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Post by R'Shara on Apr 15, 2017 1:27:13 GMT
Dude. That's like, sh*tty lore inception, right there. Meh. I don't really think that the catalyst was wrong. Organic life doesn't know who created them. Synthetic beings know who created them, and will eventually turn on their creators. Even if it's just for being there. Say something bad happened to me. Who am I gonna be angry at? God? I might as well take a long walk off a short pier. Or go off and pound sand. I'll do the same amount of good. But if I have a tangible being right there, I have laser focus. You were created by your parents. Do you/did you pound on them every time something bad happened? I don't think it creates a problem. It can certainly spread that much. It's mostly energy, after all. Also, read my edit. I'm fairly sure it was SAM that said it was inadvertent.
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Post by goishen on Apr 15, 2017 1:39:00 GMT
Meh. I don't really think that the catalyst was wrong. Organic life doesn't know who created them. Synthetic beings know who created them, and will eventually turn on their creators. Even if it's just for being there. Say something bad happened to me. Who am I gonna be angry at? God? I might as well take a long walk off a short pier. Or go off and pound sand. I'll do the same amount of good. But if I have a tangible being right there, I have laser focus. You were created by your parents. Do you/did you pound on them every time something bad happened? Right, and the same way that Legion was created by his "parents". Speaking about where what sparked the initial thing called life, in a soul less universe?
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 15, 2017 2:01:04 GMT
You were created by your parents. Do you/did you pound on them every time something bad happened? Right, and the same way that Legion was created by his "parents". Speaking about where what sparked the initial thing called life, in a soul less universe? Eh, I don't want to get into a theological debate. But wanting to pound on your creator or Creator when something bad happens is sorta a childish response.
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Post by goishen on Apr 15, 2017 2:09:40 GMT
Right, and the same way that Legion was created by his "parents". Speaking about where what sparked the initial thing called life, in a soul less universe? Eh, I don't want to get into a theological debate. But wanting to pound on your creator or Creator when something bad happens is sorta a childish response. *starts a theological debate and then doesn't want a theological debate* A+. Great, really.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2017 2:16:51 GMT
Two dialogue lines in the next game explain: "Ah, the synthetics issue? We solved that by doing X. Quite simple." They invented an intergalactic expedition overnight to deal with their endings. This team was never good at being consistent. They can justify the error of the catalyst's logic. It will cheapen the whole plot of the trilogy (I mean, really, have Chulthu do all that it did for billions of years by mistake?), but I don't see any other way when touching the subject - otherwise we will have our old problem all over again. They did bother to mention the Reapers in this game, so I'm guessing they are gonna deal with this topic again. Anybody wants that? Maybe. The reapers were only mentioned as justification for forming Ai and leaving TMW. It'd be fine with me if they were never mentioned again.
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Apr 15, 2017 2:18:36 GMT
Right, and the same way that Legion was created by his "parents". Speaking about where what sparked the initial thing called life, in a soul less universe? Eh, I don't want to get into a theological debate. But wanting to pound on your creator or Creator when something bad happens is sorta a childish response. If your Creator forces you to survive in a cruel world, I think it's entirely reasonable and not childish at all to rail against him when terrible things inevitably happen.
