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Post by colfoley on Jul 30, 2017 23:13:28 GMT
Minor annoyance and this is strictly in the realm of opinion granted. But the kett aren't borg. Try the Yuuzhan vong or the Skitters. Maybe even a dash of magog.
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Post by Steelcan on Jul 31, 2017 2:35:57 GMT
I always had them as the bargain brand version of the Covenant
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2017 2:36:28 GMT
The Reapers weren't really that interesting. Or rather, the scale of their threat was what made them work as villains. We know the Reapers created husks to help them destroy us. We know they have a track record of wiping out entire galactic civilizations, they are hellbent on our destruction. We know that they built the technology we rely on specifically so we would rely on it. All that threat makes the journey to find a way to defeat them interesting. The Kett convert other species for poorly explained religious reasons, the Archon wants to seize control of technology we actually have better control of than him, and how threatening they are as a species isn't very well represented, except that they've failed to conquer one they've had on the ropes for decades. It's like the writers wanted to rehash part of the Reaper threat without what actually made them intimidating. The Archon ends up coming across as bumbling. It's not that the Kett don't have potential, but they were handled quite poorly. We know that over the course of three games. They and their motives were very much a mystery in the first game. I don't get how you people are judging this game and the antagonist, with an entire trilogy. Except everything he stated we learned from Vigil in ME1 so its a fair comparison. It didn't take the span of 3 games as you implied.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 31, 2017 3:15:28 GMT
I always had them as the bargain brand version of the Covenant how so?
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Post by sugarless on Jul 31, 2017 3:54:07 GMT
Why the Archon 'failed' as an enemy: aside from having a somewhat clichéd objective, he looked like a cute insectoid character from Pixar
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Post by Guts on Jul 31, 2017 4:31:49 GMT
Why the Archon 'failed' as an enemy: aside from having a somewhat clichéd objective, he looked like a cute insectoid character from Pixar I can never look at the archon the same way again. Thank you......
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Post by Steelcan on Jul 31, 2017 5:14:12 GMT
I always had them as the bargain brand version of the Covenant how so? Bunch of zealots running around trying to horde the technology of a great ancient civilization, throwing around some religiously inspired terminology
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Post by colfoley on Jul 31, 2017 6:12:03 GMT
Bunch of zealots running around trying to horde the technology of a great ancient civilization, throwing around some religiously inspired terminology ... This sounds like 'The Force Awakens/ A New Hope is the same movie'. And sure we might find out more about the Kett and have their society fleshed out, and that might come to look like the Covenant. We know very little about the Kett versus the Covenant. One game, versus 5 games and some books and stuff. But, there are two distinct differences between the Covenant and the Kett. 1. The Kett aren't very interested in the Remnant, only the Archon is. As far as we know, and is implied by the Primus and the Codex, the Remnant are quite unknown to the Kett. Covenant society, on the other hand, is built entirely on the worship of the Forerunners and they view their technology as a means of their salvation. 2. The Kett's purpose is to 'exalt' all the other species they meet into being them, they view it as a favor. The Covenant have no such forceful conversion. I just find this comparison to be really weird. The only real point of comparison just seems to be that a writer who worked on Halo 4 WAS the lead Writer on Andromeda. Hell if anything the Kett are more like the Flood. With the Archon being Gravemind (so there might be a connection afterall)
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Post by Steelcan on Jul 31, 2017 6:24:36 GMT
Bunch of zealots running around trying to horde the technology of a great ancient civilization, throwing around some religiously inspired terminology ... This sounds like 'The Force Awakens/ A New Hope is the same movie'. And sure we might find out more about the Kett and have their society fleshed out, and that might come to look like the Covenant. We know very little about the Kett versus the Covenant. One game, versus 5 games and some books and stuff. But, there are two distinct differences between the Covenant and the Kett. 1. The Kett aren't very interested in the Remnant, only the Archon is. As far as we know, and is implied by the Primus and the Codex, the Remnant are quite unknown to the Kett. Covenant society, on the other hand, is built entirely on the worship of the Forerunners and they view their technology as a means of their salvation. 2. The Kett's purpose is to 'exalt' all the other species they meet into being them, they view it as a favor. The Covenant have no such forceful conversion. I just find this comparison to be really weird. The only real point of comparison just seems to be that a writer who worked on Halo 4 WAS the lead Writer on Andromeda. Hell if anything the Kett are more like the Flood. With the Archon being Gravemind (so there might be a connection afterall) I didn't say they were a one to one rip off, I said they reminded me of a bargain brand
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 31, 2017 12:04:28 GMT
We know that over the course of three games. They and their motives were very much a mystery in the first game. I don't get how you people are judging this game and the antagonist, with an entire trilogy. Except everything he stated we learned from Vigil in ME1 so its a fair comparison. It didn't take the span of 3 games as you implied. We learned about the Reapers creating the relays from Vigil not the Husks. We didn't learn about that till ME2.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2017 12:18:58 GMT
