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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2017 11:28:52 GMT
It would be tough to implement well, but I think that if the player were occasionally allowed to flip to playing as the villain and make some dialogue choices in that respect (say, playing as Archon as opposed to playing as the twin), players might tend to get more invested in their villains when they have a had in developing their character as well.
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Post by cypherj on Jul 28, 2017 11:47:52 GMT
The Collectors weren't evil for the sake of being evil. They were already in the business of kidnapping people, just in the past they would work for slavers. They just put the talents to work for the reapers to collect bodies for them the create a reaper. They were already evil traffickers. The Collectors ARE the Reapers... they're just mindless drones, equivalent to Husks. They have no real motivations other than what the Reapers dictate. I'm talking from your perspective as a player. When you first see them Miranda tells you what they are, and what they have been doing, and you're left to wonder why they are now working for the Reapers. You don't find out the truth until later on. But they aren't portrayed as being evil for the sake of being evil. They were already bad people from your perspective.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jul 28, 2017 11:52:58 GMT
Whilst I don't think they were the best written villains I do enjoy going up against the Kett though and the final mission was a lot of fun and is a challenge as I've yet to complete the final mission without at least dying once. So all in all I'd give them a bigger plus than a negative. Because the mission here is far better than the final fight for example than Corypheus's as I don't think I've ever died in that last DAI mission where you fight him at the Temple of Sacred Ashes. I get the feeling though that the fact the Kett were a bit weak in terms of story was in part down to the troubled production cycle MEA had because had they spent more time tightening up on the story rather than developing a system that ultimately didn't work the Kett would have been better antagonists
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Post by cypherj on Jul 28, 2017 12:07:28 GMT
Whilst I don't think they were the best written villains I do enjoy going up against the Kett though and the final mission was a lot of fun and is a challenge as I've yet to complete the final mission without at least dying once. So all in all I'd give them a bigger plus than a negative. Because the mission here is far better than the final fight for example than Corypheus's as I don't think I've ever died in that last DAI mission where you fight him at the Temple of Sacred Ashes. I get the feeling though that the fact the Kett were a bit weak in terms of story was in part down to the troubled production cycle MEA had because had they spent more time tightening up on the story rather than developing a system that ultimately didn't work the Kett would have been better antagonists It's because the Kett were the only main villain. In ME:1 you had Saren working on behalf of the reapers using Geth, so that the reapers could remain in the shadows and keep their air of invincibility. Then when Sovereign finally comes out he lays waste to the citadel fleet and defense so that now you're like if one can do this, what can hundreds do. In ME:2 the collectors had limited missions, and you spent most of the game killing mercs as the fodder enemies. When you did fight collectors you snuck onto their ship and then escaped, you didn't constantly overrun them and defeat them. They killed you in the opening scene and kept you in fear thinking that you needed to improve yourself and your capabilities to fight them toe to toe again, which happened at the end. ME:3 the reapers actually came and they spent the whole game beating you over the head with the idea that you couldn't beat them conventionally. Now ME:A Kett are main villain and the fodder enemy. You're defeating them soundly from the start, the prologue. You take the vault from them on Habitat 7, you take a base and their exaltation facility on Voeld, you overrun the Archon's flagship, and then take back the Salarian Ark, take back the Asari Ark. The exiles run them off of Voeld and put their heads up on spikes as trophies. Where were they ever cast as formidable up until the very end of the game? They never built them up. Even though Saren was a surrogate, he still stayed a step ahead of you and succeeded in what he was trying to do on multiple occasions. Kett had no victories, offered you no setbacks. Think of the end of ME2 when you see the sea of reapers, you're like oh crap. Now in ME:A when I see the new Kett leader turn and walk away from the window, I'm like, who cares. I'm not scared of them.
