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Post by alanc9 on Jun 18, 2017 15:55:44 GMT
How is ME1's skills system more intricate than ME3's?.
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Post by SofNascimento on Jun 18, 2017 17:39:44 GMT
How is ME1's skills system more intricate than ME3's?. It's not. It's actaully the worse in the series. Both convoluted and shallow.
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Post by jaegerbane on Jun 18, 2017 17:44:48 GMT
Uhm, ME1 has more enemy variety then MEA. No to mention you fight them in more controlled and thought out level designed environments too. And yes, the copy paste bases of ME1 were leagues better too, not to mention nowhere near as numerous and shoved down your throat literally every minute as in MEA. Within 70 hours I've also fought all enemies in ME1 while in MEA all I remember fighting is basically two robots and two kettle enemies for 70 freaking hours. For anyone who thinks gameplay is better in MEA then ME1, they've only played these games like casually once or twice. For everybody else, give it some more time. It's no good simply insisting black is white and accusing anyone disagreeing of being a casual, dude. There were less enemy types in ME1, the 'faction' system was far more primitive, and the bases and mines were copy-paste jobs regardless of world, opponent or quest. While it's fine if you honestly preferred that, trying to argue that they were actually better is just going off into fantasy land. I've no idea what you're going on about when you mention the locations were 'well thought out' compared to MEA. The main quest areas were good but the rest of the game was a choice between one of a few enclosure layouts in a desert. The weird thing is here is that you're actually focusing on the areas ME1 did badly. ME1's skill system was a lot more sensible and modular than MEA's, and the way combat powers are tied to the gun in question made far more sense then the way they were implemented in all further games in the series. But you don't talk about them, you just try to claim that the game with the fewest guns, enemies and level layouts somehow had the most variety, then make some silly assumptions about how many times anyone disagreeing with you must have played it.
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Post by decafhigh on Jun 18, 2017 17:48:35 GMT
Uhm, ME1 has more enemy variety then MEA. No to mention you fight them in more controlled and thought out level designed environments too. And yes, the copy paste bases of ME1 were leagues better too, not to mention nowhere near as numerous and shoved down your throat literally every minute as in MEA. Within 70 hours I've also fought all enemies in ME1 while in MEA all I remember fighting is basically two robots and two kettle enemies for 70 freaking hours. For anyone who thinks gameplay is better in MEA then ME1, they've only played these games like casually once or twice. For everybody else, give it some more time. It's no good simply insisting black is white and accusing anyone disagreeing of being a casual, dude. There were less enemy types in ME1, the 'faction' system was far more primitive, and the bases and mines were copy-paste jobs regardless of world, opponent or quest. While it's fine if you honestly preferred that, trying to argue that they were actually better is just going off into fantasy land. I've no idea what you're going on about when you mention the locations were 'well thought out' compared to MEA. The main quest areas were good but the rest of the game was a choice between one of a few enclosure layouts in a desert.Is that really all that different from MEA?
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Post by griffith82 on Jun 18, 2017 17:49:06 GMT
How is ME1's skills system more intricate than ME3's?. It's not. It's actaully the worse in the series. Both convoluted and shallow. To be fair it was their first time doing a cover shooting rpg. Most of the others had the d20 system.
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Post by jaegerbane on Jun 18, 2017 17:51:18 GMT
It's no good simply insisting black is white and accusing anyone disagreeing of being a casual, dude. There were less enemy types in ME1, the 'faction' system was far more primitive, and the bases and mines were copy-paste jobs regardless of world, opponent or quest. While it's fine if you honestly preferred that, trying to argue that they were actually better is just going off into fantasy land. I've no idea what you're going on about when you mention the locations were 'well thought out' compared to MEA. The main quest areas were good but the rest of the game was a choice between one of a few enclosure layouts in a desert.Is that really all that different from MEA? Not really. Aside from the areas being significantly larger, the point I was making is that if that kind of thing annoyed him, he should have hated ME1 far more than MEA as it did all of this with far less options or variety.