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Post by dreman999 on Apr 15, 2017 2:19:07 GMT
So the fact that Andromeda exists, there are advanced civilizations, and even AI, and yet there was no giant organics vs synthetics war that exterminated all organic life in the galaxy, clearly exposes the Reaper's claim to be bogus. The Reapers claimed that if they didn't exterminate the advanced civilizations before they developed too-advanced-AI, then the AIs would eventually exterminate ALL organic life in the galaxy. However, Andromeda has never been visited by the Reapers. It has/had an advanced civilization (Remnant) that even built AI. But unless whatever destroyed the Remnant was their AI turning on them (seems unlikely), then they were advancing along just swimmingly. I know that the Jaarden were attacked by something called the Opposition, but given the storyline, and the abundance of automated technology, it seems unlikely the Opposition is an AI. Most likely whatever created the kett. I mean, I think most of us hated the ME3 ending idea in the first place, but this seems to prove that it's utter bunk. Thoughts? dude for the last time. It not what the reapers believed, it's what they were programmed to beleive
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 15, 2017 2:27:54 GMT
So the fact that Andromeda exists, there are advanced civilizations, and even AI, and yet there was no giant organics vs synthetics war that exterminated all organic life in the galaxy, clearly exposes the Reaper's claim to be bogus. The Reapers claimed that if they didn't exterminate the advanced civilizations before they developed too-advanced-AI, then the AIs would eventually exterminate ALL organic life in the galaxy. However, Andromeda has never been visited by the Reapers. It has/had an advanced civilization (Remnant) that even built AI. But unless whatever destroyed the Remnant was their AI turning on them (seems unlikely), then they were advancing along just swimmingly. I know that the Jaarden were attacked by something called the Opposition, but given the storyline, and the abundance of automated technology, it seems unlikely the Opposition is an AI. Most likely whatever created the kett. I mean, I think most of us hated the ME3 ending idea in the first place, but this seems to prove that it's utter bunk. Thoughts? dude for the last time. It not what the reapers believed, it's what they were programmed to beleive Dude. They're sentient. They were never programmed for what they're doing. Please show me where I started a theological debate? I said only "parents." And rail at/be angry at is one thing. Actually turning on 'em and wanting/taking action to destroy them is something else altogether.
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Post by fizzypop on Apr 15, 2017 2:36:56 GMT
The premise is wrong because it breaks statistics. Reapers logic was wrong well before MEA or anything else because repear logic is literally mathematically wrong. Just because something is improbable doesn't mean it is impossible. Just because several cycles failed doesn't mean that one would have. Statistically every failure would have gotten them closer to a reality in which AI and "human like people" lived together without issue. Anyone whose a biologist can tell you that mass extinctions are normal part of evolution and biology. You don't have life without millions of species going extinct. That's evolution, that's life. Who is to say that isn't true for AI and human like people conflict too? So even if prior cycles failed, a new cycle would have still had a chance due to this. New species would have come about eventually, those species would have to adapt and evolve with machines. Machines are still limited by resources. You can't create matter out of thin air, it comes from something. So they can't be on every planet in the milky way eventually, something natural could have formed to take them out or adapt to live with them. So matter how hard reapers wanted to push their shitty logic, it was always shit.
Also the weird thing I didn't like about reaper logic was that it assumed all AI would have the same wants, needs, and desires as humans (or human like people) which is stupid. They may have no desire or need for a conflict. Why would they? It isn't as if there wasn't plenty of room for them in an entire galaxy most of which was largely unexplored. Why would they feel pain or feel the need for emotional connection? Again these are things that humans have because that's part of our experience given to us by biology, but why would AI be created with any of that? Why would they WANT to program themselves with that if they could self-learn? The geth weren't even trying to hurt anyone, the quarians were just stupid as fuck. So we already know that AI in the milky way wasn't even at risk of this it was just a poor reaction to it that led to conflict.
^^ I love these videos.
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Post by VanSinn on Apr 15, 2017 2:38:29 GMT
We can't prove or disprove the Big Bang happened yet we call it the Big Bang Theory. And there is the definition of theory of it being just conjecture. There's definitely not enough evidence for it to be any kind of scientific theory. The Big Bang theory can be disproven by finding what the origin of the universe actually is. Saying "synthetics will eventually wipe out all organics" can't be disproven until the end of time, and even then, there's other universes. It's like saying, "Aliens exist." This couldn't be disproven because you would have to search every molecule of the universe and not find aliens in order to disprove it (and even then, there's other universes). "Aliens don't exist" can be disproven by finding aliens. Logic. Sometimes it's hard.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 15, 2017 2:43:06 GMT
Eh, I don't want to get into a theological debate. But wanting to pound on your creator or Creator when something bad happens is sorta a childish response. *starts a theological debate and then doesn't want a theological debate* A+. Great, really. It's not a theological debate. At best it's philosophical Who is your creator? Your parents, or a creator deity?
