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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 11, 2017 19:01:40 GMT
Quite frankly I don't think MEA deserved the reviews it got. Yes, it was raw on release, and even now not everything has been fixed. But the amount of issues seen in it 2 months after release would make it a solid B+ or maybe even an A- game. Too many people wanted payback for ME3 ending. Too many people expected that this will somehow be a continuation of the trilogy. Too many people look at OT (and especially at the writing) with rose tinted glasses. Bottom line is that too many people had too high of expectations for MEA or expected it to be something it was not meant to be. If this does not sink the franchise, the next installment should have a much more reasonable expectations and (hopefully) do much better. I am squarely in the camp of people who thought MEA was well worth the money I paid for it (granted, I waited until the first two patches and THEN spent $20 less than people did on release). The problem is that consistency is rewarded. By all accounts, Watch Dogs 2 and Assassin's Creed Syndicate were both much better games than their predecessors (Watch Dogs and AC Unity). Yet both later releases struggled commercially as a proportion of the audience's reaction was 'meh'... Expectations are high, releasing unpolished hurts (and people have long memories).
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Post by majesticjazz on Jun 11, 2017 19:09:33 GMT
Considering that Anthem is theie new big hitter, I can imagine EA just letting the ME brand quietly fade away. Also, unless DA4 is a big financial hit, I expect DA4 to be the last DA game as well. 10 years from now, Anthem will be the heavy hitter for Bioware along with 1 or 2 other new RPG IPs from Bioware. BG/NWN was one era of Bioware KOTOR/JE was another DA/ME is another ers And Anthem/New IPs will be the next And yet they are in the process of making DA4. It's not even a secret any longer, if it ever was. So, no, not the end of an "era". If you read my post you can see that I acknowledged DA4 and even said if it was a big hit, we could get a DA5. However if DA4 pulls a "MEA" then EA would ultimately pull the plug on that franchise as well and just start fresh with Anthem and other new IPs.
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Post by majesticjazz on Jun 11, 2017 19:12:03 GMT
Another thing that people forget is that both Mass Effect and Dragon Age are multi-media brands with the comics, novels, toys, anime movies, live action web series, and so on. Sometimes those are where the real money and the future are. And yet the 2nd Andromeda novel is supposed to release this summer and yet it doesn't have a release date yet. Hell, asside from Nexus Uprising, NOTHING has been said about ME: Annihilation. The writing is on the wall. Whether you choose to read it and comprehend it is up to you.
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Post by kino on Jun 11, 2017 19:14:05 GMT
And yet they are in the process of making DA4. It's not even a secret any longer, if it ever was. So, no, not the end of an "era". If you read my post you can see that I acknowledged DA4 and even said if it was a big hit, we could get a DA5. However if DA4 pulls a "MEA" then EA would ultimately pull the plug on that franchise as well and just start fresh with Anthem and other new IPs. True. You did say that and I didn't acknowledge that. Mea culpa. In the end though, my point is that this reminds me of the fit people threw about DA2 and how the franchise was dead because of it. A belief that was proven wrong.
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Post by majesticjazz on Jun 11, 2017 19:16:43 GMT
If you had to choose an investment that returns 5 instead of 2, for every buck spent which would you go for? ME rep is in a bad position right now...the best thing Bioware can do is release a huge, 10/10 DLC that redeems everything from main game ... no filler/bloat, good writing, far more expanded setting ( new species...bring that sense of "wonder"), space exploration, etc. How well your next game sells depends more on reception of it's predecessor. But nothing seems to indicate this. Nope DA 2 had a bad reputation and DAI sold like hot cakes, it got 4.9 millions sales and that is not even including the digital sales that are now far more numerous than they used to be. As long as the game is good it can sell well, even if the predecessor was not received well. Difference is that DA2 didnt have the same amount of hype and pressure for it to succeed like MEA did. So you cant really compare them. Also, DAI had the advantage up being the first "next gen" game that Bioware made for the Xbox One and PS4 so a lot of excitment came from that and no doubtly contributed to sales. Finally, ME is a bigger brand than DA so more is expected from Mass Effect than Dragon Age.