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Post by decafhigh on Jun 18, 2017 17:57:05 GMT
Is that really all that different from MEA? Not really. Aside from the areas being significantly larger, the point I was making is that if that kind of thing annoyed him, he should have hated ME1 far more than MEA as it did all of this with far less options or variety. Alright. I find them to be about the same. They both recycle the same handful of enemies and structures over and over. I don't see hating one "far more" than the other though. MEA just puts more meaningless land to traverse between them.
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Post by jaegerbane on Jun 18, 2017 18:02:14 GMT
Not really. Aside from the areas being significantly larger, the point I was making is that if that kind of thing annoyed him, he should have hated ME1 far more than MEA as it did all of this with far less options or variety. Alright. I find them to be about the same. They both recycle the same handful of enemies and structures over and over. I don't see hating one "far more" than the other though. MEA just puts more meaningless land to traverse between them. Right. But you're playing them with a smaller set of weapons, a smaller set of skills, with a combat system that doesn't allow you to jump or move as fast, against fewer enemies. As I say, I don't begrudge anyone preferring the overall ME1 package (I'm not far off that myself), but making an argument that ME1 did all of this better than MEA when it was lesser in every area comes across as weird. It crosses the line into silly when it's backed up with trash talking along the lines of 'I played a million hours, I know what I'm talking about, if you disagree with me you must have only played it once'.
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Post by bigbad on Jun 18, 2017 18:02:27 GMT
I don't know which game actually has less enemy variety, but when I played through MEA, it definitely felt like enemy variety was severely lacking. However, part of that could simply be that I didn't enjoy the design or mechanics of most of the MEA enemies, unlike, say, ME3.
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Post by jclosed on Jun 18, 2017 18:02:33 GMT
It's no good simply insisting black is white and accusing anyone disagreeing of being a casual, dude. There were less enemy types in ME1, the 'faction' system was far more primitive, and the bases and mines were copy-paste jobs regardless of world, opponent or quest. While it's fine if you honestly preferred that, trying to argue that they were actually better is just going off into fantasy land. I've no idea what you're going on about when you mention the locations were 'well thought out' compared to MEA. The main quest areas were good but the rest of the game was a choice between one of a few enclosure layouts in a desert.Is that really all that different from MEA? To be honest - Yes. For example - If you had seen one or two (planet based) underground bases, you probably have seen the layout of the majority of them. ME:A has a lot more variation. Of course you will see some Kett bases that are almost the same, but still there is a lot more variation. And while the vaults have a lot of similarity, they also have a lot of variation. No two vaults are the same. That cannot be said about the bases in ME1. Most of them where carbon-copy's from each other.
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Post by SofNascimento on Jun 18, 2017 18:02:35 GMT
It's not. It's actaully the worse in the series. Both convoluted and shallow. To be fair it was their first time doing a cover shooting rpg. Most of the others had the d20 system. And I think that's part of the answer why ME1 got away with many of its flaws. It was the first time for a lot of things. ME1 development wasn't easy, as we can easily see by how different some of the early gameplay looked. It's only expected that a developer not might get it right the first time. We see it in other franchises as well.
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Post by jaegerbane on Jun 18, 2017 18:06:54 GMT
I don't know which game actually has less enemy variety, but when I played through MEA, it definitely felt like enemy variety was severely lacking. However, part of that could simply be that I didn't enjoy the design or mechanics of most of the MEA enemies, unlike, say, ME3. The closest thing ME1 had to the faction system was the Geth, which had the full breakdown of basic troops, heavies, rushers, casters etc. This model was extended in the subsequent games. Other than that, ME1 had some basic mercs and a three types of Rachni and creepers, plus varren and Threshers. That was it. The later games had at least three distinct factions with a different overarching approaches. MEA didn't have much more variety than ME3 but was leagues ahead of the first two.
