malgus
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Post by malgus on Jun 11, 2017 20:20:10 GMT
Also for those who like to bring up DA2 as an example for how it didnt sink the DA brand, listen to this. DAO was a critical and financial hit for EA so when DA2 failed, the brand overall was stronger to outweigh the failure of DA2. Similar to how the prequels didnt sink the SW franchise. However with MEA, this was also an attempt to save face with the public who was still sour over the ME3 ending. Hell, the whole premise behind Andromeda is to get as far away from the ME3 ending as possible. Bioware was already dealing with memes and whatnot regarding the "pick your color" endings and so on. So when MEA comes.....the game that is supposed to be the fresh start....and then it outdoes ME3 in terms of bad reception, that now marks 2 times in a row that a ME game had become the laughing stock of the internet (minus ME3 Citadel DLC). So again, MEA not doing ao good IS WAY MORE dire than DA2 not doing so well. But I know people will still use this comparison nevertheless. Nope, ME 3 ending did have meme about its ending, but there was the extended cut that made it better for a lot of people, the game itself was said to be well done until the last 10 minutes, and with the relase of leviathan and citadel dlc, ME 3 today is regarded way more warmly than it was at release. Sure they are the one who are obsessed it about ME 3 ending, but right now, most people have moved on from the original ending. the problems was the ending not the game itself and that was fixed with many with the EC. No such things happen with dragon age 2, the dlcs did not made things better about the biggest complain people had, or they barely did it. Sure they are people who have warmed up to it as of now, but its more minimal and its mostly Bioware fans, not the bigger audience.
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Post by llandwynwyn on Jun 11, 2017 20:28:32 GMT
The reason DA2 got a sequel was: IT SOLD. It was cheap to make and sold well.
DA2 was just as mem'd as MEA, the difference is that it was mainly done by the "hardcore" gamers, instead of them + media + the general public (that was always kind to BW). It was badly received by such gamers and created a divide in DAO's fanbase (which CDPR was smart to attract). So EA was happy enough to give them dlcs and planned an expansion, that then was cancelled and gave birth to DAI.
DAI was well successful for a lot of reasons, one was that TW3 wasn't yet released. I'm not saying it was the main motive, but people need to realize that after it was game changing to a lot of gamers. Certain BW flaws, that they ignored for so long, won't be forgiven by the general public anymore.
Meanwhile, MEA didn't have a small dev cycle and sales...yeah, we don't know but EA/BW response indicates they aren't happy. The reason it's bashed and mocked is because it failed in many ways. Too many to listen here.
tl;dr. DA2 SOLD VERY WELL, EA WAS HAPPY SO THEY WERE READY TO GIVE IT ANOTHER GO. WHO KNOWS WITH MEA.
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Post by malgus on Jun 11, 2017 20:36:30 GMT
The reason DA2 got a sequel was: IT SOLD. It was cheap to make and sold well. DA2 was just as mem'd as MEA, the difference is that it was mainly done by the "hardcore" gamers, instead of them + media + the general public (that was always kind to BW). It was badly received by such gamers and created a divide in DAO's fanbase (which CDPR was smart to attract). So EA was happy enough to give them dlcs and planned an expansion, that then was cancelled and gave birth to DAI. DAI was well successful for a lot of reasons, one was that TW3 wasn't yet released. I'm not saying it was the main motive, but people need to realize that after it was game changing to a lot of gamers. Certain BW flaws, that they ignored for so long, won't be forgiven by the general public anymore. Meanwhile, MEA didn't have a small dev cycle and sales...yeah, we don't know but EA/BW response indicates they aren't happy. The reason it's bashed and mocked is because it failed in many ways. Too many to listen here. tl;dr. DA2 SOLD VERY WELL, EA WAS HAPPY SO THEY WERE READY TO GIVE IT ANOTHER GO. WHO KNOWS WITH MEA. DA 2 barely sold more than MEA. it sure it sold 2.67 millions physical copies, but that was at a time where digital sales were much less important than they are right now, were they make for more than 74% of the total sales : www.playstationlifestyle.net/2017/04/19/esa-video-game-sales-figures-show-74-percent-of-sales-are-digital/MEA still sold 1.5 million copies and those are only the physical one and we know right now the the digital sales completely dwarf the physical ones.
