the threat of Andromeda synthetics eventually making their way to the Milky Way. If we could get there, they could get here. But the Leviathans were not able to go between galaxies to our knowledge so they may not have thought about the possibility of them coming over here. Just how special are humans, exactly?
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 14, 2017 19:42:41 GMT
That assumes that the Leviathans programmed them with the knowledge of Andromeda. The Leviathans may have had no issues with organics being wiped out by synthetics in the Andromeda galaxy. Just as long as they kept their war in the Andromeda galaxy. So they didn't program the Reapers or the Catalyst to monitor or reap the Andromeda Galaxy. Just because the Andromeda galaxy wasn't reapoed doesn't lessen MET's ending. Doesn't strengthen it either, but it doesn't weaken it. And for all we know they have been reaped but like in our galaxy the one left behind to check on progress was destroyed. And maybe the bunch that destroyed that vanguard destroyed any mass relays they had in that galaxy. Or the Andromeda galaxy runs on 100,000 cycles and they're at year 75,000. And no one's found evidence that points to the Reapers having existed in this galaxy. Doesn't prove they didn't come to the Andromeda galaxy, though. But what about the threat of Andromeda synthetics eventually making their way to the Milky Way. If we could get there, they could get here. Sorry what? I'm not seeing the correlation here. I'm not saying anything about the Reapers knowing or caring about Andromeda. I'm saying, the fact that Andromeda exists, has at least one or two very advanced civilizations (beyond even the asari, that have been around since the beginning of this latest cycle), and at least one moderately advanced civilization (that has created AI), and has never been Reaped, means that the Reapers' premise of an inevitable organic-synthetic war that will kill all organic life is BS.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 14, 2017 19:46:59 GMT
I really wish they had made things a little less (imo) high-falootin'-pseuod-intellectual, and gone for something basic, like, "This is how the Reapers reproduce. Join us because we are so superior. You will know peace and everlasting life and majesty," and left out the rest.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 14, 2017 19:47:47 GMT
But what about the threat of Andromeda synthetics eventually making their way to the Milky Way. If we could get there, they could get here. Sorry what? I'm not seeing the correlation here. I'm not saying anything about the Reapers knowing or caring about Andromeda. I'm saying, the fact that Andromeda exists, has at least one or two very advanced civilizations (beyond even the asari, that have been around since the beginning of this latest cycle), and at least one moderately advanced civilization (that has created AI), and has never been Reaped, means that the Reapers' premise of an inevitable organic-synthetic war that will kill all organic life is BS. Responding to the Reapers not caring about what happens in Andromeda. The fact that it is technologically possible to cross to other galaxies should mean the Reapers, as "caretakers" of the Milky Way, should be concerned about the advancement of other galaxies. Since it could mean that races (organic or synthetic) could come to the Milky Way and start messing up their cycles. The reason thse cycles worked for so long was because it was a closed system without outside interference, after all
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Post by Seera1024 on Apr 14, 2017 19:49:15 GMT
But the Leviathans were not able to go between galaxies to our knowledge so they may not have thought about the possibility of them coming over here. Just how special are humans, exactly? It's ONE POSSIBLE explanation for why no evidence of Reapers in the Andromeda galaxy. The MET ending is fairly weak. Why leave any organics remaining if all they do is develop AI and cause untold amounts of chaos? My only point is that Andromeda not having been reaped doesn't discount anything in MET and doesn't make the ending for the MET any weaker.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 14, 2017 19:51:03 GMT
Just how special are humans, exactly? It's ONE POSSIBLE explanation for why no evidence of Reapers in the Andromeda galaxy. The MET ending is fairly weak. Why leave any organics remaining if all they do is develop AI and cause untold amounts of chaos? My only point is that Andromeda not having been reaped doesn't discount anything in MET and doesn't make the ending for the MET any weaker. I'd say it makes Shepard's "victory" already tainted, all the more hollow. So much death and a RGB "solution" for NOTHING
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2017 19:51:55 GMT
The Catalyst's opinions were the result of of it's coding by the Leviathans, not any deep analysis of what actually transpired in the Milky Way. The Catalyst was programmed to view conflict between synthetics and organics as an inevitability and to do whatever it took to prevent it, so that the Leviathans wouldn't have to later deal with a tribute-paying species self-destructing. Unfortunately for the Leviathans, they apparently didn't have their own version of Isaac Asimov.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 14, 2017 19:53:54 GMT
Just how special are humans, exactly? It's ONE POSSIBLE explanation for why no evidence of Reapers in the Andromeda galaxy. The MET ending is fairly weak. Why leave any organics remaining if all they do is develop AI and cause untold amounts of chaos? My only point is that Andromeda not having been reaped doesn't discount anything in MET and doesn't make the ending for the MET any weaker. It doesn't matter that there is no evidence of Reapers in Andromeda. It matters that Reapers never went there at all, and the galaxy's organic life is fine.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 14, 2017 20:03:13 GMT
The writers never thought the Catalyst was right themselves. If they did, then Destroy would be a huge mistake. It isn't. Why? Destroy is the ending were the most can go wrong (You can blow up the entire relay network with low enough score) The Catalyst makes it clear that eventually "the chaos will return" And as an added bit of fun, you genocide all AI everywhere in the galaxy. Whereas with Synthesis, not only is there no "bad version" but it has the highest amount of War Assets required to unlock. And the Expositron 9000 outright tells you it's the optimal solution. So while Bioware doesn't outright tell you a given chocie is "a huge mistake" They make it abundantly clear that some options are just plain BETTER than others. I don't see how this is a response to my point. Whatever else you want to say about Destroy, there is no hint that it leads to synthetics overrunning the galaxy.
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