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Post by dreman999 on May 27, 2017 15:11:35 GMT
Hypocrisy from both sides, sure. I doubt the people clutching their pearls over FC5 did so when the religious fanatics were Muslim. I haven't played a video game where Islam is explicit. There might be a few, but I've never seen a character at a mosque reciting passages from the Koran to incite violence. It's always vague Islam--implied in the dialogue: "infidels, western scum," that sort of crap. And I'm not a Trump supporter. As another user mentioned, it's hypocrisy from a group of people on message boards, twitter, and comment sections reveling in the idea of killing a bunch of redneck, white Christian men that's made me make this topic. Again. I applaud Bioware, and Bethesda, for letting us kill all sorts of people without discrimination. It sure beats having to kill bald British man 2 in Uncharted, or what looks to be now Bearded Redneck 4 in FC5. The other farcry game let you fight multicolor pirates, aND brown west asians.
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Post by setokaiba on May 27, 2017 15:18:45 GMT
I don't play Far Cry or know the politics of the developers, but when I saw the trailer I thought it was just reflecting issues facing the real world today. Obviously the imagery isn't correct, is it because it simply isn't PC to show the truth and thus they are hiding the message under a false coat of paint or are they just leftist radicals that always seem to get this kind of thing wrong. I dunno, never was a fan of Far Cry anyway so it doesn't really matter to me but the hypocrisy shown in reactions to it are pretty hilarious. Pretty much how I feel about this.
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Post by Fredward on May 27, 2017 15:27:55 GMT
I don't know what you mean tbh, if you don't have a problem with the depiction of a extremist religious group as violent regardless of their skin colour then we don't have a disagreement (which is not the same thing as "winning" an argument). Unless that comment was wrt only Muslim extremists. Obviously I don't have a problem with it, that isn't what I wrote. I have no love for religious fundamentalists, no matter which religion they belong to.
And that wasn't what I wrote in my post. But if you are not interested in proper discussion... *shrug*
Then we literally do not have a disagreement. I don't have a problem games depicting you shooting analogue Muslims extremists, I don't have a problem when a game shoots analogue culty Christians. It's hypocritical when you don't have a problem when it's Muslims but do when it's Christians. The reverse is also hypocritical. I never expressed a perspective counter to this. I expressed amusement at optimal trigger conditions for rightwingers which is totally on the money if you saw them on Twitter yesterday when FC5 was trending. For example: (lol). Now that would have been hypocritical of me if I expressed distress in how religious extremists Muslims were, are and will probably continue to be presented but I haven't. Unless you're saying that 1) religious violence can't be white 2) it's somehow worse because it's depicted as white then we don't have a disagreement.
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Post by abaris on May 27, 2017 15:37:16 GMT
I think this Awakened Saxon (wonder if this name has something to do with white and proud of it, to put it mildly) has the same problem so many people have with games these days. Not playing them because they might offer some enjoyment, but to see their own set of values represented or their own prejudices.
The same shit MEA had to face at release and still has to face at certain instances. I wonder how all these people would react if the roles were reversed. What about muslims demanding games to change because they're not presented well in their imagination? What about atheists or the LGBT community?
I can only imagine the ensuing shitstorm.
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Post by setokaiba on May 27, 2017 15:41:00 GMT
Aren't the other Far Cry games in some Asian country? I don't get why people are so upset now but wasn't crying about killing people in Bangladesh(or where ever the games are set). I don't care about the skin color or gender of the enemies or Far Cry for that matter. I don't know what they expect from a game set in the USA. Killing Americans in a game set in America should be pretty obvious.
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Post by Vortex13 on May 27, 2017 15:41:29 GMT
Yeah, mark off the myriad check-boxes representing every tiny little niche of humanity, but completely overlook the actual minorities in these science fiction and fantasy titles; namely the non-human elements. Oh look, we can now have a half Spanish, quarter Asian, quarter African, transgender, bisexual character but we totally ignore a setting filled with aliens and fantastical creatures that operate on another level compared to us.
