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Post by Psychevore on May 27, 2017 22:59:16 GMT
That's not the proper question to ask here. The questions you should ask are if I agree with them and why I agree with them even though I am a straight, white male. But I doubt you'd understand, as you seem to judge social justice by it's most absurd proponents. Why should I care why you follow a kooky ideology? I'm all for equality mind you, but the identity politics brigade has thrown that out of the airlock awhile back. Do you even think before you type? You declare to be all before equality, then say the direct opposite in the same damn sentence. Brilliant.
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Post by Psychevore on May 27, 2017 23:00:10 GMT
Great way to dodge the point. Again. You're always up your ass about people staying on point, yet you never do yourself. I thought we were talking about the "orange idiot" no? It brought back some good memories. No, we weren't. We were talking about using Twitter as base to judge a group of people. Difficult stuff huh?
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2017 23:03:56 GMT
But I doubt you'd understand, as you seem to judge social justice by it's most absurd proponents. This. Instead of attempting to have a real discussion, a certain party sets up strawmen by bringing in absurd comments from elsewhere on the internet.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2017 23:09:19 GMT
I understand where the OP is coming from. Bioware do seem to 'include' every color/ race/ gender etc.. there are other game devs out there who are doing this aswell but not as in depth as bioware.
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Post by Psychevore on May 27, 2017 23:26:49 GMT
Do you even think before you type? You declare to be all before equality, then say the direct opposite in the same damn sentence. Brilliant. I most certainly didn't say the direct opposite. Your ideology hasn't been about equality for awhile now. It became the ideology of grievance mongering and professional offense taking. Like the difference between, say, the original feminist movement and today's third-wave "intersectional" feminism.
My ideology? What the hell do you pretend to know about my ideology except that I agree with social justice on points? You're fighting an imaginary enemy here.
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Post by Psychevore on May 27, 2017 23:28:37 GMT
This. Instead of attempting to have a real discussion, a certain party sets up strawmen by bringing in absurd comments from elsewhere on the internet. I'm always open for "real discussion". What would you like to discuss? (aside from your nitpicking in regards to what you see as relevant or not relevant of course, I wouldn't call that a "real discussion") No you're not. You're avoiding the points people make and constantly whine about some idiots on twitter. This isn't even about Mass Effect anymore, it's about some shit you read on Twitter.
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Post by Psychevore on May 27, 2017 23:30:47 GMT
My ideology? What the hell do you pretend to know about my ideology except that I agree with social justice on points? You're fighting an imaginary enemy here. Oh, sorry. I kinda got the impression that you were one of the brave knights yourself. Deepest apologies. I even told you to ask me if I agree with them, but you didn't think this was relevant. Genius.
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Post by Psychevore on May 27, 2017 23:33:53 GMT
I even told you to ask me if I agree with them, but you didn't think this was relevent. Genius. You told me to ask *why* you agree with them, important difference, this led me to believe that you do agree. 'The questions you should ask are if I agree with them and why I agree with them even though I am a straight, white male'
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Post by decafhigh on May 27, 2017 23:36:53 GMT
'The questions you should ask are if I agree with them and why I agree with them even though I am a straight, white male' Alright. I'll bite. What is the answer?
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Post by Mihura on May 27, 2017 23:47:17 GMT
I don't think anyone would mind as long as it fits the story. Sloane Kelly is essentially a black female gangster. There was no "political shitstorm" over her death. Sloane Kelly is a single character, and you don't even kill her yourself. Let's stop the pretense, I'm talking about a comparable game to FC5, where the antagonists are a black gang of mostly females, essentially, the reverse of FC5.
I will reiterate: Political shitstorm.
No it is not, one word... Gotham. Edit: Another Bioshock.
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Post by smilesja on May 27, 2017 23:50:06 GMT
Wait what are we talking about?
