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Post by colfoley on Jul 29, 2017 20:03:22 GMT
It's really interesting to see how many see him as a failure yet loved Saren who had just as much if not less screen time. IMO the Archon whims not necessarily scary was more interesting and mysterious. as some have pointed out getting saren to shoot himself adds a lot of sympathy. He may be a bastard but he is a tragic one. That and the conversation on Virmire gave us his motivations. While crazy they did make sense. AND he had a personal connection to one of the main characters which gave us extra reason to stomp his face in.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 29, 2017 22:22:38 GMT
It's really interesting to see how many see him as a failure yet loved Saren who had just as much if not less screen time. IMO the Archon whims not necessarily scary was more interesting and mysterious. as some have pointed out getting saren to shoot himself adds a lot of sympathy. He may be a bastard but he is a tragic one. That and the conversation on Virmire gave us his motivations. While crazy they did make sense. AND he had a personal connection to one of the main characters which gave us extra reason to stomp his face in. I do agree with that.
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Post by mannyray on Jul 30, 2017 1:37:28 GMT
The Kett are the Borg.
The Collectors are the Borg, sort of as well.
The Reapers and Geth (especially the Geth) are the Cylons. As said above the villains were pretty cookie cutter in the ME series, although I think they put in the least amount of effort with the Kett. They would seem less of a Borg ripoff if we got the beginnings of why they reproduce through exaltation. Were they dying out centuries ago? How did go from a questionable way to perpetuate their species to galactic conquest? The most cardboardy of cardboard villains in this franchise for sure.
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Post by 10k on Jul 30, 2017 2:14:23 GMT
I'd say a failure. Come to think of it I can't even remember what the Archon's Motivations were, or why the kett were in Andromeda in the first place. Easily forgettable.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 30, 2017 2:28:06 GMT
The Kett are the Borg. The Collectors are the Borg, sort of as well. The Reapers and Geth (especially the Geth) are the Cylons. As said above the villains were pretty cookie cutter in the ME series, although I think they put in the least amount of effort with the Kett. They would seem less of a Borg ripoff if we got the beginnings of why they reproduce through exaltation. Were they dying out centuries ago? How did go from a questionable way to perpetuate their species to galactic conquest? The most cardboardy of cardboard villains in this franchise for sure. Yeah no on all counts.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 30, 2017 3:57:25 GMT
The Kett are the Borg. The Collectors are the Borg, sort of as well. The Reapers and Geth (especially the Geth) are the Cylons. As said above the villains were pretty cookie cutter in the ME series, although I think they put in the least amount of effort with the Kett. They would seem less of a Borg ripoff if we got the beginnings of why they reproduce through exaltation. Were they dying out centuries ago? How did go from a questionable way to perpetuate their species to galactic conquest? The most cardboardy of cardboard villains in this franchise for sure. the kett will.likely be expanded in future installments of the franchise.
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Post by SKAR on Jul 30, 2017 4:57:50 GMT
He was intimidating but he could have been so much more. He wasn't like saren. Still, I liked the archon but he had the potential to be a kickass bad guy. I was expecting somethin like khan from star trek or darth vader.
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Post by mannyray on Jul 30, 2017 5:34:54 GMT
The Kett are the Borg. The Collectors are the Borg, sort of as well. The Reapers and Geth (especially the Geth) are the Cylons. As said above the villains were pretty cookie cutter in the ME series, although I think they put in the least amount of effort with the Kett. They would seem less of a Borg ripoff if we got the beginnings of why they reproduce through exaltation. Were they dying out centuries ago? How did go from a questionable way to perpetuate their species to galactic conquest? The most cardboardy of cardboard villains in this franchise for sure. Yeah no on all counts. Because?