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Post by liquidsnake on Jul 28, 2017 12:19:24 GMT
Eh.. simply put for me, Archon was better than the average Mass Effect villain. He was sub-par compared to Saren and Sovereign. However, I thought he was better than Harbinger, the Illusive Man and the Catalyst (if you consider space child a villain) and just leaps and bounds over the abysmal Kai Leng.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2017 12:20:06 GMT
The Archon left me totally indifferent... which is a very bad point. I like to love or hate a villain. Indifference is the worse thing that can happen.
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Post by haolyn on Jul 28, 2017 12:26:47 GMT
The Collectors ARE the Reapers... they're just mindless drones, equivalent to Husks. They have no real motivations other than what the Reapers dictate. I'm talking from your perspective as a player. When you first see them Miranda tells you what they are, and what they have been doing, and you're left to wonder why they are now working for the Reapers. You don't find out the truth until later on. But they aren't portrayed as being evil for the sake of being evil. They were already bad people from your perspective. They are bad people from my perspective but they aren't evil for the sake of being evil. They're just evil for an unknown reason until we find out later that they aren't evil at all and are just mindless drones....... ok.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 28, 2017 12:42:36 GMT
I'm talking from your perspective as a player. When you first see them Miranda tells you what they are, and what they have been doing, and you're left to wonder why they are now working for the Reapers. You don't find out the truth until later on. But they aren't portrayed as being evil for the sake of being evil. They were already bad people from your perspective. They are bad people from my perspective but they aren't evil for the sake of being evil. They're just evil for an unknown reason until we find out later that they aren't evil at all and are just mindless drones....... ok. I picked success simply because of how evil he looks and acts. Is he one dimensional? Yeah but most antagonists are at least in games and movies. Books it's easier to write the motivations and such than it is here.
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Post by cypherj on Jul 28, 2017 12:50:03 GMT
I'm talking from your perspective as a player. When you first see them Miranda tells you what they are, and what they have been doing, and you're left to wonder why they are now working for the Reapers. You don't find out the truth until later on. But they aren't portrayed as being evil for the sake of being evil. They were already bad people from your perspective. They are bad people from my perspective but they aren't evil for the sake of being evil. They're just evil for an unknown reason until we find out later that they aren't evil at all and are just mindless drones....... ok. Now you're just being difficult for the sake of being difficult. They're already criminals, but they're not criminals who want to see the world burn. So the game has you wondering why these traffikers are working with people who want to end the galaxy as we know it, and the game eventually connects to dots for you. They just weren't people who showed up from nowhere with no history.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2017 12:52:02 GMT
The Archon was not a good villain, it was not a bad villain either...it was simply meh which is actually the worst thing you could be. The big issue of BW villains is that you interact very little with them, you don't see what kind of person they are, what they stand for, what ideals motivate them to do their actions. Villains need to be relatable, you need to empathize with them to some extent. I liked Loghain, Saren and TIM (pre-ME3). They were very interesting and charming personalities you always wanted to hear.
OP your comparison of BW villains with Gaunter O'Dimm is simply unfair, he is the devil himself you can't beat that.
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Post by haolyn on Jul 28, 2017 12:58:44 GMT
They are bad people from my perspective but they aren't evil for the sake of being evil. They're just evil for an unknown reason until we find out later that they aren't evil at all and are just mindless drones....... ok. Now you're just being difficult for the sake of being difficult. They're already criminals, but they're not criminals who want to see the world burn. So the game has you wondering why these traffikers are working with people who want to end the galaxy as we know it, and the game eventually connects to dots for you. They just weren't people who showed up from nowhere with no history. Their only "history" is that they kidnap people, that doesn't make them compelling villains anymore than it does the kett. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
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Post by ozzie on Jul 28, 2017 13:10:33 GMT
That's all very subjective as I didn't feel that the Collectors being evil just for the sake of it is understandable seeing as how they were the main antagonist of ME2, not the Reapers. I'm not sure why people are so hell bent on claiming that MEA is so much worse than the OT with regards to villains when you hardly had decent antagonists in the OT. I'd rather have the Archon than Benezia or Harbinger or Kai Leng. An antagonist is only as strong as the threat he presents, and the enemies in MET were at least credible. Their technological capabilities, their military doctrines and their motivations all stacked up, the Kett are a mess in that respect. Whenever we see Cerberus, the Collectors or Geth in action they are always acting with purpose, carrying out a mission, usually with a high level of efficiency and brutal maleficence until the hero shows up and throws a spanner in the works. The vast majority of Kett we see in ME:A don't seem to be doing anything, they are just standing around waiting to be shot at, yet we are supposed to believe that they are a highly ordered, disciplined military force acting with unified purpose.... They fair no better off camera... This, is perhaps the Archons greatest failing, he has noting to back up his bravado, his forces are a joke who literally die in their thousands to a 20-something with next to no military training! The Geth, the Collectors, the Reapers, even Cerberus, were credible on and off camera, dangerous, terrifying and well capable of inflicting grave harm. Not to mention that Saren, Benezia, Sovereign and Harbinger were all dangerous in their own right, the latter two capable of rending whole fleets of war ships to scrap. Archon has next to nothing going for him in terms of being a strong antagonist.