If I wanted to learn about the latest in social/political issues, or what current topic plagues the LGBT community I could turn on the news or load up Twitter. I don't buy into science fiction or high fantasy settings (especially those that make a point of having non-human elements) to just look at the humans and near-humans inhabiting them and focus on their 'daddy issues' or who they find sexually attractive.
For all of their parading around and soap-boxing about inclusiveness and diversity BioWare is rather hypocritical when it comes to their game worlds. Namely how they all operate on the shallow notion that if you are not human; or near enough that you can pass for one in a rubber costume you are either:
1) A mindless/evil monster that we can kill by the truckload with zero remorse for XP/loot
or
2) A comedic stooge that we get to make fun of for having the 'audacity' of being inherently different from us.
Yay we now have more 'inclusiveness' but we make practically zero effort in exploring those things that set the given setting apart from the boring hum-drum of the real world. Sure, special interest characters like Steve Cortez and Samantha Traynor are a great and all, but the fact that just one of said characters got more screen time in a single game than aliens like the Thorian, Rachni, Elcor, and Hanar got in the entire trilogy combined is just sad.
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Post by R1Outcast on May 27, 2017 15:43:05 GMT
It's easy to feel this way when you're essentially a white male. Sure, if you go into detail you're irish...but you're still basically a white male. White males have been protagonists in probably 99%+ games, movies, television shows, books, etc. It's nice when a developer switches things up and makes a female or non-white male protagonist. Being represented is awesome and contributes a lot to self value, especially in younger minds. It's something you may not fully understand since most protagonists have always looked like you, but for a female or a black guy...it's nice to see positive and powerful images of people who look similar to you. Makes you feel like you can do it too. I do agree with you that the game, movie, etc. itself should be good first-and-foremost, but inclusivity and/or diversity are not a bad thing. ...I've never said inclusivity or diversity is a bad thing, but I feel people make too big a deal out of it. When I watch Luther, I don't think "Oh, well, I can't enjoy this because the lead character is a black man.", and I didn't think that I could not play Jade Empire because the characters are based chinese culture and appearances. I don't identify with people on screen because of their colour, or their gender, their sexuality or anything like that. It's the quality of their character, their attributes, their writing and how they're acted. I'm not american, but that hasn't stopped me liking countless films, tv shows and games that feature characters from that country. Games should focus on the story, the characters, and people should stop complaining all the time about not being represented. Not every gender/sexuality/race can be represented in a medium such as this... You're largely missing my point though. As a white male, you have TONS of representation in various forms of media...games, movies, television shows, etc. So chances are, the few shows or games with a black or female protagonist means nothing to you. But for the little black kid, or little girl who's grown up seeing nothing but white male superheros, it's an awesome feeling to see a superhero who looks like you once in a while. Like I said in my post: this will most likely be difficult for you to understand (not meant as an insult) because you haven't spent a lifetime watching movies and playing games where no one looks like you. Not trying to come off combative or anything, just trying to get you to consider a different perspective.
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Post by alanc9 on May 27, 2017 15:43:48 GMT
Wow. That Awakened Saxon thing is hilarious.
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Post by alanc9 on May 27, 2017 15:50:52 GMT
Yay we now have more 'inclusiveness' but we make practically zero effort in exploring those things that set the given setting apart from the boring hum-drum of the real world. Sure, special interest characters like Steve Cortez and Samantha Traynor are a great and all, but the fact that just one of said characters got more screen time in a single game than aliens like the Thorian, Rachni, Elcor, and Hanar got in the entire trilogy combined is just sad. This is really silly. If the gay characters in the trilogy had too much screen time, then the straight characters had too much screen time too.
