Seera1024
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Post by Seera1024 on Apr 15, 2017 0:28:29 GMT
We can't prove or disprove the Big Bang happened yet we call it the Big Bang Theory. And there is the definition of theory of it being just conjecture. There's definitely not enough evidence for it to be any kind of scientific theory. The Big Bang theory can be disproven by finding what the origin of the universe actually is. Saying "synthetics will eventually wipe out all organics" can't be disproven until the end of time, and even then, there's other universes. It's like saying, "Aliens exist." This couldn't be disproven because you would have to search every molecule of the universe and not find aliens in order to disprove it (and even then, there's other universes). "Aliens don't exist" can be disproven by finding aliens. But we can't prove or disprove how the universe started because we will never be able to know what the initial conditions were. Or how would you go about proving that with the technology and knowledge we have today? Theories can be things that can't be definitively proven or disprove. We can guess how the universe started by observing what the planets and dates are currently doing And what they were doing in the past. So any conjecture about the Reapers and Andromeda are theories.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 15, 2017 0:31:21 GMT
So the fact that Andromeda exists, there are advanced civilizations, and even AI, and yet there was no giant organics vs synthetics war that exterminated all organic life in the galaxy, clearly exposes the Reaper's claim to be bogus. The Reapers claimed that if they didn't exterminate the advanced civilizations before they developed too-advanced-AI, then the AIs would eventually exterminate ALL organic life in the galaxy. However, Andromeda has never been visited by the Reapers. It has/had an advanced civilization (Remnant) that even built AI. But unless whatever destroyed the Remnant was their AI turning on them (seems unlikely), then they were advancing along just swimmingly. I know that the Jaarden were attacked by something called the Opposition, but given the storyline, and the abundance of automated technology, it seems unlikely the Opposition is an AI. Most likely whatever created the kett. I mean, I think most of us hated the ME3 ending idea in the first place, but this seems to prove that it's utter bunk. Thoughts? The AI on voeld wanted to kill people... just like the reapers it was basically insane and wanted to kill you to make you leave it alone. The remnants are VI, virtual intelligence and not at all what the reapers were which is artificial intelligence. The AI on Voeld seems to have gone utterly mad, self destructive as well as homicidal. Not a good example.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 15, 2017 0:33:54 GMT
The Big Bang theory can be disproven by finding what the origin of the universe actually is. Saying "synthetics will eventually wipe out all organics" can't be disproven until the end of time, and even then, there's other universes. It's like saying, "Aliens exist." This couldn't be disproven because you would have to search every molecule of the universe and not find aliens in order to disprove it (and even then, there's other universes). "Aliens don't exist" can be disproven by finding aliens. But we can't prove or disprove how the universe started because we will never be able to know what the initial conditions were. Or how would you go about proving that with the technology and knowledge we have today? Theories can be things that can't be definitively proven or disprove. We can guess how the universe started by observing what the planets and dates are currently doing And what they were doing in the past. So any conjecture about the Reapers and Andromeda are theories. Theories are things that can be potentially disproven. Again, the Big Bang can be disproven by a better concept of math or physics coming up with a refutation. It's not impossible. Disproving that aliens exist is impossible, because you would have to search every molecule of matter in an infinite multiverse in order to disprove it. It is literally impossible.
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nthjester
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Post by nthjester on Apr 15, 2017 0:35:22 GMT
The AI on voeld wanted to kill people... just like the reapers it was basically insane and wanted to kill you to make you leave it alone. The remnants are VI, virtual intelligence and not at all what the reapers were which is artificial intelligence. The AI on Voeld seems to have gone utterly mad, self destructive as well as homicidal. Not a good example. My point is that THAT AI was the only AI. Remnants are virtual intelligence...slaves to programming.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 15, 2017 0:42:52 GMT
The AI on Voeld seems to have gone utterly mad, self destructive as well as homicidal. Not a good example. My point is that THAT AI was the only AI. Remnants are virtual intelligence...slaves to programming. Okay....I get your point, but I'm not sure what it has to do with my assertion?
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Post by Iakus on Apr 15, 2017 0:44:16 GMT
I think the villains being ridiculously, stupidly, obviously wrong makes things worse Especially when the writers are touting that the villains are right. As someone mentioned on a previous page, it's not even a valid theory because it can't be disproven. But Andromeda's been around for billions of years and organic life is hopping along just fine. We can't prove or disprove the Big Bang happened yet we call it the Big Bang Theory. And there is the definition of theory of it being just conjecture. There's definitely not enough evidence for it to be any kind of scientific theory. I've never really understood why that's called a "theory", since my understanding of the Scientific Method is that a theory is a hypothesis that can be demonstrated with reproducible results via experimentation.
