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Post by kino on Apr 14, 2017 20:07:48 GMT
According to Leviathan they saw the cycle of synthetics turning against organics multiple times, which is when they created an AI to find a solution to the problem. Which is why you get the Reapers. (If haven't played the Leviathan DLC you should. One of the best pieces of DLC they released for ME3, imo.)
As for the Initiative, there is exposition that explains the working relationship between a Pathfinder and SAM.
And, no, many did not hate the ending.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 14, 2017 20:12:10 GMT
My only point is that Andromeda not having been reaped doesn't discount anything in MET and doesn't make the ending for the MET any weaker. I'd say it makes Shepard's "victory" already tainted, all the more hollow. So much death and a RGB "solution" for NOTHING You're saying that the villains being wrong makes things worse than if the villains were right?
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Post by Andronic0s on Apr 14, 2017 20:14:35 GMT
There are 200 billion galaxies in the observable universe. The starkid expects me to believe that in all those galaxies there will be AI created that will all rebel, fight and win galactic wars. Then decide they want to exterminate all organic life in their galaxies so no more organics can evolve and I guess this means actively search and destroy new star systems as they form with life bearing worlds too. If the starkid just means in the milky way, then what's the point of the cycle? organics will continue to exist in other galaxies so there's no need to preserve them and why would the milky way be special regarding AI extermination? Andromeda doesnt need to debunk anything because ME3 already debunks itself by the sheer ridiculness of its plot. I prefer to believe that the starkid's code became corrupted at some point. Causing it to do what it did and it's unaware that its logic is flawed and his motivations make no sense. So the reaper war is one giant fight against a computer bug
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Post by Seera1024 on Apr 14, 2017 20:21:25 GMT
It's ONE POSSIBLE explanation for why no evidence of Reapers in the Andromeda galaxy. The MET ending is fairly weak. Why leave any organics remaining if all they do is develop AI and cause untold amounts of chaos? My only point is that Andromeda not having been reaped doesn't discount anything in MET and doesn't make the ending for the MET any weaker. It doesn't matter that there is no evidence of Reapers in Andromeda. It matters that Reapers never went there at all, and the galaxy's organic life is fine. Don't need Andromeda to know the Catalyst is full of it - at least with regards to the solution to the perceived problem. Just because the war between organics and synthetics hasn't happened to our knowledge in Andromeda doesn't mean it won't. It also doesn't mean it hasn't happened already. We don't know what happened to the Jardaan. Maybe there was a ware between the Jardaan and their AI and they won but with too few numbers to sustain a viable species and they went extinct due to lack of reproducing or to genetic defects that inbreeding has.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 14, 2017 20:25:18 GMT
I'd say it makes Shepard's "victory" already tainted, all the more hollow. So much death and a RGB "solution" for NOTHING You're saying that the villains being wrong makes things worse than if the villains were right? I think the villains being ridiculously, stupidly, obviously wrong makes things worse Especially when the writers are touting that the villains are right. As someone mentioned on a previous page, it's not even a valid theory because it can't be disproven. But Andromeda's been around for billions of years and organic life is hopping along just fine.
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Post by wellsoul2 on Apr 14, 2017 20:25:36 GMT
The whole premise is kind of dumb. If machine life is superior then why do they have to harvest organic life? Why isn't their research and technology infinitely superior since they can process information at greater speed? Sure I can see some race programming them as a weapon so they are stupidly doing the same thing over and over but that hardly seems the most likely outcome in every galaxy.
With a galaxy of many more planets that do not support organic life there is more than enough space for machine life without interfering with organic life. And why would you make an organic reaper when a machine reaper is superior?
So I would say it only makes sense if the Reapers are badly programmed by their creators as some kind of perpetual revenge machine.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 14, 2017 20:39:37 GMT
You're saying that the villains being wrong makes things worse than if the villains were right? I think the villains being ridiculously, stupidly, obviously wrong makes things worse Especially when the writers are touting that the villains are right. This
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Post by Iakus on Apr 14, 2017 20:42:46 GMT
Why? Destroy is the ending were the most can go wrong (You can blow up the entire relay network with low enough score) The Catalyst makes it clear that eventually "the chaos will return" And as an added bit of fun, you genocide all AI everywhere in the galaxy. Whereas with Synthesis, not only is there no "bad version" but it has the highest amount of War Assets required to unlock. And the Expositron 9000 outright tells you it's the optimal solution. So while Bioware doesn't outright tell you a given chocie is "a huge mistake" They make it abundantly clear that some options are just plain BETTER than others. I don't see how this is a response to my point. Whatever else you want to say about Destroy, there is no hint that it leads to synthetics overrunning the galaxy. YetThe Catalyst states quite specifically that it will happen eventually. "The chaos will return"
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Post by AnDromedary on Apr 14, 2017 20:47:09 GMT
The whole premise is kind of dumb. If machine life is superior then why do they have to harvest organic life? Why isn't their research and technology infinitely superior since they can process information at greater speed? Sure I can see some race programming them as a weapon so they are stupidly doing the same thing over and over but that hardly seems the most likely outcome in every galaxy. With a galaxy of many more planets that do not support organic life there is more than enough space for machine life without interfering with organic life. And why would you make an organic reaper when a machine reaper is superior? So I would say it only makes sense if the Reapers are badly programmed by their creators as some kind of perpetual revenge machine. But the created ALWAYS rebell against their creators man, it's inevitable ... we'll, unless you make everyone green and happy!