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Post by malgus on Jun 11, 2017 20:38:46 GMT
Oh YES I can. And Not More is excepted from Mass effect, when you look at the physical sales DAO sold 4,74 millions while ME 3 despite having a foundation of two previous game and being the closing chapter of the trilogy sold 4,54 millions physical copies. Where did you saw that mass effect has more pressure to sell more? One episode of dragon age sold more back in 2009. Don't tie it to sales. They tell you nothing. It's revenue against business plan, against company projections. Sales don't tell you much on themselves. Production costs, manpower tied for a certain amount of time and market reasearch could tell youu the whole story. But that's a story we have never been privy of. But why they should have more exception for mass effect than they had for dragon age? they had the proof that a dragon age game sold extremly well, just as much as ME 3. Did dragon age cost them more than mass effect 3? and even if it did, Dragon age had no fondation at all and despite that it sold more. So I don't see why mass effect is suddenly suppose to sell more than dragon age.
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Post by llandwynwyn on Jun 11, 2017 20:41:41 GMT
It doesn't matter how much more or less than MEA it sold. DA2 was cheaper to make and what they made in their first week alone (on DAO's success) was enough to please EA. So, it sold very well for them. Their dlc (itens pack, Legacy and Mark of the assassin) also did fine, though I personally suspect Tallis didn't sold as much as Legacy.
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Post by malgus on Jun 11, 2017 20:50:45 GMT
It doesn't matter how much more or less than MEA it sold. DA2 was cheaper to make and what they made in their first week alone (on DAO's success) was enough to please EA. So, it sold very well for them. Their dlc (itens pack, Legacy and Mark of the assassin) also did fine, though I personally suspect Tallis didn't sold as much as Legacy. Just like an eventual MEA 2 would be cheaper to make, now that the foundation is already built. And if the 40 million budget is accurate, they already made their money back as of now and will only continue to make profits, the game industry is not the same as it used to be. Before it was most money at release and barely more when time passes. Nowadays game make profits on time since digital ism ore important than ever. Heck tomb raider 2013 when it came out did not recup its budget in its opening weeks while selling 3,4 millions copies but after 2 years, it manage to sell more than 8,5 million copies and made profits for square enix. And what tells you the dlc of MEA won't sell?
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Post by varicite on Jun 11, 2017 21:01:23 GMT
I just dont get it. FFXIII was a horrible game and it got 2 bad sequels and the series is still going. Um, that's a terrible example. FFXIII and it's sequels' poor performance almost sank the entire AAA jrpg market, to the point where pretty much everything was riding on the success of FFXV... There were several articles about exactly that prior to FFXV's release. Not just the franchise, Japanese developers were poised to stop making big budget jrpg's entirely.
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Post by abaris on Jun 11, 2017 21:11:14 GMT
But why they should have more exception for mass effect than they had for dragon age? they had the proof that a dragon age game sold extremly well, just as much as ME 3. Did dragon age cost them more than mass effect 3? and even if it did, Dragon age had no fondation at all and despite that it sold more. So I don't see why mass effect is suddenly suppose to sell more than dragon age. That's not responding to my argument. Which is, stop number crunching already. Different development cycles, different amount of manpower needed, different projections tied to the particular release. You can't say apples sold x amount of times and oranges y amount of times and construct an argument of how successful the sale was around that. There are different business plans tied to every release. Based on what they expected to be the reception and the revenue. So, once again, numbers in itself don't tell you anything on their own.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Jun 11, 2017 21:20:29 GMT