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Post by jay on Apr 15, 2017 0:45:56 GMT
I never got any of the dlc for ME3 and only played that once.. the first two many many times up till that game came out.. so maybe I'm a little fuzzy but I thought the reapers were around to prevent some dark energy disaster from happening maybe like the scourge?
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Fen'Harel Faceman
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Apr 15, 2017 0:46:05 GMT
So the fact that Andromeda exists, there are advanced civilizations, and even AI, and yet there was no giant organics vs synthetics war that exterminated all organic life in the galaxy, clearly exposes the Reaper's claim to be bogus. The Reapers claimed that if they didn't exterminate the advanced civilizations before they developed too-advanced-AI, then the AIs would eventually exterminate ALL organic life in the galaxy. However, Andromeda has never been visited by the Reapers. It has/had an advanced civilization (Remnant) that even built AI. But unless whatever destroyed the Remnant was their AI turning on them (seems unlikely), then they were advancing along just swimmingly. I know that the Jaarden were attacked by something called the Opposition, but given the storyline, and the abundance of automated technology, it seems unlikely the Opposition is an AI. Most likely whatever created the kett. I mean, I think most of us hated the ME3 ending idea in the first place, but this seems to prove that it's utter bunk. Thoughts? The whole Shepard positive resolution to the Geth/Quarian conflict does this long before Andromeda, but this is a valid point - not that the Reaper logic ever really made much of a point worth debunking. The whole idea is as dumb as predestination.
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Post by nthjester on Apr 15, 2017 0:48:27 GMT
My point is that THAT AI was the only AI. Remnants are virtual intelligence...slaves to programming. Okay....I get your point, but I'm not sure what it has to do with my assertion? It means they aren't a synthetic race. They don't have the ability to take over the galaxy any more than the nomad or the nexus can. It's a bunch of machine slaves to programming. They can't learn, feel, have worries, or make plans.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 15, 2017 0:50:22 GMT
You haven't so much been making an argument as asserting that your conclusion is true. Actually, your argument is quite similar to the Catalyst's. Why should I believe you two? The same reason you have to believe Vigil. Or better yet, go ahead, don't believe the Catalyst. Bioware put in a special ending just for that occurrence "SO BE IT!!!" Talking about Refuse is just stupid. It isn't the Catalyst who tells you that Refuse would lead to disaster, it's everybody else. Again, not believing the Catalyst leads to Destroy, not Refuse. Synthesis becomes unnecessary; a solution to a non-existent problem. And keeping the power of the Reaoers on tap is somewhat less useful without that big hypothetical threat. Refuse and Destroy both look better than they did because synthetics exterminating organics is off the table, but Refuse still comes with big costs which aren't present in Destroy. You stil haven't made any argument besides "computer NPCs should be believed to be right about everything because this is a trope."
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 15, 2017 0:51:06 GMT
We can't prove or disprove the Big Bang happened yet we call it the Big Bang Theory. And there is the definition of theory of it being just conjecture. There's definitely not enough evidence for it to be any kind of scientific theory. I've never really understood why that's called a "theory", since my understanding of the Scientific Method is that a theory is a hypothesis that can be demonstrated with reproducible results via experimentation. This is mostly for things that we don't completely understand, or at least, understand enough and can reproduce consistently enough to call a law. Since the Big Bang isn't personally observable, and our math isn't great enough for more than a handful of people using limited data to reproduce. So, theory. If someone smart enough comes along, we could theoretically (sorry) disprove it. There are opposing theories that consider the math flawed or incomplete, too. www.livescience.com/21491-what-is-a-scientific-theory-definition-of-theory.html
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 15, 2017 0:55:01 GMT
Okay....I get your point, but I'm not sure what it has to do with my assertion? It means they aren't a synthetic race. They don't have the ability to take over the galaxy any more than the nomad or the nexus can. It's a bunch of machine slaves to programming. They can't learn, feel, have worries, or make plans. ....I still don't understand how your point is relevant to my assertion? Synthetics did not wipe out all possible organic life in Andromeda, despite the Starboy's assertion. The angara or the Jardaan had already advanced to the point of developing AI (which isn't a great example of an AI since it was self-destructive). It seems to have been the angara, which means that the Jardaan likely are waaaay beyond the point of being able to develop AI. And yet, Andromeda flourishes, more or less. No massive synthetic extinction event.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 15, 2017 0:58:27 GMT
?? He's making the same argument I am. The Catalyst was full of BS. He was supposed to be believed, he was the ultimate answer(er). But he was full of crap. Clarify, please. Does "full of crap" mean that the Catalyst's predictions for the future aren't true, or does it mean that they're true and you don't like them? It's conceptually impossible for a prediction about the future of the MW to be untrue if Bio believes it to be true, of course.
