R'Shara
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 15, 2017 5:23:41 GMT
The Catalyst AI was incorrect. Too many variables. The creation of the AI and that circular logic, or whatever it is, doesn't make much sense. Is MEA in the same Mass Effect Universe as the trilogy? I haven't played MEA. Other than what the OP has mentioned, the studio may have decided that they're tired of doing the Reapers. Too tired to argue with people right now Yes, it's in the same universe. But the people left the Milky Way between ME2 and ME3, and took a 600 year journey to Andromeda. No way to communicate, etc, etc, so it's kinda a reboot.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2017 5:39:44 GMT
The Catalyst AI was incorrect. Too many variables. The creation of the AI and that circular logic, or whatever it is, doesn't make much sense. Is MEA in the same Mass Effect Universe as the trilogy? I haven't played MEA. Other than what the OP has mentioned, the studio may have decided that they're tired of doing the Reapers. Too tired to argue with people right now Yes, it's in the same universe. But the people left the Milky Way between ME2 and ME3, and took a 600 year journey to Andromeda. No way to communicate, etc, etc, so it's kinda a reboot. Kinda hard to explain it away in the narrative right now I guess. The AI and Reapers had been around for nearly a billion years.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 15, 2017 5:44:37 GMT
My Shepards figure he was wrong because his assertions don't match their lived experience. On the meta side, I figured he was wrong because the villain typically is wrong. (Although the proposed Dark Energy plot would have been a situation where the Reapers were right, and Shepard was the fool who was going to destroy the universe.) Not at all. I liked Alastair Reynolds "Inhibitors" from the "Revelation Space" series. They claimed all other starfaring species needed to be eliminated because otherwise the galaxy will contain uncountable interstellar civilizations when the Milky Way collides with Andromeda in 4 billion years, and a common course of action to minimize the harm from that collision would be impossible to negotiate. But if the Inhibitors (a machine race that culled every other starfaring civilization it detected) were the ONLY star spanning civilization, they could act to minimize the damage, saving as many stars (and the non-starfaring lifeforms that inhabited those solar systems) as possible. When one of the human characters wondered aloud whether maybe the Inhibitors were in the right, the others shot her down by pointing out that genocidal tyrants ALWAYS claim to be acting for the common good, and often believe it. And that's completely true. That same response would apply equally well to the Reapers. Frankly, I assumed the Reapers were going to be a complete rip-off of Reynold's Inhibitors right up until Star Child appeared and started his preposterous exposition. The writers should have just ripped off Reynolds. His explanation for genocidal killing machines actually made some sense. Where are we disagreeing?
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Post by midasear on Apr 15, 2017 6:11:16 GMT
Where are we disagreeing? Even if a "Dark Energy" plotline had provided the Reapers with a seemingly sensible reason for committing multiple genocides, they still would have been in the wrong and Shepard (and everyone else) would have been right to oppose them. Nobody is obligated to lay down and die because their existence is an inconvenience for the powerful or the self-righteous.
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Post by SKAR on Apr 15, 2017 7:42:42 GMT
The chaos caused by organic and synthetic evolution is inevitable.
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Fen'Harel Faceman
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Apr 15, 2017 9:58:36 GMT
The chaos caused by organic and synthetic evolution is inevitable.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 15, 2017 10:07:27 GMT
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Post by kotoreffect3 on Apr 15, 2017 10:10:25 GMT
I have officially decided that I an going to say that I downright liked the ME 3 endings just to spite those that won't stop whining about it 5 years later. Long live ME 3, long live the catalyst, and long live Harbinger.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 15, 2017 10:18:10 GMT
I have officially decided that I an going to say that I downright liked the ME 3 endings just to spite those that won't stop whining about it 5 years later. Long live ME 3, long live the catalyst, and long live Harbinger. I almost wanna flag for trolling, which it is, but I find it too hilarious to do it.
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Post by ApocAlypsE on Apr 15, 2017 10:44:10 GMT
The proposed Dark Energy plot would have been better. Well, honestly, anything would have been better than the slipshod slapshow that was ME3. But turned all civilizations into Reapers in order to save them from Dark Energy would have been pretty good. And that is an another thing that could be touched in ME:A. The scourge could be a representative of what would happen if dark energy wouldn't be kept under control, maybe better than making it a colossal byproduct of the Jardaan war. Honestly, I think that ME:A would have been better if instead of hearing about the Jardaan we would actually see the highly advanced race in a Reaperless galaxy.