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Post by dreman999 on May 27, 2017 15:55:45 GMT
Yeah, mark off the myriad check-boxes representing every tiny little niche of humanity, but completely overlook the actual minorities in these science fiction and fantasy titles; namely the non-human elements. Oh look, we can now have a half Spanish, quarter Asian, quarter African, transgender, bisexual character but we totally ignore a setting filled with aliens and fantastical creatures that operate on another level compared to us. If I wanted to learn about the latest in social/political issues, or what current topic plagues the LGBT community I could turn on the news or load up Twitter. I don't buy into science fiction or high fantasy settings (especially those that make a point of having non-human elements) to just look at the humans and near-humans inhabiting them and focus on their 'daddy issues' or who they find sexually attractive. For all of their parading around and soap-boxing about inclusiveness and diversity BioWare is rather hypocritical when it comes to their game worlds. Namely how they all operate on the shallow notion that if you are not human; or near enough that you can pass for one in a rubber costume you are either: 1) A mindless/evil monster that we can kill by the truckload with zero remorse for XP/loot or 2) A comedic stooge that we get to make fun of for having the 'audacity' of being inherently different from us. Yay we now have more 'inclusiveness' but we make practically zero effort in exploring those things that set the given setting apart from the boring hum-drum of the real world. Sure, special interest characters like Steve Cortez and Samantha Traynor are a great and all, but the fact that just one of said characters got more screen time in a single game than aliens like the Thorian, Rachni, Elcor, and Hanar got in the entire trilogy combined is just sad. The issue with the thorian is one that it just thinks as us as tool. Elcor and Hanar is animation and environment.the hanar are water being for goodness sake. And the rachni is more of a culture issue of the milkyway. If your going complain that the aliens are not alien enough not the issue with making them that alien.
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Post by setokaiba on May 27, 2017 15:57:08 GMT
Yay we now have more 'inclusiveness' but we make practically zero effort in exploring those things that set the given setting apart from the boring hum-drum of the real world. Sure, special interest characters like Steve Cortez and Samantha Traynor are a great and all, but the fact that just one of said characters got more screen time in a single game than aliens like the Thorian, Rachni, Elcor, and Hanar got in the entire trilogy combined is just sad. That's a lie. No sane person would spend more than 2 seconds talking to Steve Cortez gay or not.
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Post by zaefkol on May 27, 2017 15:59:46 GMT
Yay we now have more 'inclusiveness' but we make practically zero effort in exploring those things that set the given setting apart from the boring hum-drum of the real world. Sure, special interest characters like Steve Cortez and Samantha Traynor are a great and all, but the fact that just one of said characters got more screen time in a single game than aliens like the Thorian, Rachni, Elcor, and Hanar got in the entire trilogy combined is just sad. I know, right? I was like totally shocked and saddened that members of the crew had more screen time than not members of the crew!
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Post by caterpillar on May 27, 2017 16:03:04 GMT
Yay we now have more 'inclusiveness' but we make practically zero effort in exploring those things that set the given setting apart from the boring hum-drum of the real world. Sure, special interest characters like Steve Cortez and Samantha Traynor are a great and all, but the fact that just one of said characters got more screen time in a single game than aliens like the Thorian, Rachni, Elcor, and Hanar got in the entire trilogy combined is just sad. This is really silly. If the gay characters in the trilogy had too much screen time, then the straight characters had too much screen time too. Sure, fan service characters like Miranda Lawson are a great and all, but the fact that just one of her ass cheeks got more screen time in a single game than aliens like the Thorian, Rachni, Elcor, and Hanar got in the entire trilogy combined is just sad.
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Post by setokaiba on May 27, 2017 16:09:46 GMT
Miranda's butt got more screen time then your crew out of Garrus, Tali and Liara. Her ass is in every cut scene that involves Miranda. Like you it just as much as her face.
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Post by dreman999 on May 27, 2017 16:29:12 GMT
Then we literally do not have a disagreement. I don't have a problem games depicting you shooting analogue Muslims extremists, I don't have a problem when a game shoots analogue culty Christians. It's hypocritical when you don't have a problem when it's Muslims but do when it's Christians. The reverse is also hypocritical. I never expressed a perspective counter to this. I expressed amusement at optimal trigger conditions for rightwingers which is totally on the money if you saw them on Twitter yesterday when FC5 was trending. For example: ... (lol). Now that would have been hypocritical of me if I expressed distress in how religious extremists Muslims were, are and will probably continue to be presented but I haven't. Unless you're saying that 1) religious violence can't be white 2) it's somehow worse because it's depicted as white then we don't have a disagreement. Right. That's not the hypocrisy I pointed out.