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Post by SofNascimento on Jun 18, 2017 18:12:09 GMT
I don't know which game actually has less enemy variety, but when I played through MEA, it definitely felt like enemy variety was severely lacking. However, part of that could simply be that I didn't enjoy the design or mechanics of most of the MEA enemies, unlike, say, ME3. The closest thing ME1 had to the faction system was the Geth, which had the full breakdown of basic troops, heavies, rushers, casters etc. This model was extended in the subsequent games. Other than that, ME1 had some basic mercs and a three types of Rachni and creepers, plus varren and Threshers. That was it. The later games had at least three distinct factions with a different overarching approaches. MEA didn't have much more variety than ME3 but was leagues ahead of the first two. ME2 did a better job with enemies than Andromeda. Enemy variety is more than just the number of different enemies you have in the game. It's about how often you fight them, why you fight them, for how long, where, etc...
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Post by jaegerbane on Jun 18, 2017 18:13:46 GMT
Is that really all that different from MEA? To be honest - Yes. For example - If you had seen one or two (planet based) underground bases, you probably have seen the layout of the majority of them. ME:A has a lot more variation. Of course you will see some Kett bases that are almost the same, but still there is a lot more variation. And while the vaults have a lot of similarity, they also have a lot of variation. No two vaults are the same. That cannot be said about the bases in ME1. Most of them where carbon-copy's from each other. I can kind of see the point that the various Kett/Exile/Remnant bases were mostly just reconfigured layout of the same basic building blocks. I just don't get why someone would argue this is not good enough, but be happy with direct carbon copies where everything was literally the same, even if the base belonged to different species. I mean, it wasn't far off DA2 levels of copying.
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Post by jaegerbane on Jun 18, 2017 18:17:26 GMT
The closest thing ME1 had to the faction system was the Geth, which had the full breakdown of basic troops, heavies, rushers, casters etc. This model was extended in the subsequent games. Other than that, ME1 had some basic mercs and a three types of Rachni and creepers, plus varren and Threshers. That was it. The later games had at least three distinct factions with a different overarching approaches. MEA didn't have much more variety than ME3 but was leagues ahead of the first two. ME2 did a better job with enemies than Andromeda. Enemy variety is more than just the number of different enemies you have in the game. It's about how often you fight them, why you fight them, for how long, where, etc... ME2 had three different factions of mercs that largely did the same thing, a main opposition that you only fought three times in the game, and some wildlife and Geth layouts that were similar to ME1. While they improved upon ME1, you handled virtually every faction the same way as they were all basically guys with guns. You had a few dogs and whatnot but nothing like ME3 introduced. MEA didn't really expand on ME3 all that much (the Kett in particular are pretty much unit-for-unit translations of the Reapers), but that isn't the argument being put forward.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 18, 2017 18:23:07 GMT
ME1 isn't the worst, but it's a bit of a confused mess. If ME1 had better/smoother cover mechanics I think I would prefer its combat to any of the rest of the series. I find the overheating to be more interesting than the ammo mechanics, the more intricate skills system, and far better squad customization and control than any of the others. For me it is really just the cover mechanics that make it feel "clunky". The overheating mechanic is something you can recapture anyway so at least that's a wash. Right now all of my weapons have cooldowns since I had a bunch of vintage heat sinks. But I disagree about the skill system itself. Each skill has bunches of notches to invest points in, but you only increase power but have no option to change the way that power behaves, unlike ME3, for example. But what makes the game's combat clunky for me is the actual gunplay itself. Guns in ME1 are a bit of a joke, especially with that untrained nonsense.
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Post by SofNascimento on Jun 18, 2017 18:24:04 GMT
ME2 did a better job with enemies than Andromeda. Enemy variety is more than just the number of different enemies you have in the game. It's about how often you fight them, why you fight them, for how long, where, etc... ME2 had three different factions of mercs that largely did the same thing, a main opposition that you only fought three times in the game, and some wildlife and Geth layouts that were similar to ME1. While they improved upon ME1, you handled virtually every faction the same way as they were all basically guys with guns. Yes, but it never felt that way. Garrus loyalty mission is a superb mission in part because of this. You fight all the three mecenary groups in that mission. 90% of the enemies are "basically guys with guns", but it feels you're fighting very different groups. Moreoever, you know their leaders, and you end up fighting them. It gives a superb pace to the mission and an context for the fights that make them different from any other in other missions, even though you might be facing the same guys.