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Post by mannyray on Jul 30, 2017 5:39:11 GMT
The Kett are the Borg. The Collectors are the Borg, sort of as well. The Reapers and Geth (especially the Geth) are the Cylons. As said above the villains were pretty cookie cutter in the ME series, although I think they put in the least amount of effort with the Kett. They would seem less of a Borg ripoff if we got the beginnings of why they reproduce through exaltation. Were they dying out centuries ago? How did go from a questionable way to perpetuate their species to galactic conquest? The most cardboardy of cardboard villains in this franchise for sure. the kett will.likely be expanded in future installments of the franchise. I sincerely hope so, there could be some fertile ground there, but I just feel the Archon was a phoned in character, even compared with other enemies in the ME series. The Geth were pretty dry, but we at least had their origins as barely sentient slave labor created by the Quarians to give them some context. I wish some of the dialogue or text picked up from data pads, consoles, etc. would have given more hints as to why the Kett are what they are, if not from the Archon himself. The only tantalizing glimpse into them we got is that the Archon was possibly going rogue and got power hungry when he saw what the vaults can do.
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Post by cypherj on Jul 30, 2017 11:59:18 GMT
It's really interesting to see how many see him as a failure yet loved Saren who had just as much if not less screen time. IMO the Archon whims not necessarily scary was more interesting and mysterious. Saren was a far better written than the Archon, and he was more integral to the story. He was actually an antagonist who you hated, and he was one step ahead of you all game. You wanted to bring him down. He commits a murder on Eden Prime, and then when you go to the council knowing he's dirty you have no proof, and he's sitting there bold faced lying and gets away. Then by the time you get the evidence, he's gotten away and you're one step behind him all game. He gets the cipher right before you, makes it to Ilos right before you, and then succeeds in his plan to drop the Citadel defenses. I hated Saren and actually wanted to beat him. But even as much as he's frustrating you, on Virmire you actually start feeling sorry for him because he actually thinks he's doing the right thing, and has no idea he's indoctrinated. Finally, you allow him to break free from indoctrination long enough to go out on his own terms rather than continue being a puppet. The Archon on the other hand never offers you any setbacks until the very end of the game, and he is not really a part of the story at all. In the scenes where you do see him like before Aya, or on his ship, you could replace him with some generic Kett Commander like the one at the exaltation facility on Voeld and those scenes would play out exactly the same. All he's doing is threatening you, telling you they're superior, anyone can do that. Imagine if you found the vault first on Voeld, and then the Kett arrived, truly first contact, and they overran your recon team, your dad dies making sure you get out. Or if there was a planet that wasn't as badly hit by the scourge, and the Archon beat you there or outsmarted you preventing you starting a colony. Now you have a reason to hate and/or fear the Archon, he would now actually be an antagonist. But he never gives you a reason to hate him, and since the Kett, in general, are portrayed so poorly, you have no reason to fear him. I need one of those two things in order to care about the villain. People have been talking about Loghain, he left you to die at Ostagar, and then pinned the whole thing on you and tried to have you killed. That was enough for me to be counting the moments until we crossed paths again. Every time I saw him in a cutscene, I was like I'm wanna kill the dude. Honestly, I had more feelings towards Arl Howe than I did the Archon because he was responsible for my family getting killed. There was never a point in ME:A where I cared one way or the other about the Archon, he was kind of just there.
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Post by Heimdall on Jul 30, 2017 13:39:56 GMT
It's really interesting to see how many see him as a failure yet loved Saren who had just as much if not less screen time. IMO the Archon whims not necessarily scary was more interesting and mysterious. Except there's nothing behind the mystery. All we ever learn about the Archon is that he's obsessed with the Remnant. It never even becomes all that clear why or what he ultimately hopes to accomplish by harnessing it. Saren had clear motivations and they established him as someone we should be worried about early on by having him attack Eden Prime and kill Nihlus. Imagine if the Archon had actually been responsible for the initial damage to the Hyperion and personally killed Alec instead of having him die as an indirect result of the Remant machine malfunctioning, that's the difference between him and Saren. While mysterious, the Archon has no substance and they did not build up his threat very well.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2017 13:57:31 GMT