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Post by alanc9 on May 27, 2017 23:59:54 GMT
Hey, orgasming was your metaphor, not mine. I just used the word the same way you did. You didn't answer my question, and I'm not certain you actually understood it. Did anyone say that they were going to enjoy playing as a black women gunning down white men? I didn't see that here or anyplace else. To answer your question, yeah, people did say that on twatter. Not that I particularly care mind you, it's just fun to point out the more wholesome elements of the SJW crowd. That's why I asked for links. Got any? It's not that I'm accusing you of lying, but you haven't struck me as having any particular interest in facts lately, so I'd like to see the evidence.
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Post by dreman999 on May 28, 2017 0:06:06 GMT
that only change who this is going to be directed at. point stands Bullshit. You don't fight racism by making some types of racism okay. Racism is bad, no matter who the target is. That is precisely the hypocrisy I was talking about. If you are making this comment about this rumor then my comment is for you. What's in fc5 as the enemy has nothing to do with race. they are zealots and fanatics. and they are the ones we see in common america we don't talk much about but know are there. And can't used the race card with this being one of the allied character in this game is a white man who has a whites family who being attacked by these crazy zealots.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 28, 2017 0:11:18 GMT
Wait what are we talking about?
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Post by Psychevore on May 28, 2017 0:17:54 GMT
'The questions you should ask are if I agree with them and why I agree with them even though I am a straight, white male' Alright. I'll bite. What is the answer? I don't agree with those idiots you're talking about on Twitter.
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Post by Mihura on May 28, 2017 0:25:15 GMT
No it is not, one word Gotham. Again, not the same, and hardly exclusively or mostly black enemies, and no female ones either. (same goes for bioshock, if there are black enemies, they are a minority)
Besides, the nontrovercy was triggered on much lower "offenses", such as the "outrageous" option to attack female NPC's in GTA.
Again, all I want to see is the same standards used no matter who the "offended" party is. You don't get rid of racism by developing double standards.
Oh you mean nameless NPCs and Boss Battles? Well The Division, Most Ghost Recon games, lots Resident Evil.
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Post by Vortex13 on May 28, 2017 1:44:19 GMT
They did. Humans in general had way too much screen time, and too much focus placed on how 'special' we are regardless of what said human's skin color, gender or sexual orientation was. We're one tiny species among dozens in the milky way alone, and yet we're the only ones with minute detail paid to how our various 'sects' are showcased. Everyone is clamoring for that extra notch in the "representation belt", while any 'alien' elements are tossed to the wayside. Now, if the game was initially designed without those elements in it at all that would be one thing, but don't allude to all these non-human concepts and then completely ignore them in favor of more romance options and the like. I could care less if human A likes men, or if human B has 'daddy issues', I want to go talk to that alien over there comprised of nothing but free floating neutrons. Humans, all aspects of us, are boring and vanilla in a universe that the creators have shown to have intrinsically non-human elements. I can go meet a human "minority" just by walking down the street. I can't do that with species of sentient, hive mind insects. Sure, have your human cast be diverse, but don't do it to the extent that you water down a once nuanced setting to the point that it's practically comprised of just us and our boring 'issues'. I would make the argument that the first titles in the Mass Effect and Dragon Age franchises are actually more diverse than the latest entries of their respective series. Yeah, we have more variety in our human characters now, but everything else is swept under the rug and the setting is more bland than ever. My issue with your line of argument is that this is not an either-or situation. You can have a diverse and well developed human and humanoid cast for the player to interact with while also spending time allowing the player to explore more alien-looking-aliens and the alien concepts they may bring to the universe. Representation does not detract from that ability. Bad writing choices do. In fact, I would argue that diverse representation actually enhances the player's ability to more fully engage with alien concepts. A well written and diverse cast will allow the player to interact with and respond to a wider range of perspectives on the truly alien when new concepts appear in the game. Edit: Spelling Unfortunately, BioWare's current crop of writers seems to be unable to give us both aspects of narrative story telling. If we're going to have to have an either/or situation, I would prefer that the science fiction setting actually have some science fiction elements to it; aside from space ships and laser guns.