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Post by jaegerbane on Jun 18, 2017 18:31:20 GMT
ME2 had three different factions of mercs that largely did the same thing, a main opposition that you only fought three times in the game, and some wildlife and Geth layouts that were similar to ME1. While they improved upon ME1, you handled virtually every faction the same way as they were all basically guys with guns. Yes, but it never felt that way. Garrus loyalty mission is a superb mission in part because of this. You fight all the three mecenary groups in that mission. 90% of the enemies are "basically guys with guns", but it feels you're fighting very different groups. Moreoever, you know their leaders, and you end up fighting them. It gives a superb pace to the mission and an context for the fights that make them different from any other in other missions, even though you might be facing the same guys. That's more to do with how well the recruitment mission was done rather than the variety of enemies in the game (IIRC Garrus' loyalty mission was blue suns + a few bots). Being blunt, you couldn't do ME3's Krogan Scouts mission, or the Ardat-Yakshi sanctuary mission, or Priority: Horizon, with the enemy selection from ME2. If they'd been a little more liberal with the Collectors then the whole thing would have felt a bit more varied, as they were the only faction that felt like they had a significantly different approach. But they didn't. Basing it on 'how it felt' is a bit shaky as that's ultimately different for each person.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 18, 2017 18:35:16 GMT
The closest thing ME1 had to the faction system was the Geth, which had the full breakdown of basic troops, heavies, rushers, casters etc. This model was extended in the subsequent games. Other than that, ME1 had some basic mercs and a three types of Rachni and creepers, plus varren and Threshers. That was it. The later games had at least three distinct factions with a different overarching approaches. MEA didn't have much more variety than ME3 but was leagues ahead of the first two. ME2 did a better job with enemies than Andromeda. Enemy variety is more than just the number of different enemies you have in the game. It's about how often you fight them, why you fight them, for how long, where, etc... ME3 is kinda king when it came to enemy variety. ME2 doesn't really come close.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2017 18:37:42 GMT
I'll take Reaperfied aliens and Kett over Cerberus soldiers any day!
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Post by SofNascimento on Jun 18, 2017 18:37:47 GMT
Yes, but it never felt that way. Garrus loyalty mission is a superb mission in part because of this. You fight all the three mecenary groups in that mission. 90% of the enemies are "basically guys with guns", but it feels you're fighting very different groups. Moreoever, you know their leaders, and you end up fighting them. It gives a superb pace to the mission and an context for the fights that make them different from any other in other missions, even though you might be facing the same guys. That's more to do with how well the recruitment mission was done rather than the variety of enemies in the game That's why I said enemy variety is more than just how many different enemies you have. ME3 had the most variety, but think most of its missions weren't very well crafted. The Phantom, for example, which for me is the best deisgned enemy in the series, doesn't stand out in a single mission in ME3. That's because the correct use of squadmates make the encounters trivial. In MP when that doesn't happen the Phantoms are a joy to fight. But back to the point. Having 10 different enemy types doesn't guarantee gameplay variety. They tend to help, but by themselves matter little.
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Post by jaegerbane on Jun 18, 2017 18:46:32 GMT
That's more to do with how well the recruitment mission was done rather than the variety of enemies in the game That's why I said enemy variety is more than just how many different enemies you have. ME3 had the most variety, but think most of its missions weren't very well crafted. The Phantom, for example, which for me is the best deisgned enemy in the series, doesn't stand out in a single mission in ME3. That's because the correct use of squadmates make the encounters trivial. In MP when that doesn't happen the Phantoms are a joy to fight. But back to the point. Having 10 different enemy types doesn't guarantee gameplay variety. They tend to help, but by themselves matter little. To be honest I don't really understand what you're arguing here - if you're saying that ME2 had the best quest design then... well, at least I could say where you're going with that. If you're saying enemy variety only matters if the quest design is up to snuff then perhaps, but that isn't really what is being discussed. ME3's faction system basically had you fighting raw firepower (Geth), combined arms (Cerberus) or rushers (Reapers), which let the devs do some very clever missions around them. MEA's biggest sin in this regard is that they overemphasised one faction over the other two, so quests felt samey. But either way, they had more than previous entries, which is the opposite of what termie was claiming.
