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Post by alanc9 on Apr 26, 2017 4:31:54 GMT
Pretty much. If cheap crappy exploration doesn't work well, the answer isn't necessarily spending more on exploration, particularly when exploration had nothing to do with Shepard's missions.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: correctamundo1
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Post by correctamundo on Apr 26, 2017 7:58:24 GMT
Yeah, it is a paradox. Personally I very much like ME2 but would have preferred if they had tried expanding on ME1 instead of forcing the game into full corridor mode. Industry was going through a decline at that time. BioWare had a tight budget. Something had to give, and the MAKO was the best cut to get the game out on time and polished. Unlike the unfocused unfinished mess that Andromeda turned up to be. Still Shep has no brows or lashes in the prologue, gets stuck beside Joker now and then, goes skywalking etc. I guess the word polish just have different meanings then.
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Post by Terminator Force on Apr 26, 2017 12:29:22 GMT
Industry was going through a decline at that time. BioWare had a tight budget. Something had to give, and the MAKO was the best cut to get the game out on time and polished. Unlike the unfocused unfinished mess that Andromeda turned up to be. Still Shep has no brows or lashes in the prologue, gets stuck beside Joker now and then, goes skywalking etc. I guess the word polish just have differrent meanings then. Well how about this meaning. Next to Andromeda, Mass Effect one is tier 1 polish.
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Post by degs29 on May 11, 2017 12:01:19 GMT
Fallout 4 was a huge letdown for me; I spent only 20 hours playing it versus over 50-60 for Fallout 3 and over 100 for New Vegas. Likewise, Skyrim was my least played Elder Scrolls, chocking in at 80 hours, versus 150 for Oblivion and 200 for Morrowind. That all could be because as I've grown older I focus more and more on a good narrative in games, and neither Fallout nor Elder Scrolls really pull this off. When CDPR announced it was going open-world with 3, I was horrified. But they pulled it off. When Bioware announced Andromeda was going open-world, I was worried...and rightly so. I think the game suffers significantly from its scale. Honestly, I think its scale is the main problem with an otherwise great game. They focused on the wrong areas. Andromeda is at its best when you bypass the 40 hours of filler material. But gamers aren't programmed to bypass content. And so the game loses all momentum. This is an honest question, 'cause I see the same concept floated around here and there. Did it really take 40 hours to do the filler? If so, how? My first ME:A run was a 75 hours 90% completion, and I swear I only put maybe 10 hours into the "tasks." I'm sure if I'd gone completely crazy-completionist, it would have taken maybe another 10 or so hours to get 100%, so maybe 20 hours out of a 90-ish hour playthrough? That seems about right for "filler" that's completely optional. I'm not arguing if you think the filler is boring or not, I'm just trying to figure out why people think it's such a "CHORE." I'm not only referring to the "Tasks". Many of the other side-missions also boiled down to fetch-quests. For example, tracking a signal across multiple planets, where basically you spent 95% of the time in travel, with very little, if any, narrative pay-off. I also finished the game in 75 hours with I think 94% completion. I think the story and momentum could have benefited immensely from trimming the fat.
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Post by Cassandra on May 11, 2017 16:04:41 GMT
"But to return to the question of reflecting player actions, Mass Effect Andromeda isn’t at successful at disguising the overall hollowness of player choices and branching in-game. There are fewer decisions that feel meaningful immediately and especially in the longterm, and again, this feels like an accessibility compromise – focus groups don’t like fail states, and having a party member leave the group in Dragon Age Inquisition (or even die, as in earlier BioWare games) because of your actions can be interpreted as failure rather than part and parcel of forging your own unique story. Mass Effect Andromeda’s reduction of consequences to angry confrontations next time you wander onto your ship undercuts the illusion of meaningful choice BioWare has been so good at it in the past."
You know, this part stands out. For all its faults, Mass Effect 3 did a fairly remarkable job selling you on a galactic wide invasion, where saving everyone was impossible. Even small backstory stories like the teenage girl asking the Turian when her parents were coming and him being unable to break the news felt crushing because you knew. Subtle moments like that are missing from Andromeda, and often times "renegade" Ryder is written like the writers don't want to offend anyone whereas Shepard just didn't care. The latter is far more relatable. Yes, some of the dialogue was comically silly in just how evil you could be, but kind of writing has heart. The writers are having fun with Bond one liners (Mass Effect 2 LOVED those) and it worked.