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Post by majesticjazz on Jun 11, 2017 19:23:02 GMT
When you say things like that I wonder sometimes...I point you to DA2 as exhibit A. Critically panned and ridiculed for it's map reuse and so-called lack of story. The old BSN was all about how "bad" it was for months, never realizing how well financially it was doing. Personally, I loved DA2 and it's characters. Much like I'm loving ME:A. So keep telling yourself the franchise is dead. I remember DA 2 getting hammered hard on the old bsn. I remember getting called a "biodrone" and "fanboy" for simply saying the game wasn't terrible even after I acknowledged it's flaws. But if DA 2 wasn't enough to completely sink DA than MEA should not be enough to completely sink ME. Hopefully hiatus just means a few years. Again, DA2 didnt sink DA cause it was still a new brand and trying to establish itself. With MEA, it has 3 power house ME games that came before it so the standard was set and it failed to meet those standards. Its sort of like a golfer who bolos at their 2nd major. Nothing to panic about cause he is still new. However that golfer that has been to more majors and even won one, when he bolos it is a bigger deal because you expect more out of him based on his past success in similar tournaments.
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Post by bloodofthefirst on Jun 11, 2017 19:28:56 GMT
DA2 was a big disappointment, but DAI did win a bunch of GOTY award and was pretty popular. I don't think MEA will sink the series, especially when the game was made by a side team, not the main ME team, there was also development hell they went through. As long as the next game is good, I think ME still has a chance. The problem with ME3 was basically a horrible ending then a follow up game that has a lot of issues.
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Post by Daft Arbiter on Jun 11, 2017 19:30:05 GMT
I remember DA 2 getting hammered hard on the old bsn. I remember getting called a "biodrone" and "fanboy" for simply saying the game wasn't terrible even after I acknowledged it's flaws. But if DA 2 wasn't enough to completely sink DA than MEA should not be enough to completely sink ME. Hopefully hiatus just means a few years. Again, DA2 didnt sink DA cause it was still a new brand and trying to establish itself. With MEA, it has 3 power house ME games that came before it so the standard was set and it failed to meet those standards. Its sort of like a golfer who bolos at their 2nd major. Nothing to panic about cause he is still new. However that golfer that has been to more majors and even won one, when he bolos it is a bigger deal because you expect more out of him based on his past success in similar tournaments. Exactly. "Sophomore slump" is a thing for a reason; people see this happen pretty frequently in all forms of media and are used to it. Plus, DAO was such a strong game that following it up with something even better was no small task. Mass Effect is odd in that it didn't have a slump at all. ME2 was generally seen as better than ME1, but ME3 was generally seen as weaker than ME2, and it seems like Andromeda isn't generally seen as superior to ME2, either. Not having an early slump can be surprisingly damaging. If you hold strong for a long time and then there's a dip in quality later, the alarms go off. This is what happened with Season 5 in Game of Thrones (not that it was in danger of getting the show canceled, and Season 6 was highly praised). It was seen as being unusually weak and for that to happen so far along, made some fans concerned that the show was losing steam.
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Post by abaris on Jun 11, 2017 19:31:48 GMT
The problem is that consistency is rewarded. To which I always respond like this. By all means, move on, but don't what the industry calls streamlining these days. Pay some attention to the ones being with you right from the start, and don't take your audience for babbling idiots that want games to be as simple as possible. They didn't add to the ME franchise, they rolled back on it. The only thing better than in previous titles is the combat, but that's not what many Bioware fans expect from that company. They expect story and character interaction. They expect to be a little bit anal about equipping companions to make them better suited for combat situations. Yet they abolished that for good, same as they did with DAII. There are only two aspects I would say they handled better than in previous games. One's combat dynamics, the other one is not being forced into multiplayer to get the most out of your single player game. Everything else is a step back. Which still doesn't make that a bad game, but a game that isn't on par with the latest Bioware titles.
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Post by majesticjazz on Jun 11, 2017 19:32:25 GMT
Also for those who like to bring up DA2 as an example for how it didnt sink the DA brand, listen to this.