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Post by goishen on Apr 15, 2017 0:59:26 GMT
The whole story is bullshit. This AI and organics living together, peace through unity! It's all just bunk. Like I've said before, if SAM had a body ala EDI, he could've done it all and left us at home.
That's great SAM, why don't YOU get out and mine, mother fucker?
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Laughing_Crow
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Post by Laughing_Crow on Apr 15, 2017 1:01:29 GMT
Nope, the Scourge was an accident caused by the Opposition bombing the Jardaan base where Meridian was.
Narratively, it seems very unlikely that Bioware would go for the same enemy/type of enemy as in MET, which means it's not going to be a synthetics vs organics thing. What is your source on the Scourge and how it was created? So far I've only seen Initiative guesses as to it's origin. The Codex says: "No long range data showed any sign of the Scourge before departure to the Heleus cluster." Which means it hasn't existed for very long and should be within historical records of the Angara and possibly other evidence, even Kett. Even if the long range scan couldn't pickup the Scourge, it would not have seen any planet as golden because they've been damaged or destroyed.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 15, 2017 1:04:57 GMT
?? He's making the same argument I am. The Catalyst was full of BS. He was supposed to be believed, he was the ultimate answer(er). But he was full of crap. Clarify, please. Does "full of crap" mean that the Catalyst's predictions for the future aren't true, or does it mean that they're true and you don't like them? It's conceptually impossible for a prediction about the future of the MW to be untrue if Bio believes it to be true, of course. Clarification: As in the original post, Andromeda proves that letting organics develop too long will not lead to them developing synthetics that will eventually wipe out all organic life in that galaxy. The angara developed an AI. It wasn't a great one, but it was an AI. The Jardaan are who-knows-how-many-millennia ahead of the angara. Therefore, the Jardaan must have been able to develop AI for the last multiple thousands of years. They have either not developed it, or have developed it and it has not decided to wipe out all organic life. This, then, absolutely proves that the Catalyst was completely wrong about the inevitability of either developing AI, or AI destroying all organic life.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 15, 2017 1:06:45 GMT
Nope, the Scourge was an accident caused by the Opposition bombing the Jardaan base where Meridian was.
Narratively, it seems very unlikely that Bioware would go for the same enemy/type of enemy as in MET, which means it's not going to be a synthetics vs organics thing. What is your source on the Scourge and how it was created? So far I've only seen Initiative guesses as to it's origin. The Codex says: "No long range data showed any sign of the Scourge before departure to the Heleus cluster." Which means it hasn't existed for very long and should be within historical records of the Angara and possibly other evidence, even Kett. Even if the long range scan couldn't pickup the Scourge, it would not have seen any planet as golden because they've been damaged or destroyed. During the first Meridian mission, you find out that the Scourge was because the damage to the base allowed all the energy to spill out and contaminate the cluster. Edit: The codex says that the Scourge was a weapon deployed either because of an external threat or a rift in Jardaan culture. Slightly different than what was said during the mission. Not sure if oversight or correction.
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Post by goishen on Apr 15, 2017 1:09:06 GMT
Clarify, please. Does "full of crap" mean that the Catalyst's predictions for the future aren't true, or does it mean that they're true and you don't like them? It's conceptually impossible for a prediction about the future of the MW to be untrue if Bio believes it to be true, of course. Clarification: As in the original post, Andromeda proves that letting organics develop too long will not lead to them developing synthetics that will eventually wipe out all organic life in that galaxy. The angara developed an AI. It wasn't a great one, but it was an AI. The Jardaan are who-knows-how-many-millennia ahead of the angara. Therefore, the Jardaan must have been able to develop AI for the last multiple thousands of years. They have either not developed it, or have developed it and it has not decided to wipe out all organic life. This, then, absolutely proves that the Catalyst was completely wrong about the inevitability of either developing AI, or AI destroying all organic life. And thus, again, shitting all over Mass Effect's lore. Great. Dewd. I would get that writer so drunk he/she would spill all the secrets to me of how fucked that game was from the beginning.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 15, 2017 1:13:27 GMT
Clarification: As in the original post, Andromeda proves that letting organics develop too long will not lead to them developing synthetics that will eventually wipe out all organic life in that galaxy. The angara developed an AI. It wasn't a great one, but it was an AI. The Jardaan are who-knows-how-many-millennia ahead of the angara. Therefore, the Jardaan must have been able to develop AI for the last multiple thousands of years. They have either not developed it, or have developed it and it has not decided to wipe out all organic life. This, then, absolutely proves that the Catalyst was completely wrong about the inevitability of either developing AI, or AI destroying all organic life. And thus, again, shitting all over Mass Effect's lore. Great. Dewd. I would get that writer so drunk he/she would spill all the secrets to me of how fucked that game was from the beginning. Is it sh*tting all over Mass Effect's lore when the specific sh*tty lore in question is already sh*t?