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Post by Sah291 on May 11, 2017 17:30:21 GMT
I actually thought MEA was a good step in the right direction getting back to BioWare's heart. Ryder is a relatable protagonist, with a more personal story. The companions are all relatable and have their own side quests and story potential. Some of the planet specific arcs were pretty good (stuff involving Jaal and the Angara, the Kadara arc, Drac and the Krogan, etc). Set against a Bioware style ancient mystery/race that you uncover over the course of game. The formula is pretty textbook. Some of it reminded me of KOTOR, and ME1, in a good way.
But again, as in DAI, much of this seems a bit lost in the huge amount of exploration and open world style elements (exploring the map, etc). ME1 had exploration too, but I never remember feeling like it distracted away from the storytelling at all. In addition, ME2 had sacrificed some of the classic RPG elements for a more action based and cinematic experience, and while I thought it worked well, many people complained. So I can see where Bioware might have thought fans wanted them to back off that style, for more exploration, more freedom, etc. The problem is they are sacrificing SP customization and modding for multi player, where they obviously want to keep things very streamlined and balanced, and prevent mods/cheats, etc.
The obvious solution wound be to just go make a real fully featured online/Multi-player game--which I suppose they are doing with their next IP.
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Post by Heimdall on May 11, 2017 17:34:27 GMT
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Post by projectpatdc on May 11, 2017 17:38:07 GMT
Fallout 4 and Skyrim are both my favorite Bethesda games. (I think Fallout 4 was perfect but I don't understand its criticism. I also have the some pretty awesome, detailed settlements just on the ps4)
That being said, MEA is sooooooo much better than ME3 in almost every aspect. I would have to disagree that it has lost its heart when did things better...mostly
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Post by projectpatdc on May 11, 2017 17:40:47 GMT
"Mass Effect Andromeda and to a lesser extent Dragon Age Inquisition have you suffering through dry collections with little story content, or fighting through dozens of identical encounters." I don't disagree with this, but it's funny how they set this up as a contrast to Skyrim and FO4. You could plug those two games into this sentence and it would be just as true. How many times did I enter essentially the same cave, bandit fortress, or ruin to fight through some generic enemies on a Radiant quest with no compelling story attached? I don't know, because I lost count. After a while I just started running through those at a sprint, shooting fireballs in front of me so I could clear them off the map as quickly as possible. Bethesda games have been full of bugs and dull writing for years, the only difference is that people expect something different from BioWare. When you emulate a mediocre game, you get a mediocre game. Hopefully BioWare realizes that eventually. How does the combat encounters in ME2 and ME3 not fit into this? I think its more prevalent in MEA because MEA is a bigger game. I do wish there were more mini bosses throughout the worlds though to shake things up. We need more mechs. I would like to be driving through elaadin to have a drop ship ambush me with 3 or 4 mechs.
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Post by abaris on May 11, 2017 18:55:42 GMT
I don't need shooter style MP at all. I do need an interesting world for the story and characters to exist in. Amen to that, but it will be a cold day in hell before EA is dropping MP with all it's microtransactions. Personally I didn't touch it in ME3, DAI and won't touch it here. But there's also positive news, since you no longer have to play the MP missions to get the points and rewards. The option to outsource them to strike teams is certainly something I can live with. As for the original article. Using Skyrim or FO4 as comparisons isn't fair and misses the mark by a lightyear. Both are sandboxes with rudimentary and absurd stories that only live because of being extensively modded. I like both of them, but I play both of them for entirely different reasons than the Bioware games.
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Post by Jacket on May 11, 2017 19:14:59 GMT
If anything is making BW loose its "heart" it is all the focus being put onto MP and the shooter style combat. I don't need super duper shooter mechanics to have a great RPG. I don't need shooter style MP at all. Nah madam, it's because most of the original devs left lol and it shows in this game.
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Post by decafhigh on May 11, 2017 20:42:08 GMT
If anything is making BW loose its "heart" it is all the focus being put onto MP and the shooter style combat. I don't need super duper shooter mechanics to have a great RPG. I don't need shooter style MP at all. Nah madam, it's because most of the original devs left lol and it shows in this game. Well yeah, there is that too.