Maybe I can offer some feedback as an OT player who hasn't played a single second of Andromeda. It may have been named "Mass Effect" but it doesn't particularly feel like Mass Effect to me. Mass Effect is the story of superhero and his/her sworn retainers on a quest to save the Milky Way. But these characters have no impact on Andromeda. And it's not even in the Milky Way anymore. So everything that I got attached to over three games has been washed away. Unless the gameplay was truly revolutionary, it just wasn't going to pique my interest; and it didn't. Maybe the Andromeda characters are good. But I don't care. They aren't the characters I got attached to. It's not even the same setting I got attached to. And I don't mind having to adjust to new characters or scenery. My favorite game series, The Elder Scrolls, is built around a cycle where each protagonist (and almost the entire supporting cast) disappears after each installment. But I knew this going in, and I knew what to expect, and therefore this doesn't bother me. But with Mass Effect, I got so invested into the series because of all the characters and the like, and Bioware washed it away to make way for a new game. Those characters were at the core of what made me a fan of Mass Effect to begin with, and so with them removed, I removed myself from having any real interest in playing Andromeda. I sunk a lot of money into the OT. Not just three games and their myriad DLC, but t-shirts, knickknacks, and other such goodies. But not only do I not have any Andromeda merch; I don't have Andromeda, and I have no desire to even bother playing it. If Bioware had gone the Rogue Squadron route and said "We're still going to make the main series, but here's Andromeda, a neat little side story!" I'd definitely have gotten Andromeda and given it a chance. But with the essence of the main series all but gone, it feels like a waste of time to even bother. Maybe I'm an outlier. I'm not the Lorax or anything; I don't speak for anyone or anything else as far as I'm aware. But I'd be willing to bet that for one reason or another, a good number of people just never bothered (and never will bother) with Andromeda for reasons not terribly dissimilar to mine. I don't completely disagree with this, and understand all of it. My take from the OT, beyond Super Shep and the Mecha-Deus Ex (yeah, that's a little weird but there ya go), was a universe I could relate to, because I was born there, but all of these alien races I never imagined; finding pyramids in systems far from Sol; scientifically derived "space magic" that took a leap of faith but was still in the sci-fi realm.... The game was much more to me than Shepard, because outside of immaculate reconception it was lore driven and was different but comfortably familiar. It was the future I sorta dreamed, just different and still awesome. The omission of unique characters (Asari clone issue), the writing aimed at pubescence, the Collector's Edition consisting of fucking MP packs... I could go on, but at this point it's a tired rehash. Mass Effect devolved in each iteration, and unfortunately that continued in MEA.
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Post by Daft Arbiter on Jun 11, 2017 22:39:35 GMT
What attributes would you say define an RPG as such and not say...an action game? So for example, we can agree then that DAO and KOTOR are pretty standard RPGs. But I would also consider Morrowind a standard RPG, just not within the same archetype. Morrowind came out the same time as NWN. Morrowind was a novel concept for the year 2002. Problem is, apart from populating their open worlds, Bethesda never move on and never built on that concept. NWN was classic D&D RPG, based on the rulebook. If I had to make a choice between the two of them, I would say, NWN was more RPG than Morrowind. At least for me, still knowing the old pen and paper days. It's mostly an engine issue. Gamebryo/Creation is great for radiant AI but kind of sketchy for a living, breathing "open world." Of course they might be making a brand-new engine for TESVI.
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Post by abaris on Jun 11, 2017 23:01:02 GMT
It's mostly an engine issue. Gamebryo/Creation is great for radiant AI but kind of sketchy for a living, breathing "open world." Of course they might be making a brand-new engine for TESVI. No, it's not an engine issue. It's lazy development when some legionary asks the Knight of the Imperial Dragon "where's your uniform" in Morrowind and the settlers in your just created Fallout 4 settlement voice their hope of you not being a Synth or a robber. They haven't moved half an inch between Morrowind and FO4 as far as the world reacting to you is concerned. Thankfully these games are modded and this cringefest is taken care of. Usually by one individual doing what an army of developers couldn't be arsed to do.