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Post by Seera1024 on Apr 14, 2017 21:04:29 GMT
You're saying that the villains being wrong makes things worse than if the villains were right? I think the villains being ridiculously, stupidly, obviously wrong makes things worse Especially when the writers are touting that the villains are right. As someone mentioned on a previous page, it's not even a valid theory because it can't be disproven. But Andromeda's been around for billions of years and organic life is hopping along just fine. We can't prove or disprove the Big Bang happened yet we call it the Big Bang Theory. And there is the definition of theory of it being just conjecture. There's definitely not enough evidence for it to be any kind of scientific theory.
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Post by jastall on Apr 14, 2017 21:21:57 GMT
I figured the Catalyst always saw the Synthetic vs Organic relationship as one of dominant vs dominated because the Leviathan saw things in such a way, and (badly) programmed their creation as such. There wasn't a place for cooperation because the Leviathans didn't believe in it, being conquerors and overlords themselves who saw their race as above all others.
So the Catalyst certainly wasn't spouting an universal truth. Or if Bioware intended it that way, it didn't come across very well (as with most things about these shit endings) so I just disregard it, as Bioware's own writers seem to now. That AI in Andromeda is able to exist without exterminating organics makes sense in that context to me. It's not like said cooperation is always rosy either, as the Voeld AI can attest to.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 14, 2017 21:23:43 GMT
I think the villains being ridiculously, stupidly, obviously wrong makes things worse Especially when the writers are touting that the villains are right. As someone mentioned on a previous page, it's not even a valid theory because it can't be disproven. But Andromeda's been around for billions of years and organic life is hopping along just fine. We can't prove or disprove the Big Bang happened yet we call it the Big Bang Theory. And there is the definition of theory of it being just conjecture. There's definitely not enough evidence for it to be any kind of scientific theory. The Big Bang theory can be disproven by finding what the origin of the universe actually is. Saying "synthetics will eventually wipe out all organics" can't be disproven until the end of time, and even then, there's other universes. It's like saying, "Aliens exist." This couldn't be disproven because you would have to search every molecule of the universe and not find aliens in order to disprove it (and even then, there's other universes). "Aliens don't exist" can be disproven by finding aliens.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 14, 2017 21:27:35 GMT
The whole premise is kind of dumb. If machine life is superior then why do they have to harvest organic life? Why isn't their research and technology infinitely superior since they can process information at greater speed? Sure I can see some race programming them as a weapon so they are stupidly doing the same thing over and over but that hardly seems the most likely outcome in every galaxy. This is a little bit confused. The purpose of the harvests isn't to defend against organics, which are, as you say, inferior. The purpose is to prevent superior AIs from being developed. Sure, it makes no sense to exterminate organics rather than just reduce them to a lower technological level. But the cycles are what ME1 stuck us with.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 14, 2017 21:30:45 GMT
The whole premise is kind of dumb. If machine life is superior then why do they have to harvest organic life? Why isn't their research and technology infinitely superior since they can process information at greater speed? Sure I can see some race programming them as a weapon so they are stupidly doing the same thing over and over but that hardly seems the most likely outcome in every galaxy. This is a little bit confused. The purpose of the harvests isn't to defend against organics, which are, as you say, inferior. The purpose is to prevent superior AIs from being developed. Sure, it makes no sense to exterminate organics rather than just reduce them to a lower technological level. But the cycles are what ME1 stuck us with. Or just say that the Reaper's sole remaining organic imperative was to reproduce every 50k years. Take the most advanced races to add to their own numbers.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 14, 2017 23:28:55 GMT
It's not terrible, but let's say that the timer is just an average. 50,000 years is plenty of time to go from cavemen to way past the Protheans, so they might have to harvest faster sometimes. It's also a horribly inefficient procedure, but maybe the Reapers find war to be fun?