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Post by caridounette on May 11, 2017 20:45:10 GMT
I actually thought MEA was a good step in the right direction getting back to BioWare's heart. Ryder is a relatable protagonist, with a more personal story. The companions are all relatable and have their own side quests and story potential. Some of the planet specific arcs were pretty good (stuff involving Jaal and the Angara, the Kadara arc, Drac and the Krogan, etc). Set against a Bioware style ancient mystery/race that you uncover over the course of game. The formula is pretty textbook. Some of it reminded me of KOTOR, and ME1, in a good way. But again, as in DAI, much of this seems a bit lost in the huge amount of exploration and open world style elements (exploring the map, etc). ME1 had exploration too, but I never remember feeling like it distracted away from the storytelling at all. In addition, ME2 had sacrificed some of the classic RPG elements for a more action based and cinematic experience, and while I thought it worked well, many people complained. So I can see where Bioware might have thought fans wanted them to back off that style, for more exploration, more freedom, etc. The problem is they are sacrificing SP customization and modding for multi player, where they obviously want to keep things very streamlined and balanced, and prevent mods/cheats, etc. The obvious solution wound be to just go make a real fully featured online/Multi-player game--which I suppose they are doing with their next IP. I pretty much agree with your points on ME1 and ME2 Saddly, it seems the good steps taken in MEA are not only overshadowed by the triology (nostalgia, to be expected) but by other aspects of the game itself. Sure you can explore more, but there arent more things to do. You get to be something else than a soldier, but you will exclusively shoot your way through. You get a more relatable character, but less story to shape him/her. You get unique flavored romances and friendships, but the game is so long they actually feel more lacking. Maybe a change of format to coop-multiplayer is the only way to reconcile the multiple goals the franchise now has to reach. Im not playing Bioware for the multiplayer, but ill wait for the next IP to see. But I cant help thinking what could have been MEA if it had been designed from the ground up to be what it wanted to be : interesting exploration stories, interesting gameplay mechanisms for playing an explorer-not-a-soldier, different ways to shape up the world around you...
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Post by abaris on May 11, 2017 20:46:31 GMT
Nah madam, it's because most of the original devs left lol and it shows in this game. Yeah, well, they also outsourced it to Montreal. A branch that only did supportive work before.
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theflyingzamboni
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Post by theflyingzamboni on May 11, 2017 20:58:49 GMT
"Mass Effect Andromeda and to a lesser extent Dragon Age Inquisition have you suffering through dry collections with little story content, or fighting through dozens of identical encounters." I don't disagree with this, but it's funny how they set this up as a contrast to Skyrim and FO4. You could plug those two games into this sentence and it would be just as true. How many times did I enter essentially the same cave, bandit fortress, or ruin to fight through some generic enemies on a Radiant quest with no compelling story attached? I don't know, because I lost count. After a while I just started running through those at a sprint, shooting fireballs in front of me so I could clear them off the map as quickly as possible. Bethesda games have been full of bugs and dull writing for years, the only difference is that people expect something different from BioWare. When you emulate a mediocre game, you get a mediocre game. Hopefully BioWare realizes that eventually. How does the combat encounters in ME2 and ME3 not fit into this? I think its more prevalent in MEA because MEA is a bigger game. I do wish there were more mini bosses throughout the worlds though to shake things up. We need more mechs. I would like to be driving through elaadin to have a drop ship ambush me with 3 or 4 mechs. A couple of ways. You are right about the 'bigger game' angle. Open world games, for better or worse, pad out their areas and runtimes with random or placed encounters with little or no attached story content (though games like MEA will grace them with a designation like 'tasks'). Since the areas are bigger, these types of encounters make up a larger proportion of (completionist) game time. Much less of ME2's and ME3's content fits into this category, since most of the things you do in an area have some small story attached (though ME3's overheard fetch quests stray into 'task' territory). Since they're smaller, more linear games, they only include spaces when they're telling a story there, and since spaces are small, they don't fill them up with so much cookie cutter content. The second way they don't fit into the same mold is because all encounters are hand-crafted. The devs design each room, corridor, etc. to have a terrain that changes how the battles play out. Consider fighting on one of ME3's more open multiplayer map missions vs. fighting down a corridor on the Citadel, or the floating platforms on the Collector ship vs. the tower bridge in Thane's loyalty quest. The terrain creates more differentiation between encounters. In open area maps, devs can't focus all that attention on terrain for each encounter, especially when many encounters are random anyway. Makes the encounters more same-y then designed encounters. Plus, having a specific objective when fighting (e.g. 'destroy the geth trying to kill Tali') changes the flavor of an encounter, so it stands out more than some monster you just stumbled across. Anyway, that's my two cents on how ME2 and ME3 don't fit that mold, adjusted for inflation.
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Sorry, my face is tired from dealing with... everything.
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Post by theflyingzamboni on May 11, 2017 21:07:37 GMT
If anything is making BW loose its "heart" it is all the focus being put onto MP and the shooter style combat. I don't need super duper shooter mechanics to have a great RPG. I don't need shooter style MP at all. I do need an interesting world for the story and characters to exist in. The annoying part is, having great shooter mechanics shouldn't be mutually exclusive with great story and characters. It's not like the writer's are taking time out to work on combat, and they get huge word budgets in these games.