I specifically pointed out the mental masturbation among certain creatures over the rumor that in FC5 the player will be able to a black female character and shoot white males, a display that can only be described as racist, in comparison to the usual screeching over depictions of "minorities" in video games, or other "micro aggressions". This is the double standards I was talking about. But I guess you missed those reactions on twitter.
I don't actually care about the skin color of an antagonist in a video game, that's not what my post was about.
dude. The game has not even been played by the media yet and still in alpha....there is no way anyone would know what the player can or can't do in this game. So with the hyperboil.
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Post by Fredward on May 27, 2017 16:39:55 GMT
Then we literally do not have a disagreement. I don't have a problem games depicting you shooting analogue Muslims extremists, I don't have a problem when a game shoots analogue culty Christians. It's hypocritical when you don't have a problem when it's Muslims but do when it's Christians. The reverse is also hypocritical. I never expressed a perspective counter to this. I expressed amusement at optimal trigger conditions for rightwingers which is totally on the money if you saw them on Twitter yesterday when FC5 was trending. For example: ... (lol). Now that would have been hypocritical of me if I expressed distress in how religious extremists Muslims were, are and will probably continue to be presented but I haven't. Unless you're saying that 1) religious violence can't be white 2) it's somehow worse because it's depicted as white then we don't have a disagreement. Right. That's not the hypocrisy I pointed out.
I specifically pointed out the mental masturbation among certain creatures over the rumor that in FC5 the player will be able to a black female character and shoot white males, a display that can only be described as racist, in comparison to the usual screeching over depictions of "minorities" in video games, or other "micro aggressions". This is the double standards I was talking about. But I guess you missed those reactions on twitter.
I don't actually care about the skin color of an antagonist in a video game, that's not what my post was about.
That vein of hypocrisy was indeed there too.
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Post by Vortex13 on May 27, 2017 17:06:37 GMT
Yay we now have more 'inclusiveness' but we make practically zero effort in exploring those things that set the given setting apart from the boring hum-drum of the real world. Sure, special interest characters like Steve Cortez and Samantha Traynor are a great and all, but the fact that just one of said characters got more screen time in a single game than aliens like the Thorian, Rachni, Elcor, and Hanar got in the entire trilogy combined is just sad. This is really silly. If the gay characters in the trilogy had too much screen time, then the straight characters had too much screen time too. They did. Humans in general had way too much screen time, and too much focus placed on how 'special' we are regardless of what said human's skin color, gender or sexual orientation was. We're one tiny species among dozens in the milky way alone, and yet we're the only ones with minute detail paid to how our various 'sects' are showcased. Everyone is clamoring for that extra notch in the "representation belt", while any 'alien' elements are tossed to the wayside. Now, if the game was initially designed without those elements in it at all that would be one thing, but don't allude to all these non-human concepts and then completely ignore them in favor of more romance options and the like. I could care less if human A likes men, or if human B has 'daddy issues', I want to go talk to that alien over there comprised of nothing but free floating neutrons. Humans, all aspects of us, are boring and vanilla in a universe that the creators have shown to have intrinsically non-human elements. I can go meet a human "minority" just by walking down the street. I can't do that with species of sentient, hive mind insects. Sure, have your human cast be diverse, but don't do it to the extent that you water down a once nuanced setting to the point that it's practically comprised of just us and our boring 'issues'. I would make the argument that the first titles in the Mass Effect and Dragon Age franchises are actually more diverse than the latest entries of their respective series. Yeah, we have more variety in our human characters now, but everything else is swept under the rug and the setting is more bland than ever.