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Post by Terminator Force on Jun 18, 2017 18:56:55 GMT
Uhm, ME1 has more enemy variety then MEA. No to mention you fight them in more controlled and thought out level designed environments too. And yes, the copy paste bases of ME1 were leagues better too, not to mention nowhere near as numerous and shoved down your throat literally every minute as in MEA. Within 70 hours I've also fought all enemies in ME1 while in MEA all I remember fighting is basically two robots and two kettle enemies for 70 freaking hours. For anyone who thinks gameplay is better in MEA then ME1, they've only played these games like casually once or twice. For everybody else, give it some more time. It's no good simply insisting black is white and accusing anyone disagreeing of being a casual, dude. There were less enemy types in ME1, the 'faction' system was far more primitive, and the bases and mines were copy-paste jobs regardless of world, opponent or quest. While it's fine if you honestly preferred that, trying to argue that they were actually better is just going off into fantasy land. I've no idea what you're going on about when you mention the locations were 'well thought out' compared to MEA. The main quest areas were good but the rest of the game was a choice between one of a few enclosure layouts in a desert. The weird thing is here is that you're actually focusing on the areas ME1 did badly. ME1's skill system was a lot more sensible and modular than MEA's, and the way combat powers are tied to the gun in question made far more sense then the way they were implemented in all further games in the series. But you don't talk about them, you just try to claim that the game with the fewest guns, enemies and level layouts somehow had the most variety, then make some silly assumptions about how many times anyone disagreeing with you must have played it. Look, I only fought like 4 enemies types in this game. And MEA is still more lazy copy paste in main mission or side missions. MEA is the most repetitive designed game I've ever played. Also replay value is the best merit of a game's gameplay fun factor. With this in mind, no way will Mass Effect fans play Andromeda more then they've played ME1. Unpossible.
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Post by Terminator Force on Jun 18, 2017 19:02:39 GMT
Is that really all that different from MEA? Not really. Aside from the areas being significantly larger, the point I was making is that if that kind of thing annoyed him, he should have hated ME1 far more than MEA as it did all of this with far less options or variety. Yet ME1 is no where near as annoying as MEA to me. In fact, ME1 got better with each replay and each increase in difficulty. It really was lightning in a bottle for BioWare in how ME1 came together. MEA on the other hand, BioWare finally caught turd in a bottle and I've seen all I can stand at 70 hours. This game is getting traded in. Replay: Denied.
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Aug 27, 2016 13:51:04 GMT
August 2016
sofnascimento
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire
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Post by SofNascimento on Jun 18, 2017 19:05:38 GMT
That's why I said enemy variety is more than just how many different enemies you have. ME3 had the most variety, but think most of its missions weren't very well crafted. The Phantom, for example, which for me is the best deisgned enemy in the series, doesn't stand out in a single mission in ME3. That's because the correct use of squadmates make the encounters trivial. In MP when that doesn't happen the Phantoms are a joy to fight. But back to the point. Having 10 different enemy types doesn't guarantee gameplay variety. They tend to help, but by themselves matter little. To be honest I don't really understand what you're arguing here - if you're saying that ME2 had the best quest design then... well, at least I could say where you're going with that. If you're saying enemy variety only matters if the quest design is up to snuff then perhaps, but that isn't really what is being discussed. You could say that. In short, what I'm saying is that ME2 has the best gameplay, the bes quest system as you put it. Because even if in some individual elements it was surpassed by ME3 and maybe even Andromeda, the sum of all the parts in ME2 worked better than in any other game in the franchise. And so, looking only at enemy variety can doesn't lead to any meaningful conclusion.
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