It's really interesting to see how many see him as a failure yet loved Saren who had just as much if not less screen time. IMO the Archon whims not necessarily scary was more interesting and mysterious. Except there's nothing behind the mystery. All we ever learn about the Archon is that he's obsessed with the Remnant. It never even becomes all that clear why or what he ultimately hopes to accomplish by harnessing it. Saren had clear motivations and they established him as someone we should be worried about early on by having him attack Eden Prime and kill Nihlus. Imagine if the Archon had actually been responsible for the initial damage to the Hyperion and personally killed Alec instead of having him die as an indirect result of the Remant machine malfunctioning, that's the difference between him and Saren. While mysterious, the Archon has no substance and they did not build up his threat very well. It's kind of clear. I mean you could miss it because it's presented in a way that it's more like a raving madman who wants to take action for power. But at the end, the sibling does say IIRC that he will destroy everything if people don't submit or something like that I think. When you deal with him for the final battle, what is revealed is that he will destroy worlds and the reason why which is very briefly addressed is more of a threat actually. Everyone must submit (to exaltation I presume) or he will destroy worlds. My thought was that burnout of helius is his motivation. I wonder if he has ever been in charge of exalting a cluster? That he's been there 80 years seems to frustrate him. Understandable, but then again, did he expect everyone to just rollover and die. To me, this might be one of the more revealing things about the kett. They are dealing with a race that was barely recovered from the scourge, so not really in the best shape to put up a great fight, and he's losing it because he wants to get it over with. He's been screwing around with remnant for god knows how long because of this, presumably, and again, angara were pretty ripe for picking. I can only imagine how long it would take to exalt other clusters with more evolved species. Or perhaps they don't exalt evolved species. Or he's not done this before. I think of the reapers and I think it was stated that it takes hundreds of years for them to complete a cycle. And they are uber efficient AI, thousands of them, with indoctrinated disciples doing their bidding as well. I would think it would take a moderately advanced race like the kett far longer which creates more questions than it answers but it does give some insight into them, maybe. Not much but something to work with. Really, it would not have taken much to elaborate on any of it. The whole thing has a very rushed feel to it, one where they probably didn't even know the answers themselves during the writing or else they could have added some more details to it.
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Post by Heimdall on Jul 30, 2017 14:06:10 GMT
Except there's nothing behind the mystery. All we ever learn about the Archon is that he's obsessed with the Remnant. It never even becomes all that clear why or what he ultimately hopes to accomplish by harnessing it. Saren had clear motivations and they established him as someone we should be worried about early on by having him attack Eden Prime and kill Nihlus. Imagine if the Archon had actually been responsible for the initial damage to the Hyperion and personally killed Alec instead of having him die as an indirect result of the Remant machine malfunctioning, that's the difference between him and Saren. While mysterious, the Archon has no substance and they did not build up his threat very well. It's kind of clear. I mean you could miss it because it's presented in a way that it's more like a raving madman who wants to take action for power. But at the end, the sibling does say IIRC that he will destroy everything if people don't submit or something like that I think. When you deal with him for the final battle, what is revealed is that he will destroy worlds and the reason why which is very briefly addressed is more of a threat actually. Everyone must submit (to exaltation I presume) or he will destroy worlds. My thought was that burnout of helius is his motivation. I wonder if he has ever been in charge of exalting a cluster? That he's been there 80 years seems to frustrate him. Understandable, but then again, did he expect everyone to just rollover and die. To me, this might be one of the more revealing things about the kett. They are dealing with a race that was barely recovered from the scourge, so not really in the best shape to put up a great fight, and he's losing it because he wants to get it over with. He's been screwing around with remnant for god knows how long because of this, presumably, and again, angara were pretty ripe for picking. I can only imagine how long it would take to exalt other clusters with more evolved species. Or perhaps they don't exalt evolved species. Or he's not done this before. I think of the reapers and I think it was stated that it takes hundreds of years for them to complete a cycle. And they are uber efficient AI, thousands of them, with indoctrinated disciples doing their bidding as well. I would think it would take a moderately advanced race like the kett far longer which creates more questions than it answers but it does give some insight into them, maybe. Not much but something to work with. Really, it would not have taken much to elaborate on any of it. The whole thing has a very rushed feel to it, one where they probably didn't even know the answers themselves during the writing or else they could have added some more details to it. None of that is compelling though. With Saren, he was written in such a way that you could see how he saw himself as a hero in his own story. The Kett are just Borg and the Archon was just nakedly evil, desiring to conquer the cluster to assimilate the species. That's just boring. With this motivation he's basically just a standard cartoon villain. That can work, if he's threatening enough that the protagonist's journey to defeat him feels compelling, but they failed to do that effectively.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2017 14:28:36 GMT