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Post by fraggle on Apr 15, 2017 10:49:21 GMT
For me there's no proof in the games for anything. It's up to the player to believe what will happen eventually. People claim that the truce between quarians and geth show that the Catalyst is incorrect, but then what does one truce mean? It can still happen in the future that synthetics wipe out organics. Just as the Catalyst can be wrong that it's inevitable that synthetics will always rebel against their creators.
I like ME3's ending because it's so open. I spent a lot of time reading and also participating in various debates over ME3's ending, and many people, no matter which side they're on, have come up with great points. No one is truly right or wrong, it all just boils down to personal belief and how their take is on the Catalyst's belief/programming.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 15, 2017 10:57:06 GMT
^ That but also not that. I always hated arguing the "is it true?" or not becuase like you say, it can be either. It's completely up to whatever fate would end up being the case which is almost random and the player is disarmed to be able to tell whether it's a definite outcome or not. That's why the ending sucked, however. Just throw in a blanket statement about some topic we've barely dissected over the course of the story and call it a day. Wow, what a great ending huh? This is why many others (I can't say "most" or "all" or people will persecute me, I've found out ) wanted a complete rewrite and personally I wanted an iteration of the ending where Shepard ARGUES with the boy so we're actively addressing the true problems the thesis brought up which is that Shepard and his galaxy are in no position to prove or disprove the Catalyst because his solution is too absolute. At the very least, regardless of whether I had to pick any color I just wanted the writing to resound the proper themes here, which is that Shepard is the hero and the symbol of hope for everyone so he should be frustrated with the idea of determinism regarding the thesis about Synthetics and Organics, and he should argue why it's unfair. All he does is briefly mention how we're organics and The Catalyst is reducing us to something less by taking away our freedom but that's not really dissecting the issue. I wanted him to argue why the assumption is wrong when we potentially save the Quarians and Geth and why there should be hope for a future without Synthesis where organics and synthetics coexist. That way the player's narrative would pay off. EDI's coming of humanity would pay off or not and the Rannoch arc would pay off or not. Finally The Catalyst would define "organic chaos" as not just "orgnaics vs synthetics" but also "organic overgrowth" pointing at the Krogan. Have Wreav and cure the Genophage and Shepard's counter-arguments about the peaceful potential in organics would reflect poorly on himself. Instead of a punctuated scene where Shepard doesn't shine and it's all Starchild's show it would be more like a judgement of Shepard as a hero and of the player, where a heroic outcome where there's an outlook of peace in the galaxy would result in the Catalyst unlocking a Destroy option that only kills all Reapers or he simply lets go of their control. A renegade-leaning outcome where you don't persuade him that Organics are good you can still tell him that organics have worth otherwise and he'll unlock Control and if EMS is high also Synthesis where the union of organic lifeforms is forced. Either way Synthesis would be the 100% outcome in terms of doing everything but a Paragon ending would result in real freedom on our terms and trust in our Synthetic friends, the Geth, EDI and organic partners if Wrex leads the Krogan. A renegade ending would result in control and dominance and arrogance or enslavement. It would actually feel like a more Mass Effect ending in the vibe of ME1 again.
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Post by nthjester on Apr 15, 2017 13:04:56 GMT
It means they aren't a synthetic race. They don't have the ability to take over the galaxy any more than the nomad or the nexus can. It's a bunch of machine slaves to programming. They can't learn, feel, have worries, or make plans. ....I still don't understand how your point is relevant to my assertion? Synthetics did not wipe out all possible organic life in Andromeda, despite the Starboy's assertion. The angara or the Jardaan had already advanced to the point of developing AI (which isn't a great example of an AI since it was self-destructive). It seems to have been the angara, which means that the Jardaan likely are waaaay beyond the point of being able to develop AI. And yet, Andromeda flourishes, more or less. No massive synthetic extinction event. So your whole point is that the reapers were wrong about synths? Duh.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 15, 2017 18:48:26 GMT
....I still don't understand how your point is relevant to my assertion? Synthetics did not wipe out all possible organic life in Andromeda, despite the Starboy's assertion. The angara or the Jardaan had already advanced to the point of developing AI (which isn't a great example of an AI since it was self-destructive). It seems to have been the angara, which means that the Jardaan likely are waaaay beyond the point of being able to develop AI. And yet, Andromeda flourishes, more or less. No massive synthetic extinction event. So your whole point is that the reapers were wrong about synths? Duh. Uhhhhmmmm yes? See the name of the topic and the first post? *scratches head*
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Post by griffith82 on Apr 15, 2017 19:57:59 GMT
Dude. That's like, sh*tty lore inception, right there. We must go dee-err... nevermind :poop: *loudspeaker* Cleanup on aisle 2!