DAO was a critical and financial hit for EA so when DA2 failed, the brand overall was stronger to outweigh the failure of DA2. Similar to how the prequels didnt sink the SW franchise. However with MEA, this was also an attempt to save face with the public who was still sour over the ME3 ending. Hell, the whole premise behind Andromeda is to get as far away from the ME3 ending as possible. Bioware was already dealing with memes and whatnot regarding the "pick your color" endings and so on. So when MEA comes.....the game that is supposed to be the fresh start....and then it outdoes ME3 in terms of bad reception, that now marks 2 times in a row that a ME game had become the laughing stock of the internet (minus ME3 Citadel DLC).
So again, MEA not doing ao good IS WAY MORE dire than DA2 not doing so well. But I know people will still use this comparison nevertheless.
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Post by ArabianIGoggles on Jun 11, 2017 19:39:51 GMT
Nope DA 2 had a bad reputation and DAI sold like hot cakes, it got 4.9 millions sales and that is not even including the digital sales that are now far more numerous than they used to be. As long as the game is good it can sell well, even if the predecessor was not received well. Difference is that DA2 didnt have the same amount of hype and pressure for it to succeed like MEA did. So you cant really compare them. Also, DAI had the advantage up being the first "next gen" game that Bioware made for the Xbox One and PS4 so a lot of excitment came from that and no doubtly contributed to sales. Finally, ME is a bigger brand than DA so more is expected from Mass Effect than Dragon Age. It is? I always assumed it was the other way around.
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Post by Daft Arbiter on Jun 11, 2017 19:43:42 GMT
Difference is that DA2 didnt have the same amount of hype and pressure for it to succeed like MEA did. So you cant really compare them. Also, DAI had the advantage up being the first "next gen" game that Bioware made for the Xbox One and PS4 so a lot of excitment came from that and no doubtly contributed to sales. Finally, ME is a bigger brand than DA so more is expected from Mass Effect than Dragon Age. It is? I always assumed it was the other way around. DA's traditionally been second banana to ME but it looks like that's changing with the franchise being shipped off to Montreal and with Edmonton retaining Dragon Age. Quite an interesting change of pace. I guess Bioware is serious about competing with CDPR and Bethesda in the fantasy RPG genre.
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Post by abaris on Jun 11, 2017 19:48:30 GMT
I guess Bioware is serious about competing with CDPR and Bethesda in the fantasy RPG genre. Bethesda, much as I like them for their populated open worlds, never produced a real RPG in my opinion. As I keep saying, I play different games for different reasons. With Bethesda I hope for a nice open world to explore and for modders to take care of the weaknesses. With Bioware I'm hoping for story and for companions to love.
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Post by ArabianIGoggles on Jun 11, 2017 19:49:51 GMT
It is? I always assumed it was the other way around. DA's traditionally been second banana to ME but it looks like that's changing with the franchise being shipped off to Montreal and with Edmonton retaining Dragon Age. Quite an interesting change of pace. I guess Bioware is serious about competing with CDPR and Bethesda in the fantasy RPG genre. So more fucking Dungeons and Dragon themed games. Awesome
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Post by ShadowAngel on Jun 11, 2017 19:51:30 GMT
DA's traditionally been second banana to ME but it looks like that's changing with the franchise being shipped off to Montreal and with Edmonton retaining Dragon Age. Quite an interesting change of pace. I guess Bioware is serious about competing with CDPR and Bethesda in the fantasy RPG genre. So more fucking Dungeons and Dragon themed games. Awesome They're hardly the same.
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Post by abaris on Jun 11, 2017 19:58:47 GMT
So more fucking Dungeons and Dragon themed games. Awesome I'd wish. There's been a decade since the last game based on D&D rules has been published. NWN2 by Obsidian, still my favorite company.
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Post by Daft Arbiter on Jun 11, 2017 19:59:40 GMT
I guess Bioware is serious about competing with CDPR and Bethesda in the fantasy RPG genre. Bethesda, much as I like them for their populated open worlds, never produced a real RPG in my opinion. As I keep saying, I play different games for different reasons. With Bethesda I hope for a nice open world to explore and for modders to take care of the weaknesses. With Bioware I'm hoping for story and for companions to love. What attributes would you say define an RPG as such and not say...an action game? So for example, we can agree then that DAO and KOTOR are pretty standard RPGs. But I would also consider Morrowind a standard RPG, just not within the same archetype.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2017 20:00:28 GMT
I honestly still hope that the franchise isn't dead yet. I would like to see another installment of the ME:A story. Time will tell though... further rampant speculation on the matter is pointless.