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Post by majesticjazz on Jun 11, 2017 23:14:02 GMT
It doesn't matter how much more or less than MEA it sold. DA2 was cheaper to make and what they made in their first week alone (on DAO's success) was enough to please EA. So, it sold very well for them. Their dlc (itens pack, Legacy and Mark of the assassin) also did fine, though I personally suspect Tallis didn't sold as much as Legacy. Just like an eventual MEA 2 would be cheaper to make, now that the foundation is already built. And if the 40 million budget is accurate, they already made their money back as of now and will only continue to make profits, the game industry is not the same as it used to be. Before it was most money at release and barely more when time passes. Nowadays game make profits on time since digital ism ore important than ever. Heck tomb raider 2013 when it came out did not recup its budget in its opening weeks while selling 3,4 millions copies but after 2 years, it manage to sell more than 8,5 million copies and made profits for square enix. And what tells you the dlc of MEA won't sell? You really think MEA2 (if there is one) will be cheaper to make? If so, then why wasn't ME2 cheaper to make than ME1? Or how come ME3 was not cheaper to make than ME2? Or how come MEA wasn't cheaper to make than DAI?
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Post by 10k on Jun 11, 2017 23:17:07 GMT
You know Andromeda only had a hand in sinking this series. As I see it, the series went down hill after ME3. So Andromeda wasn't alone in causing the destruction of this series. And before anyone say: "It was just the ending" No the entirety of ME3 had problems.
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Post by abaris on Jun 11, 2017 23:26:09 GMT
You know Andromeda only had a hand in sinking this series. As I see it, the series went down hill after ME3. So Andromeda wasn't alone in causing the destruction of this series. And before anyone say: "It was just the ending" No the entirety of ME3 had problems. I wouldn't say that. ME3, including DLCs was quite a satisfying ride until the ending. To call that a disappointment would be an understatement. The original, I mean, not Mehem and getting rid of starbrat entirely.
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Post by biotichazard on Jun 11, 2017 23:30:52 GMT
ME3 SP and MEA has caused real reputation damage to several brands. ME brand, Bioware brand, EA brand. If MEA doesn't make significant amount of profits, then EA will not care if it's the greatest story in human history (which by all accounts, it's not). There's only so many projects you can do with the resources you're paying. They're going to redistribute those resources to other projects they think will boost reputation and profits. This is the 2nd game in a row in a series where they've been lambasted by the press and fans. Plus, the original series creator is no longer with the company. I don't think they're going to risk another one.
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Post by armass81 on Jun 11, 2017 23:35:11 GMT
"Mass Effect devolved in each iteration, and unfortunately that continued in MEA."
Unfortunately, yes i kinda agree with this.
If theyve truly lost the passion and vision for this series going forward... it dies. And stays dead. If it hasnt already.
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Post by majesticjazz on Jun 11, 2017 23:37:41 GMT
You know Andromeda only had a hand in sinking this series. As I see it, the series went down hill after ME3. So Andromeda wasn't alone in causing the destruction of this series. And before anyone say: "It was just the ending" No the entirety of ME3 had problems. I wouldn't say that. ME3, including DLCs was quite a satisfying ride until the ending. To call that a disappointment would be an understatement. The original, I mean, not Mehem and getting rid of starbrat entirely. He didn't say it was a disappointment, he said that the beginning of the end for the ME brand started with ME3, specifically the endings which caused great disappointment. Again the whole reason why we went to Andromeda was cause Bioware had to find a way to make a ME game without confronting the ME3 endings. MEA was supposed to make things right with fans and instead it double-down on becoming a meme generator.
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Post by biotichazard on Jun 11, 2017 23:41:33 GMT
If the bashing of ME3 SP eventually led the series creator (and maybe creator of Dylan) to leave the company, what do you guys think is going to happen after MEA?
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Post by armass81 on Jun 11, 2017 23:49:27 GMT
"If the bashing of ME3 SP eventually led the series creator (and maybe creator of Dylan) to leave the company, what do you guys think is going to happen after MEA?"
Its conjecture, i doubt that was the whole reason for Casey leaving. Might be a part of the reason, same for the doctors. The fan reaction to ME3 endings probably sunk many hearts there. What i find incredible is that that vitriol has somehow burned its way bright even to he present in some people. Its insane. After reading so many comments on the old board, and aroudn the net.... Some people on the net really seem to hate Bioware, its like the company killed their children and then burned their houses and they seek eternal vengeance, its almost comical if it wasnt so disturbing. I know Bioware has done mistakes, but they dont deserve that much hate or obsessing over. Its hard for me to think of seeing any other game company hated this much in my experiences. Well, maybe Konami after the whole Kojima/mobile phone business.