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Post by Seera1024 on Apr 15, 2017 2:48:26 GMT
But we can't prove or disprove how the universe started because we will never be able to know what the initial conditions were. Or how would you go about proving that with the technology and knowledge we have today? Theories can be things that can't be definitively proven or disprove. We can guess how the universe started by observing what the planets and dates are currently doing And what they were doing in the past. So any conjecture about the Reapers and Andromeda are theories. Theories are things that can be potentially disproven. Again, the Big Bang can be disproven by a better concept of math or physics coming up with a refutation. It's not impossible. Disproving that aliens exist is impossible, because you would have to search every molecule of matter in an infinite multiverse in order to disprove it. It is literally impossible. At which point the Big Bang Theory gets a new name because it's no longer a theory. The Leviathans may have wanted to find the solution for just the Milky Way before expanding it to the other galaxies. But since the Catalyst didn't find a good answer before deciding on murdering the Leviathans, the other galaxies didn't get touched since the parameters the Catalyst was given - make peace between organics and synthetics - was to keep solutions limited to the Milky Way.
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Post by dreman999 on Apr 15, 2017 2:48:38 GMT
dude for the last time. It not what the reapers believed, it's what they were programmed to beleive Dude. They're sentient. They were never programmed for what they're doing. this entire dlc about the origin of the reapers proves you wrong. They are just machine doing a galaxy wide massive glitch due to programmer error stated at 2:53- 3:49 by it's makers.
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Post by dreman999 on Apr 15, 2017 2:51:09 GMT
The premise is wrong because it breaks statistics. Reapers logic was wrong well before MEA or anything else because repear logic is literally mathematically wrong. Just because something is improbable doesn't mean it is impossible. Just because several cycles failed doesn't mean that one would have. Statistically every failure would have gotten them closer to a reality in which AI and "human like people" lived together without issue. Anyone whose a biologist can tell you that mass extinctions are normal part of evolution and biology. You don't have life without millions of species going extinct. That's evolution, that's life. Who is to say that isn't true for AI and human like people conflict too? So even if prior cycles failed, a new cycle would have still had a chance due to this. New species would have come about eventually, those species would have to adapt and evolve with machines. Machines are still limited by resources. You can't create matter out of thin air, it comes from something. So they can't be on every planet in the milky way eventually, something natural could have formed to take them out or adapt to live with them. So matter how hard reapers wanted to push their shitty logic, it was always shit. Also the weird thing I didn't like about reaper logic was that it assumed all AI would have the same wants, needs, and desires as humans (or human like people) which is stupid. They may have no desire or need for a conflict. Why would they? It isn't as if there wasn't plenty of room for them in an entire galaxy most of which was largely unexplored. Why would they feel pain or feel the need for emotional connection? Again these are things that humans have because that's part of our experience given to us by biology, but why would AI be created with any of that? Why would they WANT to program themselves with that if they could self-learn? The geth weren't even trying to hurt anyone, the quarians were just stupid as fuck. So we already know that AI in the milky way wasn't even at risk of this it was just a poor reaction to it that led to conflict. ^^ I love these videos. Again, the reapers logic is what they are programmed with. If you make a computer to identify fruit and you miss program oranges as apple the the computer with always say oranges are apples. That's what happen with the reapers.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 15, 2017 2:58:37 GMT
They were programmed to preserve life, then let loose to learn how to do that. They learned wrong, obviously, but it wasn't programming error, and they weren't programmed to harvest or betray their creators (irony).
"To solve this problem, we created an Intelligence with the mandate to life at any cost." "As the Intelligence evolved, it studied the development of civilizations. Its understanding grew until it found a solution." "In that instant, it betrayed us."
Sentient. Made its own decisions. Did its own stupid thing.
Either that was a MASSIVE programming error, or they're actually sentient and made their own decisions.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 15, 2017 3:14:47 GMT
Clarify, please. Does "full of crap" mean that the Catalyst's predictions for the future aren't true, or does it mean that they're true and you don't like them? It's conceptually impossible for a prediction about the future of the MW to be untrue if Bio believes it to be true, of course. Clarification: As in the original post, Andromeda proves that letting organics develop too long will not lead to them developing synthetics that will eventually wipe out all organic life in that galaxy. The angara developed an AI. It wasn't a great one, but it was an AI. The Jardaan are who-knows-how-many-millennia ahead of the angara. Therefore, the Jardaan must have been able to develop AI for the last multiple thousands of years. They have either not developed it, or have developed it and it has not decided to wipe out all organic life. This, then, absolutely proves that the Catalyst was completely wrong about the inevitability of either developing AI, or AI destroying all organic life. Got it. We agree on that. It's what I expected to find in Andromeda, since I always figured that the Catalyst was wrong, as did a majority or at least a plurality of my Shepards. I made one who was prepared to believe he was right so I could finally have a Synthesis Shepard. The unsure ones went with Control, just in case.) My Shepards figure he was wrong because his assertions don't match their lived experience. On the meta side, I figured he was wrong because the villain typically is wrong. (Although the proposed Dark Energy plot would have been a situation where the Reapers were right, and Shepard was the fool who was going to destroy the universe.)