It's kind of clear. I mean you could miss it because it's presented in a way that it's more like a raving madman who wants to take action for power. But at the end, the sibling does say IIRC that he will destroy everything if people don't submit or something like that I think. When you deal with him for the final battle, what is revealed is that he will destroy worlds and the reason why which is very briefly addressed is more of a threat actually. Everyone must submit (to exaltation I presume) or he will destroy worlds. My thought was that burnout of helius is his motivation. I wonder if he has ever been in charge of exalting a cluster? That he's been there 80 years seems to frustrate him. Understandable, but then again, did he expect everyone to just rollover and die. To me, this might be one of the more revealing things about the kett. They are dealing with a race that was barely recovered from the scourge, so not really in the best shape to put up a great fight, and he's losing it because he wants to get it over with. He's been screwing around with remnant for god knows how long because of this, presumably, and again, angara were pretty ripe for picking. I can only imagine how long it would take to exalt other clusters with more evolved species. Or perhaps they don't exalt evolved species. Or he's not done this before. I think of the reapers and I think it was stated that it takes hundreds of years for them to complete a cycle. And they are uber efficient AI, thousands of them, with indoctrinated disciples doing their bidding as well. I would think it would take a moderately advanced race like the kett far longer which creates more questions than it answers but it does give some insight into them, maybe. Not much but something to work with. Really, it would not have taken much to elaborate on any of it. The whole thing has a very rushed feel to it, one where they probably didn't even know the answers themselves during the writing or else they could have added some more details to it. None of that is compelling though. With Saren, he was written in such a way that you could see how he saw himself as a hero in his own story. The Kett are just Borg and the Archon was just nakedly evil, desiring to conquer the cluster to assimilate the species. That's just boring. With this motivation he's basically just a standard cartoon villain. That can work, if he's threatening enough that the protagonist's journey to defeat him feels compelling, but they failed to do that effectively. Oh absolutely agreed. I was just clarifying why he had his hissy fit trash talk session as you mentioned you weren't sure. And sadly it wasn't really made clear. Also agreed that saren was much better written. I also mentioned loghain in a post I made in this thread as well. Two great villains. I still enjoy the game, but I find the archon not very compelling. Of course, I am the kind of person that likes a lot of depth in my characters and especially villains. The kett have potential to be much more. I've played around with it in my thoughts and come up with some different scenarios where they would be more interesting - like if they were dying out and began exalting in an attempt to find genes that could keep them from dying out (if it was some sort of genetic issue which interestingly stemmed from the fact that they were created by the jaadan as well, but the jaadan didn't get them quite right). Any idea I have thought always starts out with them not being set out on domination but more that they started out trying to solve some issue they had and over time this is who they became. One idea I had started out with them doing this to save another species that was the one who had the genetic flaws or could no longer procreate, and that both races benefited from exaltation, so much that they began to look for other races who wanted to be exalted as well and of course, over time it evolved into less 'willing' participation to completely forced. Those ideas I think make them more interesting, but yes they are ultimately still borg knockoffs. However, how they got there could be a fascinating story to tell and even more so if there were kett who passed on stories of how they began and who they used to be, the better version of themselves, and those kett wanted to go back to that - having a resistance movement within the kett that were against what they are doing and want to see it stop. They still have some interesting potential, but I don't know if BW will even bother to try to make them more compelling. The Reapers turned out to be far less compelling than many had hoped. So I'm not sure if I should hold out hope that kett will be revealed as more complex or just remain shells of a race ripped from star trek.
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Post by Guts on Jul 30, 2017 16:27:48 GMT
Archon was a moron. It is time Bioware gets real writers that create real enemies and stop with the same moronic enemies in all the games they make. Mac Walters was just an incompetent director. Plain and simple.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 30, 2017 17:53:43 GMT
Because? First off every Gillian in nearly every medium can be compared to another if you try hard enough. If any villain would be remotely comparable to the Borg it's the Reapers themselves. If you are simply comparing them because they "assimilate" other cultures that's not enough. First off the Borg did so to make themselves stronger. The Kett's true motivation is still unknown. One reason I like them is imo they are unknown like the Reapers originally were. There is much more to explore with them. As for the Cylons I don't see that comparison at all even if your talking about the Original ones.