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Post by Seera1024 on Apr 15, 2017 20:09:24 GMT
So your whole point is that the reapers were wrong about synths? Duh. Uhhhhmmmm yes? See the name of the topic and the first post? *scratches head* Yes, but the reason isn't right. The reapers aren't wrong because they haven't been to Andromeda. There's a number of plausible explanations that would still end up with the reapers being right but not ending up in Andromeda. There are a number of organic species that have gone extinct in the history of the universe that never created synthetics - the species in the Andromeda galaxy that we know of may just be some more advanced examples. And we don't know enough about how they developed to say if it was due to organics vs synthetics or not. The reapers are treating a theory as a law and seeding the developing species to develop along the same paths as the previous ones so they create a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts. If the reapers had gone to the Andromeda galaxy, the species that were advanced would have been reaped. Because to the reapers all organics eventually create synthetics that will rebel and the ensuing war will cause chaos. And therefore the reapers must step in to purge the advanced species in order to preserve order in the universe. Of course we wouldn't be in this situation if the writers of the MET had come up with a better ending. We're in this predicament due to weak ending. That's the real reason the reapers are wrong - because they were given a poor reason to begin with.
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Post by dreman999 on Apr 15, 2017 21:55:19 GMT
^ That but also not that. I always hated arguing the "is it true?" or not becuase like you say, it can be either. It's completely up to whatever fate would end up being the case which is almost random and the player is disarmed to be able to tell whether it's a definite outcome or not. That's why the ending sucked, however. Just throw in a blanket statement about some topic we've barely dissected over the course of the story and call it a day. Wow, what a great ending huh? This is why many others (I can't say "most" or "all" or people will persecute me, I've found out ) wanted a complete rewrite and personally I wanted an iteration of the ending where Shepard ARGUES with the boy so we're actively addressing the true problems the thesis brought up which is that Shepard and his galaxy are in no position to prove or disprove the Catalyst because his solution is too absolute. At the very least, regardless of whether I had to pick any color I just wanted the writing to resound the proper themes here, which is that Shepard is the hero and the symbol of hope for everyone so he should be frustrated with the idea of determinism regarding the thesis about Synthetics and Organics, and he should argue why it's unfair. All he does is briefly mention how we're organics and The Catalyst is reducing us to something less by taking away our freedom but that's not really dissecting the issue. I wanted him to argue why the assumption is wrong when we potentially save the Quarians and Geth and why there should be hope for a future without Synthesis where organics and synthetics coexist. That way the player's narrative would pay off. EDI's coming of humanity would pay off or not and the Rannoch arc would pay off or not. Finally The Catalyst would define "organic chaos" as not just "orgnaics vs synthetics" but also "organic overgrowth" pointing at the Krogan. Have Wreav and cure the Genophage and Shepard's counter-arguments about the peaceful potential in organics would reflect poorly on himself. Instead of a punctuated scene where Shepard doesn't shine and it's all Starchild's show it would be more like a judgement of Shepard as a hero and of the player, where a heroic outcome where there's an outlook of peace in the galaxy would result in the Catalyst unlocking a Destroy option that only kills all Reapers or he simply lets go of their control. A renegade-leaning outcome where you don't persuade him that Organics are good you can still tell him that organics have worth otherwise and he'll unlock Control and if EMS is high also Synthesis where the union of organic lifeforms is forced. Either way Synthesis would be the 100% outcome in terms of doing everything but a Paragon ending would result in real freedom on our terms and trust in our Synthetic friends, the Geth, EDI and organic partners if Wrex leads the Krogan. A renegade ending would result in control and dominance and arrogance or enslavement. It would actually feel like a more Mass Effect ending in the vibe of ME1 again. 1. we have been dealing with this issue from ME1. 2.ME is about trying to stop a race of ancient mind controlling machines from destroy all intelligent life in the galaxy. It was organics vs machines from the start. 3. the discussion did develop over time. With Legion and it's explanation on how synthetics work. And Edi learning morality 4.And Shepard does shut down the catalyst argument with one statement. "the defining characteristic of organic life is that we think for our selves, make our own choices. You take that away and we might as well be machines just like you." That one statement shut's down all the catalyst logic. If you are unset that the catalyst logic is wrong, then you missing the point that it's supposed to be wrong.