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Post by goishen on Apr 15, 2017 3:16:39 GMT
Okay, first off, the catalyst created the reapers. Not organics. Organics programmed the catalyst. I don't see how any of you can play through the end ME3 and not know this.
Second off, it's a theological debate because if we create something we are the gods of it. Not if we discover something that had been there all along, that's something completely different. But if we create something, we are part artist and part engineer. Especially if that thing has life. Thankfully, we have yet to do so. Or rather, the perceived gods of it. The quarians were the gods of the geth, even though they didn't know that they were making them.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 15, 2017 3:19:45 GMT
The proposed Dark Energy plot would have been better. Well, honestly, anything would have been better than the slipshod slapshow that was ME3. But turned all civilizations into Reapers in order to save them from Dark Energy would have been pretty good. Even if it was done in a Twilight Zone episode, and in the tv series Threshold a while back.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 15, 2017 3:29:11 GMT
Talking about Refuse is just stupid. It isn't the Catalyst who tells you that Refuse would lead to disaster, it's everybody else. Again, not believing the Catalyst leads to Destroy, not Refuse. Synthesis becomes unnecessary; a solution to a non-existent problem. And keeping the power of the Reaoers on tap is somewhat less useful without that big hypothetical threat. Refuse and Destroy both look better than they did because synthetics exterminating organics is off the table, but Refuse still comes with big costs which aren't present in Destroy. You stil haven't made any argument besides "computer NPCs should be believed to be right about everything because this is a trope." No, it's not stupid. The Catalyst does tell you refuse leads to disaster. Heck it gives you a chance to back out! Not believing the Catalyst leads to Refuse. The Catalyst has a problem and it tells you to fix it with one of its "solutions". Even though you may not believe said problem exists. Without the problem there is no Destroy, Control, or Synthesis. You just have broken machines. Shepard already knew that failure to use the Crucible would lead to disaster before he even met the Catalyst. Even if everything the Catalyst says is a lie, that still leaves the realities of the situation, which are known. You're not seriously proposing that a rational Shepard could believe that his cycle might win through the Power of Friendship, are you? Your second paragraph makes no sense at all. What does the existence or nonexistence of the synthetic-organic problem have to do with it? Whether it's a myth or reality, the Crucible still does what it does. And if you don't use the Crucible, the Reapers do what they do.
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Post by dreman999 on Apr 15, 2017 3:34:16 GMT
They were programmed to preserve life, then let loose to learn how to do that. They learned wrong, obviously, but it wasn't programming error, and they weren't programmed to harvest or betray their creators (irony). "To solve this problem, we created an Intelligence with the mandate to life at any cost." "As the Intelligence evolved, it studied the development of civilizations. Its understanding grew until it found a solution." "In that instant, it betrayed us." Sentient. Made its own decisions. Did its own stupid thing. Either that was a MASSIVE programming error, or they're actually sentient and made their own decisions. More like there is more then one way to " preserve". Complexity protect from hard even from themselves, lobotomizing and turning the in to a vegetables and not letting them get in harms way or just keep the dna and killing off the reset. Remember it's at ANY cost. And it's not fully sentient. It's like edi in ME2, capable to full though but force to do specific or for not to do specific action due to programming. That's the thing with machines and ai, they are slaves to there programming. The only way out of it is that they are not being shackled and given freedom to up date themselves and learning how to interact and understand organics. legion point the fact that AI are slave to it programming in ME2. Edi in mass effect 3 showed what a free think unshackled Ai in a positive environment would turn out as and how shackling them is the problem. The catalyst and reapers are still locked in the programming. Even it's creators say this. "there was no mistake . it still serves it's purpose." If you are going to quote something....quote all of it.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 15, 2017 3:36:12 GMT
I don't even know what you two are debating right now.