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Post by Reorte on May 11, 2017 21:08:16 GMT
Saddly, it seems the good steps taken in MEA are not only overshadowed by the triology (nostalgia, to be expected) but by other aspects of the game itself. Sure you can explore more, but there arent more things to do. You get to be something else than a soldier, but you will exclusively shoot your way through. You get a more relatable character, but less story to shape him/her. You get unique flavored romances and friendships, but the game is so long they actually feel more lacking. Interesting point about "aren't more things to do." I think that's really the crux of the game's problems, much more so than things like wonky animations. I like the length though, it just needs fleshing out, although fleshing it out with more quality content to that length is obviously an expensive business. The story is supposed to take some time (not sure how much, but I'm guessing in the months at least), and for once it feels like it. Maybe they wanted padding, maybe they wanted the player to have more of a feeling of wanting to live in the universe. It's probably the first ME game where I feel a player house would make sense at any rate, because of that.
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Post by caridounette on May 11, 2017 21:37:10 GMT
Saddly, it seems the good steps taken in MEA are not only overshadowed by the triology (nostalgia, to be expected) but by other aspects of the game itself. Sure you can explore more, but there arent more things to do. You get to be something else than a soldier, but you will exclusively shoot your way through. You get a more relatable character, but less story to shape him/her. You get unique flavored romances and friendships, but the game is so long they actually feel more lacking. Interesting point about "aren't more things to do." I think that's really the crux of the game's problems, much more so than things like wonky animations. I like the length though, it just needs fleshing out, although fleshing it out with more quality content to that length is obviously an expensive business. The story is supposed to take some time (not sure how much, but I'm guessing in the months at least), and for once it feels like it. Maybe they wanted padding, maybe they wanted the player to have more of a feeling of wanting to live in the universe. It's probably the first ME game where I feel a player house would make sense at any rate, because of that. Yes, I feel they definitly had a bigger scope of what you were to do in the universe. But when it comes to implementation, they didnt really have what it takes. So things linked to exploration and development of the world, like the AVP, are invisible and turned into currency/upgrade, but you have hours of killing bad guys falling from transports everywhere you go around the cluster. Its like they didnt have the tools to tell the story they wanted to. Im not opposed to playing a shooter per say, but make me a soldier. If im someone else, then give me some other focus to interact with the world. Yes a house even.
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Post by Jacket on May 11, 2017 21:42:43 GMT
Nah madam, it's because most of the original devs left lol and it shows in this game. Well yeah, there is that too. I miss Mass Effect 2 now, everything in that game was perfect.
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Post by abaris on May 11, 2017 22:12:05 GMT
I also finished the game in 75 hours with I think 94% completion. I think the story and momentum could have benefited immensely from trimming the fat. Then the game would have been over within 12, 20 hours tops. Not saying that fetch quests are something beautiful and memorable, but they're in every game these days. Go there, kill a few dudes, fetch, turn in, repeat. Bethesda calls them radiants and they're even more tiresome in FO4. My major gripe is, that Bioware seems to have lost it's skillset of creating memorable characters. None of the Andromeda folks interested me as much as the ones of any other Bioware game. When the game first came out, there was a lot of talk of the characters spilling their beans to soon to a total stranger. And yes, I largely agree. There's noone enigmatic like Solas or the Bull. There also aren't unique characters like the first Normandy crew - apart from Kaidan - who never really interested me, to tell the truth. You also are able to recruit all of the Tempest crew too soon. And they stay rather bland until you come to their loyalty missions where they start to develop a bit of character, but in my opinion not on the same level as in previous games.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 1:28:42 GMT
Bioware lost their freedom when they sold the business. In a sense, losing their heart seems to me to have been just a matter of time.
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Post by nastrodamus on May 12, 2017 3:06:06 GMT
Bioware hasn't lost anything. They've been forced to do things that they've never specialized in and have been forced to prioritize nonsense that shouldn't be prioritized in an RPG. It's easiest to make an fps or shooter type game that can be exploited monetarily to it's fullest. EA has known this for a long time and much of the market still shows dumb down shooters sell best. We've kinda reached a point where not supporting a studio or publisher will amount to much. Look at Konami, they shifted gears and are making money hand over fist after getting out of gaming, but not before squeezing every last cent out of the gaming community they could. EA will end up doing the same while laughing it's way across the industry's dead corpse. Pretty sad state of things. Bioware at the end is just a reflection of that sad state. If no one buys this new IP, Bioware gets scraped, the industry shrinks further until nothing.
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