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R'Shara
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 15, 2017 22:34:57 GMT
Uhhhhmmmm yes? See the name of the topic and the first post? *scratches head* Yes, but the reason isn't right. The reapers aren't wrong because they haven't been to Andromeda. There's a number of plausible explanations that would still end up with the reapers being right but not ending up in Andromeda. There are a number of organic species that have gone extinct in the history of the universe that never created synthetics - the species in the Andromeda galaxy that we know of may just be some more advanced examples. And we don't know enough about how they developed to say if it was due to organics vs synthetics or not. The reapers are treating a theory as a law and seeding the developing species to develop along the same paths as the previous ones so they create a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts. If the reapers had gone to the Andromeda galaxy, the species that were advanced would have been reaped. Because to the reapers all organics eventually create synthetics that will rebel and the ensuing war will cause chaos. And therefore the reapers must step in to purge the advanced species in order to preserve order in the universe. Of course we wouldn't be in this situation if the writers of the MET had come up with a better ending. We're in this predicament due to weak ending. That's the real reason the reapers are wrong - because they were given a poor reason to begin with. I covered this viewpoint on page.... 2 or 3...I forget which. It's irrelevant that the Reapers never went to Andromeda. The fact that Andromeda exists WITHOUT Reapers, WITH intelligent organic life, proves that they were full of BS at the end.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 15, 2017 22:36:46 GMT
^ That but also not that. I always hated arguing the "is it true?" or not becuase like you say, it can be either. It's completely up to whatever fate would end up being the case which is almost random and the player is disarmed to be able to tell whether it's a definite outcome or not. That's why the ending sucked, however. Just throw in a blanket statement about some topic we've barely dissected over the course of the story and call it a day. Wow, what a great ending huh? This is why many others (I can't say "most" or "all" or people will persecute me, I've found out ) wanted a complete rewrite and personally I wanted an iteration of the ending where Shepard ARGUES with the boy so we're actively addressing the true problems the thesis brought up which is that Shepard and his galaxy are in no position to prove or disprove the Catalyst because his solution is too absolute. At the very least, regardless of whether I had to pick any color I just wanted the writing to resound the proper themes here, which is that Shepard is the hero and the symbol of hope for everyone so he should be frustrated with the idea of determinism regarding the thesis about Synthetics and Organics, and he should argue why it's unfair. All he does is briefly mention how we're organics and The Catalyst is reducing us to something less by taking away our freedom but that's not really dissecting the issue. I wanted him to argue why the assumption is wrong when we potentially save the Quarians and Geth and why there should be hope for a future without Synthesis where organics and synthetics coexist. That way the player's narrative would pay off. EDI's coming of humanity would pay off or not and the Rannoch arc would pay off or not. Finally The Catalyst would define "organic chaos" as not just "orgnaics vs synthetics" but also "organic overgrowth" pointing at the Krogan. Have Wreav and cure the Genophage and Shepard's counter-arguments about the peaceful potential in organics would reflect poorly on himself. Instead of a punctuated scene where Shepard doesn't shine and it's all Starchild's show it would be more like a judgement of Shepard as a hero and of the player, where a heroic outcome where there's an outlook of peace in the galaxy would result in the Catalyst unlocking a Destroy option that only kills all Reapers or he simply lets go of their control. A renegade-leaning outcome where you don't persuade him that Organics are good you can still tell him that organics have worth otherwise and he'll unlock Control and if EMS is high also Synthesis where the union of organic lifeforms is forced. Either way Synthesis would be the 100% outcome in terms of doing everything but a Paragon ending would result in real freedom on our terms and trust in our Synthetic friends, the Geth, EDI and organic partners if Wrex leads the Krogan. A renegade ending would result in control and dominance and arrogance or enslavement. It would actually feel like a more Mass Effect ending in the vibe of ME1 again. 1. we have been dealing with this issue from ME1. 2.ME is about trying to stop a race of ancient mind controlling machines from destroy all intelligent life in the galaxy. It was organics vs machines from the start. 3. the discussion did develop over time. With Legion and it's explanation on how synthetics work. And Edi learning morality 4.And Shepard does shut down the catalyst argument with one statement. "the defining characteristic of organic life is that we think for our selves, make our own choices. You take that away and we might as well be machines just like you." That one statement shut's down all the catalyst logic. If you are unset that the catalyst logic is wrong, then you missing the point that it's supposed to be wrong. The Reapers are basically Synthesis--organic minds (kinda) in synthetic bodies. IMO, the theme of ME1 and 2 is uniting different groups and viewpoints to a common goal to the benefit of all.