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Post by Daft Arbiter on Jun 11, 2017 20:03:05 GMT
I honestly still hope that the franchise isn't dead yet. Time will tell... further rampant speculation on the matter is pointless. In a world where Bubsy of all things gets a new game in 2017, I don't think any major franchise can really "die."
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Post by abaris on Jun 11, 2017 20:03:38 GMT
What attributes would you say define an RPG as such and not say...an action game? So for example, we can agree then that DAO and KOTOR are pretty standard RPGs. But I would also consider Morrowind a standard RPG, just not within the same archetype. Morrowind came out the same time as NWN. Morrowind was a novel concept for the year 2002. Problem is, apart from populating their open worlds, Bethesda never move on and never built on that concept. NWN was classic D&D RPG, based on the rulebook. If I had to make a choice between the two of them, I would say, NWN was more RPG than Morrowind. At least for me, still knowing the old pen and paper days.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2017 20:07:23 GMT
I honestly still hope that the franchise isn't dead yet. Time will tell... further rampant speculation on the matter is pointless. In a world where Bubsy of all things gets a new game in 2017, I don't think any major franchise can really "die." Time will tell... and only time will tell.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2017 20:08:58 GMT
If this was a downright unplayable game (for some people it is), it still wouldn't be a logical course of action to end the ME franchise I mean look at fucking AC Unity
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Post by malgus on Jun 11, 2017 20:10:26 GMT
Nope DA 2 had a bad reputation and DAI sold like hot cakes, it got 4.9 millions sales and that is not even including the digital sales that are now far more numerous than they used to be. As long as the game is good it can sell well, even if the predecessor was not received well. Difference is that DA2 didnt have the same amount of hype and pressure for it to succeed like MEA did. So you cant really compare them. Also, DAI had the advantage up being the first "next gen" game that Bioware made for the Xbox One and PS4 so a lot of excitment came from that and no doubtly contributed to sales. Finally, ME is a bigger brand than DA so more is expected from Mass Effect than Dragon Age. Oh YES I can. And Not More is excepted from Mass effect, when you look at the physical sales DAO sold 4,74 millions while ME 3 despite having a foundation of two previous game and being the closing chapter of the trilogy sold 4,54 millions physical copies. Where did you saw that mass effect has more pressure to sell more? One episode of dragon age sold more back in 2009. And who cares about being the first next gen, the only point was "I am excited because its a new bioware game" barely anyone were speaking about the new gen tech on the forums before DAI was relased, it was about romance not being bi, story, who is the bad guy etc. Normal bioware discussion.
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Post by abaris on Jun 11, 2017 20:13:32 GMT
What attributes would you say define an RPG as such and not say...an action game? So for example, we can agree then that DAO and KOTOR are pretty standard RPGs. But I would also consider Morrowind a standard RPG, just not within the same archetype. You also have to define it in time. Do you know how I went wow when first stepping off that boat in Morrowind and being attacked by all the impressions of the first small hamlet (I've long forgotten it's name). The music, which is still one of the best game soundtracks I ever found, the day/night cycle, the weather. All of this made me forget and overlook that there really wasn't much of a reactive world. I mean, I noticed, but I kept thinking to myself, give it a break, technology isn't ready for that yet. That's no longer an excuse for Bethesda games in the year of 2015, which saw FO4. I could go on about other companies and their weaknesses, but that wouldn't be appropriate for a single reply and nobody really loves a wall of text.
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Post by abaris on Jun 11, 2017 20:16:46 GMT
Oh YES I can. And Not More is excepted from Mass effect, when you look at the physical sales DAO sold 4,74 millions while ME 3 despite having a foundation of two previous game and being the closing chapter of the trilogy sold 4,54 millions physical copies. Where did you saw that mass effect has more pressure to sell more? One episode of dragon age sold more back in 2009. Don't tie it to sales. They tell you nothing. It's revenue against business plan, against company projections. Sales don't tell you much on themselves. Production costs, manpower tied for a certain amount of time and market reasearch could tell youu the whole story. But that's a story we have never been privy of.
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