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Post by cypherj on Jul 28, 2017 13:10:37 GMT
Now you're just being difficult for the sake of being difficult. They're already criminals, but they're not criminals who want to see the world burn. So the game has you wondering why these traffikers are working with people who want to end the galaxy as we know it, and the game eventually connects to dots for you. They just weren't people who showed up from nowhere with no history. Their only "history" is that they kidnap people, that doesn't make them compelling villains anymore than it does the kett. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Were they compelling, not really. Were they built up by the game to be something bigger than you, definitely. They killed you in the first scene, and then the focus of the game after that was to get stronger so that you could face them again and win. They were technologically more advanced than you to the point where you had to develop countermeasures for things like the seeker swarms. You weren't just taking over their bases and ships. You escaped from them after you gathered what info you needed to even the terms when you decided you were ready to face them head on again. The Kett were never built up, they were inferior to you all game. Never offered an setbacks, had no real victories in the game until the end. You took the vault from them on Habitat 7, took their base and the exaltation facility on Voeld, exiles kicked them off Kadara, you took over the Archon's flagship and took the Salarian Ark, took the Asari Ark. They were supposed to have this galactic empire, but you would never know it by how they were portrayed in the game.
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Post by haolyn on Jul 28, 2017 13:55:08 GMT
That's all very subjective as I didn't feel that the Collectors being evil just for the sake of it is understandable seeing as how they were the main antagonist of ME2, not the Reapers. I'm not sure why people are so hell bent on claiming that MEA is so much worse than the OT with regards to villains when you hardly had decent antagonists in the OT. I'd rather have the Archon than Benezia or Harbinger or Kai Leng. An antagonist is only as strong as the threat he presents, and the enemies in MET were at least credible. Their technological capabilities, their military doctrines and their motivations all stacked up, the Kett are a mess in that respect. Whenever we see Cerberus, the Collectors or Geth in action they are always acting with purpose, carrying out a mission, usually with a high level of efficiency and brutal maleficence until the hero shows up and throws a spanner in the works. The vast majority of Kett we see in ME:A don't seem to be doing anything, they are just standing around waiting to be shot at, yet we are supposed to believe that they are a highly ordered, disciplined military force acting with unified purpose.... They fair no better off camera... This, is perhaps the Archons greatest failing, he has noting to back up his bravado, his forces are a joke who literally die in their thousands to a 20-something with next to no military training! The Geth, the Collectors, the Reapers, even Cerberus, were credible on and off camera, dangerous, terrifying and well capable of inflicting grave harm. Not to mention that Saren, Benezia, Sovereign and Harbinger were all dangerous in their own right, the latter two capable of rending whole fleets of war ships to scrap. Archon has next to nothing going for him in terms of being a strong antagonist. I certainly didn't think Cerberus had clear motivations or even credible technological capabilities relative to their stated origins. In fact they seemed to be able to do whatever the plot required of them at any given moment whether that made sense or not. And I'm sorry but Benezia and Harbinger were no where near as developed as Saren or Sovereign. We must have played a different OT.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2017 14:22:56 GMT