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Post by Mihura on May 28, 2017 2:27:03 GMT
My issue with your line of argument is that this is not an either-or situation. You can have a diverse and well developed human and humanoid cast for the player to interact with while also spending time allowing the player to explore more alien-looking-aliens and the alien concepts they may bring to the universe. Representation does not detract from that ability. Bad writing choices do. In fact, I would argue that diverse representation actually enhances the player's ability to more fully engage with alien concepts. A well written and diverse cast will allow the player to interact with and respond to a wider range of perspectives on the truly alien when new concepts appear in the game. Edit: Spelling Unfortunately, BioWare's current crop of writers seems to be unable to give us both aspects of narrative story telling. If we're going to have to have an either/or situation, I would prefer that the science fiction setting actually have some science fiction elements to it; aside from space ships and laser guns. What do you mean... why would anyone want to hear about astrophysics in a shooter?
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2017 2:51:39 GMT
Unfortunately, BioWare's current crop of writers seems to be unable to give us both aspects of narrative story telling. If we're going to have to have an either/or situation, I would prefer that the science fiction setting actually have some science fiction elements to it; aside from space ships and laser guns. Oh - you mean like intergalactic travel, AI capable of using organic sense mechanisms via a brain implant, gravity wells, technology that can manipulate / manage a planet's climate (terraform?), aliens with bioelectric fields, alien processes capable of transforming one life form to another, creatures that can make themselves invisible, that sort of thing?
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Post by Steelcan on May 28, 2017 3:16:05 GMT
Unfortunately, BioWare's current crop of writers seems to be unable to give us both aspects of narrative story telling. If we're going to have to have an either/or situation, I would prefer that the science fiction setting actually have some science fiction elements to it; aside from space ships and laser guns. Oh - you mean like intergalactic travel, AI capable of using organic sense mechanisms via a brain implant, gravity wells, technology that can manipulate / manage a planet's climate (terraform?), aliens with bioelectric fields, alien processes capable of transforming one life form to another, creatures that can make themselves invisible, that sort of thing? I think the problem is that most of the sci-fi ground that MEA covers has already been done to death in the Original trilogy and other well known series.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 28, 2017 3:21:09 GMT
Oh - you mean like intergalactic travel, AI capable of using organic sense mechanisms via a brain implant, gravity wells, technology that can manipulate / manage a planet's climate (terraform?), aliens with bioelectric fields, alien processes capable of transforming one life form to another, creatures that can make themselves invisible, that sort of thing? I think the problem is that most of the sci-fi ground that MEA covers has already been done to death in the Original trilogy and other well known series. Well, if it means anything, that would be pretty keeping with tradition, since the trilogy is basically a hodgepodge of ground covered in previous works.
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Post by Steelcan on May 28, 2017 3:37:11 GMT
I think the problem is that most of the sci-fi ground that MEA covers has already been done to death in the Original trilogy and other well known series. Well, if it means anything, that would be pretty keeping with tradition, since the trilogy is basically a hodgepodge of ground covered in previous works. Sure, but I never felt that the writers were merely saying the same thing over and over again until the end of ME3 and I will flaw the game for that. MEA never ceases in its unremitting regurgitation of well worn Sci-Fi, the OT had moments of, if not wholly original, inspired writing on the topics, MEA lacks this.
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Post by dreman999 on May 28, 2017 4:01:13 GMT
Unfortunately, BioWare's current crop of writers seems to be unable to give us both aspects of narrative story telling. If we're going to have to have an either/or situation, I would prefer that the science fiction setting actually have some science fiction elements to it; aside from space ships and laser guns. What do you mean... why would anyone want to hear about astrophysics in a shooter?