As for your question: Hopefully Mac Walters leaves, or at least is demoted... And someone more competent steps up.
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Post by biotichazard on Jun 12, 2017 0:22:55 GMT
"If the bashing of ME3 SP eventually led the series creator (and maybe creator of Dylan) to leave the company, what do you guys think is going to happen after MEA?" Its conjecture, i doubt that was the whole reason for Casey leaving. Might be a part of the reason, same for the doctors. The fan reaction to ME3 endings probably sunk many hearts there. What i find incredible is that that vitriol has somehow burned its way bright even to he present in some people. Its insane. Some people on the net really seem to hate Bioware, its like the company killed their children and then burned their houses and they seek eternal vengeance, its almost comical if it wasnt so disturbing. I know Bioware has done mistakes, but they dont deserve that. As for your question: Hopefully Mac Walters leaves, or at least is demoted... And someone more competent steps up. Well, I cannot blame those fans... anymore. I was so much looking forward to MEA that I built my current max spec'd machine last year anticipating this game. I wasn't happy to see so many people bash the game early on as I thought I was still having fun and hoping people hung on. It was when a long time ME3 friend who probably played at least twice as much as I did (me 2,000+ hours) in ME3 MP decided to quit MEA that made me think about why I was still playing. It was OCD. I was trying to max out my manifest, but the games were getting tedious. It's too easy. People were crushing gold within 3 days of the game release. Look at my threads. You can see me encouraging people to play gold because it's so easy, back in the 1st week of the game. Once I maxed my manifest, I realized I really didn't enjoy the game at all. I now no longer blame those who whined about the game early on. My OCD blocked those complaints, but now I agree with them. MEA MP isn't very fun at all. My gold games started feeling like speed runs. Guaranteed credits in 12 mins. I don't know if we can entirely blame Mac Walters. Maybe his heart wasn't in it. If you read the Kotaku article, a lot of the blame goes to EA and the developers who wanted to do a procedurally generated world. Neither No Man Sky nor Starship Citizen will ever amount to anything. We'll look back 10 years from now and shake our heads at those two games. Games need a good story. I don't care how wonderful the combat or exploration is if I'm not drawn into the story. Also, games need to be challenging, and the AI in this game is really not threatening. And lastly, gamers need to care about the characters in the game. I didn't play the SP and apparently, no one likes any of the MEA SP characters. This wasn't the case in the original trilogy. If ME3 didn't have MP, I would still have bought it because I liked the SP characters.
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Post by derrame on Jun 12, 2017 0:22:56 GMT
is the franchise already sunken?
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Post by blueasari on Jun 12, 2017 0:24:07 GMT
I'd say it is average, not above average and for a great series like Mass Effect that is not good enough.
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Post by armass81 on Jun 12, 2017 0:28:17 GMT
"If the bashing of ME3 SP eventually led the series creator (and maybe creator of Dylan) to leave the company, what do you guys think is going to happen after MEA?" Its conjecture, i doubt that was the whole reason for Casey leaving. Might be a part of the reason, same for the doctors. The fan reaction to ME3 endings probably sunk many hearts there. What i find incredible is that that vitriol has somehow burned its way bright even to he present in some people. Its insane. Some people on the net really seem to hate Bioware, its like the company killed their children and then burned their houses and they seek eternal vengeance, its almost comical if it wasnt so disturbing. I know Bioware has done mistakes, but they dont deserve that. As for your question: Hopefully Mac Walters leaves, or at least is demoted... And someone more competent steps up. Well, I cannot blame those fans... anymore. I was so much looking forward to MEA that I built my current max spec'd machine last year anticipating this game. I wasn't happy to see so many people bash the game early on as I thought I was still having fun and hoping people hung on. It was when a long time ME3 friend who probably played at least twice as much as I did (me 2,000+ hours) in ME3 MP decided to quit MEA that made me think about why I was still playing. It was OCD. I was trying to max out my manifest, but the games were getting tedious. It's too easy. People were crushing gold within 3 days of the game release. Look at my threads. You can see me encouraging people to play gold because it's so