To me he served reasonably well as a mid-level annoyance along with the rest of the Kett to provide a smokescreen from the real, more interesting & intricate enemy, the Remnant. I've liked the final battle though, and the hint that simply plugging into the Remnant tech is going to backfire. I am looking forward to more kett story, and also to the new forces that will oppose the Initiative in Helius Cluster and beyond.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jul 28, 2017 14:25:28 GMT
They are bad people from my perspective but they aren't evil for the sake of being evil. They're just evil for an unknown reason until we find out later that they aren't evil at all and are just mindless drones....... ok. I picked success simply because of how evil he looks and acts. Is he one dimensional? Yeah but most antagonists are at least in games and movies. Books it's easier to write the motivations and such than it is here. Yeah that's why I picked success too because he very nearly does beat us on quite a few occasions as well. Let's not forget that Ryder does technically have to commit suicide by letting SAM kill them to escape the Archon's trap and then again when the Archon takes control of SAM and renders what he thinks the pathfinder helpless which in truth he nearly does. At the end of the day I feel the reason why we do manage to win in the end is because the Archon underestimated Ryder's drive and resourcefulness to beat him. Also had the Kett ran with the Moshae and not decided to hang around to try to hold Ryder off Ryder would never be able to rescue her during that quest.
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Post by link2twenty on Jul 28, 2017 14:27:07 GMT
more interesting & intricate enemy, the Remnant. I didn't really consider the Remnant as an enemy/villain more like an obstacle due to the lack of malice. Interesting take though 🤔
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2017 14:32:30 GMT
more interesting & intricate enemy, the Remnant. I didn't really consider the Remnant as an enemy/villain more like an obstacle due to the lack of malice. Interesting take though 🤔 It has a lack of malice atm because it is unknowable. But it is by the look of it a self-procreating construct build by someone to expand to the areas of the cosmos where the live organisms cannot travel, come on the site, and build a habitat and an organic race from a genetic blueprint from scratch. It is obvious that someone (not unlike Shepard who blew up the harvesting and reseeding cycle set up to preserve the lifecycle in the galaxy) did not think that this creation mechanism is a Good Thing, so Scourge was created to devour their installations & mess up their project. All their installations are resisting tempering/penetration by either Ryder or Kett, and the ancient Angara AI was not a friendly piece of code either. We also do not know if the Remtch is not unlike the Ring in the LOTR, it grants powers to the user, but it only serves one master, and who that master is... unknowable.
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Post by kino on Jul 28, 2017 14:32:53 GMT
I found the Archon fairly interesting, but in the end the feeling I got was that he wasn't the main villain. If that's the what the story was leading up to, then well done. If he is the main villain then it wasn't fleshed out very well. For a being genetically superior to everything else in the cluster it never really showed.
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Post by bigbad on Jul 28, 2017 14:34:13 GMT
In lieu of having a well-written, believable character, a villain should at least be fun to hate. The Archon certainly failed in that regard, IMO.
So did what's-his-face in DA:I. I just never cared about either villain at all.