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 14, 2017 23:34:46 GMT
The asari were around before the Protheans were exterminated, and were even advanced by them, so it does seem to take at least 50k years.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 15, 2017 0:05:01 GMT
I don't see how this is a response to my point. Whatever else you want to say about Destroy, there is no hint that it leads to synthetics overrunning the galaxy. YetThe Catalyst states quite specifically that it will happen eventually. "The chaos will return" What the Catalyst states is not relevant. Nobody's arguing that he doesn't believe what he's saying.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 15, 2017 0:07:21 GMT
YetThe Catalyst states quite specifically that it will happen eventually. "The chaos will return" What the Catalyst states is not relevant. Nobody's arguing that he doesn't believe what he's saying. But what I'm arguing is the Catalyst is supposed to be believed. That everything the Catalyst says is true, even if we the players roll our eyes and go "this is such BS" Just as we are supposed to implicitly trust that Vigil's theories and speculations on the Reapers is accurate. Just as we're supposed to trust EDI's analyses of the Collectors.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 15, 2017 0:07:42 GMT
Err how is it not relevant? That's kind of the point of my thread...that Andromeda proves everything about ME3's ending was completely bogus, particularly the Catalyst. Synthetics did not destroy all organic life in Andromeda.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 15, 2017 0:11:21 GMT
What the Catalyst states is not relevant. Nobody's arguing that he doesn't believe what he's saying. But what I'm arguing is the Catalyst is supposed to be believed. That everything the Catalyst says is true, even if we the players roll our eyes and go "this is such BS" Just as we are supposed to implicitly trust that Vigil's theories and speculations on the Reapers is accurate. Just as we're supposed to trust EDI's analyses of the Collectors. You haven't so much been making an argument as asserting that your conclusion is true. Actually, your argument is quite similar to the Catalyst's. Why should I believe you two?
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Post by Iakus on Apr 15, 2017 0:13:06 GMT
But what I'm arguing is the Catalyst is supposed to be believed. That everything the Catalyst says is true, even if we the players roll our eyes and go "this is such BS" Just as we are supposed to implicitly trust that Vigil's theories and speculations on the Reapers is accurate. Just as we're supposed to trust EDI's analyses of the Collectors. You haven't so much been making an argument as asserting that your conclusion is true. Actually, your argument is quite similar to the Catalyst's. Why should I believe you two? The same reason you have to believe Vigil. Or better yet, go ahead, don't believe the Catalyst. Bioware put in a special ending just for that occurrence "SO BE IT!!!"
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Post by midasear on Apr 15, 2017 0:13:29 GMT
So the fact that Andromeda exists, there are advanced civilizations, and even AI, and yet there was no giant organics vs synthetics war that exterminated all organic life in the galaxy, clearly exposes the Reaper's claim to be bogus. For all we know the Scourge was deployed by an AI rebelling against the Remnant. Maybe the use of a Scourge-like weapon in the Milky Way was when the Leviathans decided they'd had enough of organic vs. synthetic shenanigans.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 15, 2017 0:18:06 GMT
So the fact that Andromeda exists, there are advanced civilizations, and even AI, and yet there was no giant organics vs synthetics war that exterminated all organic life in the galaxy, clearly exposes the Reaper's claim to be bogus. For all we know the Scourge was deployed by an AI rebelling against the Remnant. Maybe the use of a Scourge-like weapon in the Milky Way was when the Leviathans decided they'd had enough of organic vs. synthetic shenanigans. Nope, the Scourge was an accident caused by the Opposition bombing the Jardaan base where Meridian was.
Narratively, it seems very unlikely that Bioware would go for the same enemy/type of enemy as in MET, which means it's not going to be a synthetics vs organics thing.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 15, 2017 0:22:18 GMT
But what I'm arguing is the Catalyst is supposed to be believed. That everything the Catalyst says is true, even if we the players roll our eyes and go "this is such BS" Just as we are supposed to implicitly trust that Vigil's theories and speculations on the Reapers is accurate. Just as we're supposed to trust EDI's analyses of the Collectors. You haven't so much been making an argument as asserting that your conclusion is true. Actually, your argument is quite similar to the Catalyst's. Why should I believe you two? ?? He's making the same argument I am. The Catalyst was full of BS. He was supposed to be believed, he was the ultimate answer(er). But he was full of crap.
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Post by nthjester on Apr 15, 2017 0:23:49 GMT
So the fact that Andromeda exists, there are advanced civilizations, and even AI, and yet there was no giant organics vs synthetics war that exterminated all organic life in the galaxy, clearly exposes the Reaper's claim to be bogus. The Reapers claimed that if they didn't exterminate the advanced civilizations before they developed too-advanced-AI, then the AIs would eventually exterminate ALL organic life in the galaxy. However, Andromeda has never been visited by the Reapers. It has/had an advanced civilization (Remnant) that even built AI. But unless whatever destroyed the Remnant was their AI turning on them (seems unlikely), then they were advancing along just swimmingly. I know that the Jaarden were attacked by something called the Opposition, but given the storyline, and the abundance of automated technology, it seems unlikely the Opposition is an AI. Most likely whatever created the kett. I mean, I think most of us hated the ME3 ending idea in the first place, but this seems to prove that it's utter bunk. Thoughts? The AI on voeld wanted to kill people... just like the reapers it was basically insane and wanted to kill you to make you leave it alone. The remnants are VI, virtual intelligence and not at all what the reapers were which is artificial intelligence.
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