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Post by Heimdall on Jul 30, 2017 18:08:20 GMT
Because? First off every Gillian in nearly every medium can be compared to another if you try hard enough. If any villain would be remotely comparable to the Borg it's the Reapers themselves. If you are simply comparing them because they "assimilate" other cultures that's not enough. First off the Borg did so to make themselves stronger. The Kett's true motivation is still unknown. One reason I like them is imo they are unknown like the Reapers originally were. There is much more to explore with them. As for the Cylons I don't see that comparison at all even if your talking about the Original ones. The Reapers weren't really that interesting. Or rather, the scale of their threat was what made them work as villains. We know the Reapers created husks to help them destroy us. We know they have a track record of wiping out entire galactic civilizations, they are hellbent on our destruction. We know that they built the technology we rely on specifically so we would rely on it. All that threat makes the journey to find a way to defeat them interesting. The Kett convert other species for poorly explained religious reasons, the Archon wants to seize control of technology we actually have better control of than him, and how threatening they are as a species isn't very well represented, except that they've failed to conquer one they've had on the ropes for decades. It's like the writers wanted to rehash part of the Reaper threat without what actually made them intimidating. The Archon ends up coming across as bumbling. It's not that the Kett don't have potential, but they were handled quite poorly.
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Post by Loffie on Jul 30, 2017 18:28:56 GMT
Archon failed because there was no
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 30, 2017 19:10:47 GMT
First off every Gillian in nearly every medium can be compared to another if you try hard enough. If any villain would be remotely comparable to the Borg it's the Reapers themselves. If you are simply comparing them because they "assimilate" other cultures that's not enough. First off the Borg did so to make themselves stronger. The Kett's true motivation is still unknown. One reason I like them is imo they are unknown like the Reapers originally were. There is much more to explore with them. As for the Cylons I don't see that comparison at all even if your talking about the Original ones. The Reapers weren't really that interesting. Or rather, the scale of their threat was what made them work as villains. We know the Reapers created husks to help them destroy us. We know they have a track record of wiping out entire galactic civilizations, they are hellbent on our destruction. We know that they built the technology we rely on specifically so we would rely on it. All that threat makes the journey to find a way to defeat them interesting. The Kett convert other species for poorly explained religious reasons, the Archon wants to seize control of technology we actually have better control of than him, and how threatening they are as a species isn't very well represented, except that they've failed to conquer one they've had on the ropes for decades. It's like the writers wanted to rehash part of the Reaper threat without what actually made them intimidating. The Archon ends up coming across as bumbling. It's not that the Kett don't have potential, but they were handled quite poorly. We know that over the course of three games. They and their motives were very much a mystery in the first game. I don't get how you people are judging this game and the antagonist, with an entire trilogy.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jul 30, 2017 19:59:26 GMT
I'd say a failure. Come to think of it I can't even remember what the Archon's Motivations were, or why the kett were in Andromeda in the first place. Easily forgettable. The Archon wants to exalt the whole cluster with the Remnant and those that he can't or won't exalt he will destroy.
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Cyberstrike
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jul 30, 2017 20:10:49 GMT
Anyways The other thing which bothered me about the Archon was the lack of motivation. Which came from his lack.of screen time. Why i liked Corypheus so much is at least he had motivations a Character arc and implied back story. This gave his actions in inquisition weight. They flowed from.his internal desires. The problem is we never got that with the Archon. We knew he wanted to exalt Heleus we knew he wanted to use Rem Tech to achieve these goals. But we never got any sense of why either thing was important to him. Primus states that the Archon is a traitor because of his obsession with the Remnant and his refusal to report back to Kett Empire beyond the Heleus Cluster.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 30, 2017 20:19:26 GMT
Anyways The other thing which bothered me about the Archon was the lack of motivation. Which came from his lack.of screen time. Why i liked Corypheus so much is at least he had motivations a Character arc and implied back story. This gave his actions in inquisition weight. They flowed from.his internal desires. The problem is we never got that with the Archon. We knew he wanted to exalt Heleus we knew he wanted to use Rem Tech to achieve these goals. But we never got any sense of why either thing was important to him. Primus states that the Archon is a traitor because of his obsession with the Remnant and his refusal to report back to Kett Empire beyond the Heleus Cluster. I'm curious as to where the Kett homeworld is. Is it in Andromeda somewhere who knows? Hope we get to find out.