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Post by Vortex13 on May 28, 2017 12:58:23 GMT
Unfortunately, BioWare's current crop of writers seems to be unable to give us both aspects of narrative story telling. If we're going to have to have an either/or situation, I would prefer that the science fiction setting actually have some science fiction elements to it; aside from space ships and laser guns. Oh - you mean like intergalactic travel, AI capable of using organic sense mechanisms via a brain implant, gravity wells, technology that can manipulate / manage a planet's climate (terraform?), aliens with bioelectric fields, alien processes capable of transforming one life form to another, creatures that can make themselves invisible, that sort of thing? And how much of those topics explored in depth? Most of those elements are mentioned once, just added into conversations like some mad lib technobabble. The Remnant? "Oh wow they can alter the climate of planet in seconds, must be magic lolz." The Angara? Bio-electricity is mentioned once or twice with no exploration on that facet of their biology, and it has precisely zero impact on how they interact with the Initiative; they're even more human-like than the Asari. Etc. What little science fiction elements there are in Andromeda are just flimsy cardboard backdrops. The game doesn't expect you to want to explore these things, and it certainly doesn't give the player any options to investigate said elements further if he/she was inclined. No, finding ingredients for that 'Movie Night', traveling across multiple worlds, scouring for numerous snacks and locating the "best" worst movie to watch; that's what fans of science fiction want to do. I'll admit that ME 1 might not have had the best examples of originality when it came to science fiction; the Rachni are the poor man's version of the Formics from Ender's Game after all; but at least the narrative went out of it's way to point out the elements that weren't human and tried to explain them to the player, or allowed them to interact with them to an extent.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2017 15:58:31 GMT
Oh - you mean like intergalactic travel, AI capable of using organic sense mechanisms via a brain implant, gravity wells, technology that can manipulate / manage a planet's climate (terraform?), aliens with bioelectric fields, alien processes capable of transforming one life form to another, creatures that can make themselves invisible, that sort of thing? I think the problem is that most of the sci-fi ground that MEA covers has already been done to death in the Original trilogy and other well known series. Is that not true of pretty much everything? Oh - you mean like intergalactic travel, AI capable of using organic sense mechanisms via a brain implant, gravity wells, technology that can manipulate / manage a planet's climate (terraform?), aliens with bioelectric fields, alien processes capable of transforming one life form to another, creatures that can make themselves invisible, that sort of thing? And how much of those topics explored in depth? Most of those elements are mentioned once, just added into conversations like some mad lib technobabble. The Remnant? "Oh wow they can alter the climate of planet in seconds, must be magic lolz." The Angara? Bio-electricity is mentioned once or twice with no exploration on that facet of their biology, and it has precisely zero impact on how they interact with the Initiative; they're even more human-like than the Asari. Etc. How much of any of it was explored in-depth in ME1? We got cursory introductions to the world and some species. In ME1 we knew, for example, that the genophage existed and Wrex wasn't happy about it, but learned a lot more about it as the series progressed. It wasn't until we met Eve in ME3 that we got a female krogan's perspective on anything. We didn't know jack about the reaper's creation or motives until the Leviathan DLC was released. A lot of the backdrop presented in ME1 was political, related to the Citadel's galactic community and the governing thereof. It was well-established long before we got there. That isn't true of Andromeda; we're going through that process in MEA. Some "fans of science fiction" enjoy socializing with the crew. Some "fans of science fiction" are mostly fans of shooters, and want large amounts of combat, which MEA delivers. Some of the other things (remnant technology, kett transformation, the scourge) will likely be expanded in future installments. So, what this is mostly about is your oft-expressed interest in more alien aliens. Like your precious rachni, who were mostly hostile enemies - except for the queen, who was always in a bind begging for mercy when Shepard encountered her, and was inexplicably able to communicate with humans through a recently dead body proxy. I would suggest that most alien characteristics are reflections of some aspects of humanity, amplified and stuffed into a different body. If you're looking for quality hard sci-fi, you'd do well to look outside of ME.
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