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Post by Seera1024 on Apr 15, 2017 22:43:08 GMT
Yes, but the reason isn't right. The reapers aren't wrong because they haven't been to Andromeda. There's a number of plausible explanations that would still end up with the reapers being right but not ending up in Andromeda. There are a number of organic species that have gone extinct in the history of the universe that never created synthetics - the species in the Andromeda galaxy that we know of may just be some more advanced examples. And we don't know enough about how they developed to say if it was due to organics vs synthetics or not. The reapers are treating a theory as a law and seeding the developing species to develop along the same paths as the previous ones so they create a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts. If the reapers had gone to the Andromeda galaxy, the species that were advanced would have been reaped. Because to the reapers all organics eventually create synthetics that will rebel and the ensuing war will cause chaos. And therefore the reapers must step in to purge the advanced species in order to preserve order in the universe. Of course we wouldn't be in this situation if the writers of the MET had come up with a better ending. We're in this predicament due to weak ending. That's the real reason the reapers are wrong - because they were given a poor reason to begin with. I covered this viewpoint on page.... 2 or 3...I forget which. It's irrelevant that the Reapers never went to Andromeda. The fact that Andromeda exists WITHOUT Reapers, WITH intelligent organic life, proves that they were full of BS at the end. No it doesn't. Neither the Reapers nor the Catalyst said that organics and synthetics would rage war on each other within X years of organic life developing. Just that organics eventually create synthetics that eventually turn on their creators. They gave no time frame on their claim. We also don't know enough about the pre-Angaran time to say if they had or had not followed in similar patterns to the Milky Way with regards to organics and synthetics. Who knows the race before the Jardaan may have wiped themselves out with a war against synthetics - gone too low in numbers to sustain themselves. Or maybe that's what happened to the Jardaan.
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Post by dreman999 on Apr 15, 2017 23:05:11 GMT
1. we have been dealing with this issue from ME1. 2.ME is about trying to stop a race of ancient mind controlling machines from destroy all intelligent life in the galaxy. It was organics vs machines from the start. 3. the discussion did develop over time. With Legion and it's explanation on how synthetics work. And Edi learning morality 4.And Shepard does shut down the catalyst argument with one statement. "the defining characteristic of organic life is that we think for our selves, make our own choices. You take that away and we might as well be machines just like you." That one statement shut's down all the catalyst logic. If you are unset that the catalyst logic is wrong, then you missing the point that it's supposed to be wrong. The Reapers are basically Synthesis--organic minds (kinda) in synthetic bodies. IMO, the theme of ME1 and 2 is uniting different groups and viewpoints to a common goal to the benefit of all. It does not matter what their are made of. they are still machines. They just there to do automatic process based on programming. Being partly organic does not change that. And no that is not the theme of me1 and 2. that just one of the ways you can play the game. Don't just look at the paragon view point of the plot. ME generally gives you as much info and resources need to need to do the job but it does not tell you how to use it. You can have a crew of friend and allies or a group of disposable pawns in ME1-2
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nthjester
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Can't beat em? Join em, Trash cans unite!
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May 18, 2017 17:28:15 GMT
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nthjester
Can't beat em? Join em, Trash cans unite!
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nthjester
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Post by nthjester on Apr 16, 2017 4:39:19 GMT
So your whole point is that the reapers were wrong about synths? Duh. Uhhhhmmmm yes? See the name of the topic and the first post? *scratches head* The whole point of the series is that they are wrong...and not because of andromeda.
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