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Post by abaris on May 27, 2017 17:23:15 GMT
What always amazes me in these discussions is that this even is a thing. I don't play any game looking for hidden political or social agendas. I'm always like there's a gay character, fine, I'm not gay, but great to have him. There's a transgendered person, I'm not transgender, but I appreciate the effort. There's a militarist, a patriot, a nationalist, such as in ME2 with the Turian politician, earth supremacists in ME1 or later on human supremacists like Cerberus, great, let us have them.
I also like to experiment with my own characters. Black, white, asian, anything in between, male, female. The only thing that would have me worried would be if any game was to transport exclusivness. Inclusion never disturbed me in any way, shape or form.
Same goes for that twitter bullshit over an American being the villain in Far Cry. Well, guess what, villains also come in all shapes and colors and aren't exclusive to any race, color or nationality.
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Post by derrame on May 27, 2017 18:12:54 GMT
games are not to represent people, it's stupid to expect to be represented in fiction
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Post by dreman999 on May 27, 2017 18:20:38 GMT
dude. The game has not even been played by the media yet and still in alpha....there is no way anyone would know what the player can or can't do in this game. So with the hyperboil. Your response has nothing to do with the post you responded to. I specifically mentioned a *rumor*, and the rather cringy reaction to it on twatter. that only change who this is going to be directed at. point stands
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Post by vonuber on May 27, 2017 18:41:42 GMT
Ah, no-one complains so much about the unfairness of representation or themes in games as a male (usually American) gamer, ironically the most pandered too players in the history of gaming.
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Post by abaris on May 27, 2017 18:45:30 GMT
Ah, no-one complains so much about the unfairness of representation or themes in games as a male (usually American) gamer, ironically the most pandered too players in the history of gaming. Funny, isn't it?
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Post by KaiserShep on May 27, 2017 19:16:25 GMT
I like the part where inclusiveness is suddenly related to the representation of fictional races. When chimpanzees and dolphins start logging into this site to add their .02 on the representation of fellow sentients, then this debate will really get interesting.
Though given some of the input I've read around the internet, they may already be here.
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Post by caterpillar on May 27, 2017 19:23:43 GMT
I like the part where inclusiveness is suddenly related to the representation of fictional races. When chimpanzees and dolphins start logging into this site to add their .02 on the representation of fellow sentients, then this debate will really get interesting. Though given some of the input I've read around the internet, they may already be here. So long, and thanks for all the fish.
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Post by kheld on May 27, 2017 20:00:35 GMT
...I've never said inclusivity or diversity is a bad thing, but I feel people make too big a deal out of it. When I watch Luther, I don't think "Oh, well, I can't enjoy this because the lead character is a black man.", and I didn't think that I could not play Jade Empire because the characters are based chinese culture and appearances. I don't identify with people on screen because of their colour, or their gender, their sexuality or anything like that. It's the quality of their character, their attributes, their writing and how they're acted. I'm not american, but that hasn't stopped me liking countless films, tv shows and games that feature characters from that country. Games should focus on the story, the characters, and people should stop complaining all the time about not being represented. Not every gender/sexuality/race can be represented in a medium such as this... You're largely missing my point though. As a white male, you have TONS of representation in various forms of media...games, movies, television shows, etc. So chances are, the few shows or games with a black or female protagonist means nothing to you. But for the little black kid, or little girl who's grown up seeing nothing but white male superheros, it's an awesome feeling to see a superhero who looks like you once in a while. Like I said in my post: this will most likely be difficult for you to understand (not meant as an insult) because you haven't spent a lifetime watching movies and playing games where no one looks like you. Not trying to come off combative or anything, just trying to get you to consider a different perspective. Have people ever complained about Bollywood not being inclusive because their films feature mainly Indian actor's? Thought not. First world counties which produce content like pc games have majority white populations, and the customer base for content like pc games is mostly male. That is why white males are disproportionately cast as the lead characters. It's like complaining that asari tv features too many female Asari ...
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