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Post by mannyray on Jul 30, 2017 20:50:46 GMT
Because? First off every Gillian in nearly every medium can be compared to another if you try hard enough. If any villain would be remotely comparable to the Borg it's the Reapers themselves. If you are simply comparing them because they "assimilate" other cultures that's not enough. First off the Borg did so to make themselves stronger. The Kett's true motivation is still unknown. One reason I like them is imo they are unknown like the Reapers originally were. There is much more to explore with them. As for the Cylons I don't see that comparison at all even if your talking about the Original ones. The Cylon comparison refers to the 2000's remake. I'm GINO and proud . And the Kett do assimilate to grow stronger. reproduction through siphoning genetic traits from other beings and exalting them is a way to "grow stronger." It's in the game's dialogue. Beyond that sure, there's stuff to explore with them but really they're cardboard cutouts with a mystery that's hard to care about since they're not very compelling villians at this point. As a player my eye is on whatever put the scourge out there. The bumbling Archon is just meh.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 30, 2017 21:17:17 GMT
It's kind of clear. I mean you could miss it because it's presented in a way that it's more like a raving madman who wants to take action for power. But at the end, the sibling does say IIRC that he will destroy everything if people don't submit or something like that I think. When you deal with him for the final battle, what is revealed is that he will destroy worlds and the reason why which is very briefly addressed is more of a threat actually. Everyone must submit (to exaltation I presume) or he will destroy worlds. My thought was that burnout of helius is his motivation. I wonder if he has ever been in charge of exalting a cluster? That he's been there 80 years seems to frustrate him. Understandable, but then again, did he expect everyone to just rollover and die. To me, this might be one of the more revealing things about the kett. They are dealing with a race that was barely recovered from the scourge, so not really in the best shape to put up a great fight, and he's losing it because he wants to get it over with. He's been screwing around with remnant for god knows how long because of this, presumably, and again, angara were pretty ripe for picking. I can only imagine how long it would take to exalt other clusters with more evolved species. Or perhaps they don't exalt evolved species. Or he's not done this before. I think of the reapers and I think it was stated that it takes hundreds of years for them to complete a cycle. And they are uber efficient AI, thousands of them, with indoctrinated disciples doing their bidding as well. I would think it would take a moderately advanced race like the kett far longer which creates more questions than it answers but it does give some insight into them, maybe. Not much but something to work with. Really, it would not have taken much to elaborate on any of it. The whole thing has a very rushed feel to it, one where they probably didn't even know the answers themselves during the writing or else they could have added some more details to it. None of that is compelling though. With Saren, he was written in such a way that you could see how he saw himself as a hero in his own story. The Kett are just Borg and the Archon was just nakedly evil, desiring to conquer the cluster to assimilate the species. That's just boring. With this motivation he's basically just a standard cartoon villain. That can work, if he's threatening enough that the protagonist's journey to defeat him feels compelling, but they failed to do that effectively. This The best villains are the ones who take actions which, under different circumstances, you could see yourself doing.
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Post by Guts on Jul 30, 2017 22:17:15 GMT
It's really interesting to see how many see him as a failure yet loved Saren who had just as much if not less screen time. IMO the Archon whims not necessarily scary was more interesting and mysterious. Except there's nothing behind the mystery. All we ever learn about the Archon is that he's obsessed with the Remnant. It never even becomes all that clear why or what he ultimately hopes to accomplish by harnessing it. Saren had clear motivations and they established him as someone we should be worried about early on by having him attack Eden Prime and kill Nihlus. Imagine if the Archon had actually been responsible for the initial damage to the Hyperion and personally killed Alec instead of having him die as an indirect result of the Remant machine malfunctioning, that's the difference between him and Saren. While mysterious, the Archon has no substance and they did not build up his threat very well. I thought the way the Archon was introduced was rather interesting, but after that, he was just generic and forgettable.
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