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 15, 2017 1:14:14 GMT
And thus, again, shitting all over Mass Effect's lore. Great. Dewd. I would get that writer so drunk he/she would spill all the secrets to me of how fucked that game was from the beginning. Is it sh*tting all over Mass Effect's lore when the specific sh*tty lore in question is already sh*t? Dude. That's like, sh*tty lore inception, right there.
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Post by Laughing_Crow on Apr 15, 2017 1:14:54 GMT
What is your source on the Scourge and how it was created? So far I've only seen Initiative guesses as to it's origin. The Codex says: "No long range data showed any sign of the Scourge before departure to the Heleus cluster." Which means it hasn't existed for very long and should be within historical records of the Angara and possibly other evidence, even Kett. Even if the long range scan couldn't pickup the Scourge, it would not have seen any planet as golden because they've been damaged or destroyed. During the first Meridian mission, you find out that the Scourge was because the damage to the base allowed all the energy to spill out and contaminate the cluster. I must have missed that - so are you told this by SAM or other source? However, given the time line, doesn't this create a problem with the Scourge being less than 600 years old? And if it's less than 600 years old, it's certainly spread quickly and I'd have to guess - answered in some DLC, continued in Andromeda 2 or just left hanging or retconned if the plot takes a detour in the future, like dark energy did in the original.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 15, 2017 1:16:22 GMT
The same reason you have to believe Vigil. Or better yet, go ahead, don't believe the Catalyst. Bioware put in a special ending just for that occurrence "SO BE IT!!!" Talking about Refuse is just stupid. It isn't the Catalyst who tells you that Refuse would lead to disaster, it's everybody else. Again, not believing the Catalyst leads to Destroy, not Refuse. Synthesis becomes unnecessary; a solution to a non-existent problem. And keeping the power of the Reaoers on tap is somewhat less useful without that big hypothetical threat. Refuse and Destroy both look better than they did because synthetics exterminating organics is off the table, but Refuse still comes with big costs which aren't present in Destroy. You stil haven't made any argument besides "computer NPCs should be believed to be right about everything because this is a trope." No, it's not stupid. The Catalyst does tell you refuse leads to disaster. Heck it gives you a chance to back out! Not believing the Catalyst leads to Refuse. The Catalyst has a problem and it tells you to fix it with one of its "solutions". Even though you may not believe said problem exists. Without the problem there is no Destroy, Control, or Synthesis. You just have broken machines.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 15, 2017 1:17:01 GMT
Is it sh*tting all over Mass Effect's lore when the specific sh*tty lore in question is already sh*t? Dude. That's like, sh*tty lore inception, right there. We must go dee-err... nevermind :poop:
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Post by goishen on Apr 15, 2017 1:20:07 GMT
Is it sh*tting all over Mass Effect's lore when the specific sh*tty lore in question is already sh*t? Dude. That's like, sh*tty lore inception, right there. Meh. I don't really think that the catalyst was wrong. Organic life doesn't know who created them. Synthetic beings know who created them, and will eventually turn on their creators. Even if it's just for being there. Say something bad happened to me. Who am I gonna be angry at? God? I might as well take a long walk off a short pier. Or go off and pound sand. I'll do the same amount of good. But if I have a tangible being right there, I have laser focus.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 15, 2017 1:22:50 GMT
Dude. That's like, sh*tty lore inception, right there. Meh. I don't really think that the catalyst was wrong. Organic life doesn't know who created them. Synthetic beings know who created them, and will eventually turn on their creators. Even if it's just for being there. Say something bad happened to me. Who am I gonna be angry at? God? I might as well take a long walk off a short pier. Or go off and pound sand. I'll do the same amount of good. But if I have a tangible being right there, I have laser focus. SOunds like someting we spent half of ME2 dealing with...
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