easy, back in the 1st week of the game. Once I maxed my manifest, I realized I really didn't enjoy the game at all. I now no longer blame those who whined about the game early on. My OCD blocked those complaints, but now I agree with them. MEA MP isn't very fun at all. My gold games started feeling like speed runs. Guaranteed credits in 12 mins. I don't know if we can entirely blame Mac Walters. Maybe his heart wasn't in it. If you read the Kotaku article, a lot of the blame goes to EA and the developers who wanted to do a procedurally generated world. Neither No Man Sky nor Starship Citizen will ever amount to anything. We'll look back 10 years from now and shake our heads at those two games. Games need a good story. I don't care how wonderful the combat or exploration is if I'm not drawn into the story. Also, games need to be challenging, and the AI in this game is really not threatening. For a good story, Mac Walters or that Halo guy is definately not the one you go to. Weve seen that. Hopefully someone else does too in there. The problem is, I dont think they give a rats ass anymore. The cynic in me has arisen once more. And if this IP dies or is buried in a warehouse somwhere with EA eternally holding the key, im done with Bioware most likely, and these forums. Dragon Age doesnt intrest me in the least nor does the new "Anthem" from at least from what ive seen and heard of it being "EAs Destiny"(I dont give a fuck about Destiny either). ME was the only thing that intrested me here, if its gone, so am I. Hopefully someone, somwhere will come up again with an amazing series, preferably space opera that i can love again. Without constantly wondering and dreading if the fans are gonna hate the next instalment or if the devs will fuck it up again.
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malgus
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by malgus on Jun 12, 2017 0:51:19 GMT
Just like an eventual MEA 2 would be cheaper to make, now that the foundation is already built. And if the 40 million budget is accurate, they already made their money back as of now and will only continue to make profits, the game industry is not the same as it used to be. Before it was most money at release and barely more when time passes. Nowadays game make profits on time since digital ism ore important than ever. Heck tomb raider 2013 when it came out did not recup its budget in its opening weeks while selling 3,4 millions copies but after 2 years, it manage to sell more than 8,5 million copies and made profits for square enix. And what tells you the dlc of MEA won't sell? You really think MEA2 (if there is one) will be cheaper to make? If so, then why wasn't ME2 cheaper to make than ME1? Or how come ME3 was not cheaper to make than ME2? Or how come MEA wasn't cheaper to make than DAI? Do you have numbers to prove that ME 2 or 3 were not cheaper to make than their predecessor? And even so its totally normal that ME 2 would need more work since the combat of the first mass effect sucked balls and badly needed to be reform which mean a huge change in gameplay, including the tons of different weapons that felt different and had different functionnality contrarly to the first were weapons were all the same except for stats. But I would like if you could show me where did you see the sequel were not cheaper to make, because even ME 2 could be based on the foundation of the first. And MEA has completely different function than DAI, the combat is completely different, leveling system is different, vehicle is not the same as a horse etc. Many feature had to be built from scratch because the frostbite was not made for RPG's, right now there is a fondation that bioware can just improve and build upon it, many ressources that were spent building the fondation will not be as needed for a sequel.
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Post by suikoden on Jun 12, 2017 0:51:41 GMT
I just dont get it. FFXIII was a horrible game and it got 2 bad sequels and the series is still going. Same with Assassins Creed with some of its entries, even Bubsy is getting a new fucking game apparently. BUBSY! WTF? Theres a game series that deserves 3/10, not MEA as some peopel have branded it. MEA is above average game and apparently it sinks the entire series? Explain this to me please. Or is it just a bunch of chicken littles now yelling Well, firstly, the game is way below average - if we’re going by critical reviews and/or overall sales. It’s been ridiculed to death online - no one’s saying it sunk the entire franchise, but it’s sure as hell sunk Andromeda. If Dylan is as good as it looks, then a remaster of the trilogy would probably lead to a rekindling of the franchise. But - Dylan looks kinda like what Andromeda should have been, so if anything, Dylan / Anthem, will probably replace Mass Effect. TLDR - Anthem is going to replace Mass Effect.
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