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Post by shechinah on Jul 28, 2017 14:37:47 GMT
The Archon wasn't developed enough to be interesting. The first time I saw him, after Alex restarted the vault on Habitat 7, I thought he looked a little melancholy and more like a lost puppy than a bad ass antagonist. I hope in the next game we get someone to fear and hate. I had more feeling about Cardinal than the Archon. IDK if she had more screen time or just better lines. But the Archon just hammered on about how Ryder couldn't win against him but didn't really do anything. I thought the Primus was the more interesting between her and the Archon going by the conversation at the end of Dissension in the Ranks mission. I thought the Archon was interesting in the beginning but that kind of petered out. I think it was part lack of interactions and part his motivation seeming generic unlike that of the Primus. His fascination with Ryder because of a mistaken identity could have been interesting to explore especially given how the kett view what they do to other races and that they don't consider themselves to be evil. I would have liked it if the relationship between the two really explored the Blue and Orange morality that the kett seem to have. To us, the Archon's methods and goal would be nightmare fuel but to the Archon and his forces, it's for altruistic purposes and unlike the Reapers, he could have acted polite and friendly. It'd have created a striking contrast between his demeanor and his goal as well as methods. I also think it would have been much more interested if the kett had deceived the Initiative similar to how the kett deceived the angara: by pretending to be friendly. In return, the angara would seem the hostile race because most of them are caught up in fighting the kett and so the Roekaar are the angara the Initiative mostly encounters. It would only be revealed later on in the game that the kett are the bad guys. It could also have presented a nice opportunity for interactions with the Archon (playing nicely with his unintimidating appearance) and even the chance of a kett squadmate. Said squadmate would join the kett after the twist has been revealed and the kett become villains. Jaal would then have taken the kett squadmate's place on the team. That said, a subversion of the Beauty Equals Goodness trope would have been preferable.
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Post by ozzie on Jul 28, 2017 14:48:35 GMT
I certainly didn't think Cerberus had clear motivations or even credible technological capabilities relative to their stated origins. In fact they seemed to be able to do whatever the plot required of them at any given moment whether that made sense or not. And I'm sorry but Benezia and Harbinger were no where near as developed as Saren or Sovereign. We must have played a different OT. I think we have a bit of a miscommunication, when I say credible I mean credible as an antagonist, you can imagine that without your intervention they would be succeeding at what they are doing. Their appearance always has a purpose and they are outfitted appropriately to fulfil that purpose. Examples being the slaughter on Mars (android infiltrator), the assault on the Salarian R&D base (jump packs and shuttles), the rounding up of civilians at Gateway(stun batons). I'm never left thinking, why are you here? How did you expect to win? What are your goals? I'm not going to pretend that I don't have any problems with Lazarus, the construction of the N2 or TIM's overarching plans, but Cerberus, like the Geth and Collectors, while fulfilling the same role at the Kett 'Cannon Fodder' appear in the game as a credible fighting force with purpose that you can believe are a threat... the Kett no so much. And I have no idea what your second point is referencing, is it from someone elses post?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2017 15:06:34 GMT
That's all very subjective as I didn't feel that the Collectors being evil just for the sake of it is understandable seeing as how they were the main antagonist of ME2, not the Reapers. I'm not sure why people are so hell bent on claiming that MEA is so much worse than the OT with regards to villains when you hardly had decent antagonists in the OT. I'd rather have the Archon than Benezia or Harbinger or Kai Leng. An antagonist is only as strong as the threat he presents, and the enemies in MET were at least credible. Their technological capabilities, their military doctrines and their motivations all stacked up, the Kett are a mess in that respect. Whenever we see Cerberus, the Collectors or Geth in action they are always acting with purpose, carrying out a mission, usually with a high level of efficiency and brutal maleficence until the hero shows up and throws a spanner in the works. The vast majority of Kett we see in ME:A don't seem to be doing anything, they are just standing around waiting to be shot at, yet we are supposed to believe that they are a highly ordered, disciplined military force acting with unified purpose.... They fair no better off camera... This, is perhaps the Archons greatest failing, he has noting to back up his bravado, his forces are a joke who literally die in their thousands to a 20-something with next to no military training! The Geth, the Collectors, the Reapers, even Cerberus, were credible on and off camera, dangerous, terrifying and well capable of inflicting grave harm. Not to mention that Saren, Benezia, Sovereign and Harbinger were all dangerous in their own right, the latter two capable of rending whole fleets of war ships to scrap. Archon has next to nothing going for him in terms of being a strong antagonist. I really think the same could be said about the hoards of Cerberus "huskified" foot soldiers we encounter in ME3, the loads of mercs we face in ME2, and the mercs, husks and random geth we encounter on the various side-mission planets in ME1. I think what makes it seem "more" in ME:A is that move to a longer open-world game with at least 209 side quests against a total of 8 priority ops missions (as listed in the Wiki). Now, some of those side missions are either/or scenarios that border on priority ops (that is you have to do one or another to advance) and others are more complex side missions, but that still leaves a higher percentage of missions that are not integral to the main story than in the previous Mass Effect games. Personally, I never found Saren that compelling a villain... made even weaker by the fact that he can pretty readily be talked into committing suicide. Ditto with TIM. At least the Archon doesn't cave in and off himself just because Ryder "charms" him into losing confidence in his cause.