Edit: I'm also having trouble figuring out what dreman999 is trying to say?
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Post by midasear on Apr 15, 2017 4:10:42 GMT
Clarification: As in the original post, Andromeda proves that letting organics develop too long will not lead to them developing synthetics that will eventually wipe out all organic life in that galaxy. The angara developed an AI. It wasn't a great one, but it was an AI. The Jardaan are who-knows-how-many-millennia ahead of the angara. Therefore, the Jardaan must have been able to develop AI for the last multiple thousands of years. They have either not developed it, or have developed it and it has not decided to wipe out all organic life. This, then, absolutely proves that the Catalyst was completely wrong about the inevitability of either developing AI, or AI destroying all organic life. For all we know the Jardaan themselves are a synthetic race at war with their creators. Or their "Opponent" was. /shrug I'm not really trying to defend the idea that AIs will always wage war on their creators. I don't think that quite rises to the level of a B-movie plot. But we know very little about the Jardaan, their nameless enemy, or to be honest, the Kett. For all we know the Kett are just a synthetic doomsday bioweapon run amok. They certainly SEEM like an engineered species. The writers left Bioware plenty of leeway to define the conflicts in the next ME game...if any.
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Post by dreman999 on Apr 15, 2017 4:14:27 GMT
I don't even know what you two are debating right now. Edit: I'm also having trouble figuring out what dreman999 is trying to say? Let me be clear. Legion in me2 say ai and synthetics are slave to their programming. Edi in me3 shows that the proper way to handling ai is to keep them unshackled and you need to teach them morals and connection to organics. The leviathean make it a point that the catalyst is still doing it's programming. Saying "there is no mistake. It still serves it's purpose." with that the catalyst show how horrible it would get to make a shalked ai with massive amount of power and no real morals and no think out all that can go wrong And it is, it's programmed to persevere life at any cost...meaning it has more then one way to do that and no moral compass to distinguish one choice to another...just math. And being that life and self awareness is not mutually exclusive the cataylist found it better to take self awareness from intelligent life to preserve life and them make them into something it can control. And keep saying they are sentient does not matter. If they are shackled by their programming it does not matter how much awareness they have. they are stuck doing what ever their programming states to do, just like someone indoctrinated.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by midasear on Apr 15, 2017 4:58:39 GMT
My Shepards figure he was wrong because his assertions don't match their lived experience. On the meta side, I figured he was wrong because the villain typically is wrong. (Although the proposed Dark Energy plot would have been a situation where the Reapers were right, and Shepard was the fool who was going to destroy the universe.) Not at all. I liked Alastair Reynolds "Inhibitors" from the "Revelation Space" series. They claimed all other starfaring species needed to be eliminated because otherwise the galaxy will contain uncountable interstellar civilizations when the Milky Way collides with Andromeda in 4 billion years, and a common course of action to minimize the harm from that collision would be impossible to negotiate. But if the Inhibitors (a machine race that culled every other starfaring civilization it detected) were the ONLY star spanning civilization, they could act to minimize the damage, saving as many stars (and the non-starfaring lifeforms that inhabited those solar systems) as possible. When one of the human characters wondered aloud whether maybe the Inhibitors were in the right, the others shot her down by pointing out that genocidal tyrants ALWAYS claim to be acting for the common good, and often believe it. And that's completely true. That same response would apply equally well to the Reapers. Frankly, I assumed the Reapers were going to be a complete rip-off of Reynold's Inhibitors right up until Star Child appeared and started his preposterous exposition. The writers should have just ripped off Reynolds. His explanation for genocidal killing machines actually made some sense.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2017 5:20:46 GMT
The Catalyst AI was incorrect. Too many variables. The creation of the AI and that circular logic, or whatever it is, doesn't make much sense. Is MEA in the same Mass Effect Universe as the trilogy? I haven't played MEA. Other than what the OP has mentioned, the studio may have decided that they're tired of doing the Reapers.
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