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haolyn
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Post by haolyn on Jul 28, 2017 15:15:57 GMT
I certainly didn't think Cerberus had clear motivations or even credible technological capabilities relative to their stated origins. In fact they seemed to be able to do whatever the plot required of them at any given moment whether that made sense or not. And I'm sorry but Benezia and Harbinger were no where near as developed as Saren or Sovereign. We must have played a different OT. I think we have a bit of a miscommunication, when I say credible I mean credible as an antagonist, you can imagine that without your intervention they would be succeeding at what they are doing. Their appearance always has a purpose and they are outfitted appropriately to fulfil that purpose. Examples being the slaughter on Mars (android infiltrator), the assault on the Salarian R&D base (jump packs and shuttles), the rounding up of civilians at Gateway(stun batons). I'm never left thinking, why are you here? How did you expect to win? What are your goals? I'm not going to pretend that I don't have any problems with Lazarus, the construction of the N2 or TIM's overarching plans, but Cerberus, like the Geth and Collectors, while fulfilling the same role at the Kett 'Cannon Fodder' appear in the game as a credible fighting force with purpose that you can believe are a threat... the Kett no so much. And I have no idea what your second point is referencing, is it from someone elses post? Really? Cerberus is credible to you? Okay. What are Cerberus' motivations then? How did attacking Sur'Kesh advance their goals? Or staging the coup on the Citadel? Where are they getting all their foot soldiers and advanced weaponry that rival the forces of the entire intergalactic defense force? If you're gonna handwave that away with "reaper tech" then why doesn't anyone else have the capability to process this reaper tech into infinite war assets?
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ozzie
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Post by ozzie on Jul 28, 2017 15:44:22 GMT
I think we have a bit of a miscommunication, when I say credible I mean credible as an antagonist, you can imagine that without your intervention they would be succeeding at what they are doing. Their appearance always has a purpose and they are outfitted appropriately to fulfil that purpose. Examples being the slaughter on Mars (android infiltrator), the assault on the Salarian R&D base (jump packs and shuttles), the rounding up of civilians at Gateway(stun batons). I'm never left thinking, why are you here? How did you expect to win? What are your goals? I'm not going to pretend that I don't have any problems with Lazarus, the construction of the N2 or TIM's overarching plans, but Cerberus, like the Geth and Collectors, while fulfilling the same role at the Kett 'Cannon Fodder' appear in the game as a credible fighting force with purpose that you can believe are a threat... the Kett no so much. And I have no idea what your second point is referencing, is it from someone elses post? Really? Cerberus is credible to you? Okay. What are Cerberus' motivations then? How did attacking Sur'Kesh advance their goals? Or staging the coup on the Citadel? Where are they getting all their foot soldiers and advanced weaponry that rival the forces of the entire intergalactic defense force? If you're gonna handwave that away with "reaper tech" then why doesn't anyone else have the capability to process this reaper tech into infinite war assets? They were there for the Krogan female and it is credible that they would have managed to either take or kill it without your intervention... Do I have to belabour the point that I'm talking about credibility as an enemy and not the wider ME3 TIM/Cerberus plot, which I will restate I have plenty problem with! As for their weaponry and actual number, I don't think it was ever implied that they had an inexhaustible supply of foot soldiers (but we don't really know how many captives they managed to indoctrinate) or that they would be a match in a stand up fight with system defence forces, they generally appeared as hit and run attacks and were never portrayed as an army that had the ability to take and hold large swathes of empire as the Kett are.
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