Except everything he stated we learned from Vigil in ME1 so its a fair comparison. It didn't take the span of 3 games as you implied. We learned about the Reapers creating the relays from Vigil not the Husks. We didn't learn about that till ME2. Though Vigil doesn't talk about the Husk but it is heavily implied by the end of the game with Saren that the Dragon's Teeth were created by the Reapers. Excerpt from the Wiki "When Sovereign "possesses" the implants within Saren's body, the resulting creature strongly resembles a husk, and the Reaper indoctrination effect is similar to the "zombie" nature of husks, which suggests that the dragon's teeth are Reaper technology. A cache of the spikes was found buried on Trebin and had to be excavated by the local research team, but there is no evidence of who put them there or why." His other points still remain valid. ME1 and ME:A should be strongly compared as starting points in the series story wise.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 31, 2017 14:03:49 GMT
We learned about the Reapers creating the relays from Vigil not the Husks. We didn't learn about that till ME2. Though Vigil doesn't talk about the Husk but it is heavily implied by the end of the game with Saren that the Dragon's Teeth were created by the Reapers. Excerpt from the Wiki "When Sovereign "possesses" the implants within Saren's body, the resulting creature strongly resembles a husk, and the Reaper indoctrination effect is similar to the "zombie" nature of husks, which suggests that the dragon's teeth are Reaper technology. A cache of the spikes was found buried on Trebin and had to be excavated by the local research team, but there is no evidence of who put them there or why." His other points still remain valid. ME1 and ME:A should be strongly compared as starting points in the series story wise. When was that written though. Because there is no way that was in the game as after that fight everything is cutscenes and then the choosing the counselor. No way to access the codex.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jul 31, 2017 18:45:57 GMT
Primus states that the Archon is a traitor because of his obsession with the Remnant and his refusal to report back to Kett Empire beyond the Heleus Cluster. I'm curious as to where the Kett homeworld is. Is it in Andromeda somewhere who knows? Hope we get to find out. We do know that there is a Kett Senate, a Kett Homeworld, and a Kett Empire beyond the Heleus Cluster, also the Archon himself states that he has been in Heleus for decades.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 31, 2017 19:09:50 GMT
I'm curious as to where the Kett homeworld is. Is it in Andromeda somewhere who knows? Hope we get to find out. We do know that there is a Kett Senate, a Kett Homeworld, and a Kett Empire beyond the Heleus Cluster, also the Archon himself states that he has been in Heleus for decades. If to the Kett Senate we go, a scenario like this, have we must.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jul 31, 2017 22:29:14 GMT
I like the Archon as a villain. I think there is a dangerous trend in a lot of media to "romanticize" the villain and make him/her less of a villain and while I like those kind of villains as much as the next guy I do miss the "evil just for the sake of being evil" type of villain who is not a tortured misunderstood outcast seeking a misinformed chance at redemption.
S/He is just a heartless and ruthless evil bitching bastard who doesn't give a two shits about who s/he steps on to acquire his/her goals (which are basically to conquer and rule the world/universe).
The Kett leadership reminds me a lot of the original Decepticon leadership from the 80s cartoon show: The Archon is Megatron. Primus (and FTR Primus is the name of the Transformers' God/creator in some of Transformers fiction) is Starscream. Archon's Sword is Soundwave.
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Post by The Joe-Man on Jul 31, 2017 22:49:42 GMT
Why the Archon 'failed' as an enemy: aside from having a somewhat clichéd objective, he looked like a cute insectoid character from Pixar I laughed the first time I saw him. "I'm supposed to be scared of THIS GUY? He looks like a damn baby!"
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Post by griffith82 on Aug 1, 2017 0:52:05 GMT
Why the Archon 'failed' as an enemy: aside from having a somewhat clichéd objective, he looked like a cute insectoid character from Pixar I laughed the first time I saw him. "I'm supposed to be scared of THIS GUY? He looks like a damn baby!" He does look young but his actions are far from young.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 1, 2017 0:58:16 GMT
You know making the Archon a young kett probably would have solved ninety nine percent of his problems.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Aug 1, 2017 1:20:57 GMT
You know making the Archon a young kett probably would have solved ninety nine percent of his problems. Forgive me if I'm forgetting this, but do we know he's not a young Kett? As far as I remember we don't know how old they get to be, so even being in Helius for decades, he might be like an 80 year old Asari. Still very young. I don't have the codex memorized, though.
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Post by griffith82 on Aug 1, 2017 1:43:35 GMT
You know making the Archon a young kett probably would have solved ninety nine percent of his problems. Forgive me if I'm forgetting this, but do we know he's not a young Kett? As far as I remember we don't know how old they get to be, so even being in Helius for decades, he might be like an 80 year old Asari. Still very young. I don't have the codex memorized, though. You know compare the Archon to the Cardinal or Primus. Age difference is noticeable.
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Post by oniangel on Aug 1, 2017 7:13:12 GMT
I think he had some potential. The story had that the Archon could of ruled the system had they not gotten distracted by the Remnant technology. It also foreshadowed that the Kett does have far more forces and this is just a conversion unit sent out to subjugate lesser races with the possibility of a more desperate battle against a very powerful force against full power of the Kett in the future and possibly the enemy of the Remnant designers. While most of the final bosses for MassEffect have kind of had lame fights the one against the Archon could of been more. Should of had more separate battles leading up to fighting him rather than just pew pew tentacles.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 1, 2017 10:20:42 GMT
You know making the Archon a young kett probably would have solved ninety nine percent of his problems. Forgive me if I'm forgetting this, but do we know he's not a young Kett? As far as I remember we don't know how old they get to be, so even being in Helius for decades, he might be like an 80 year old Asari. Still very young. I don't have the codex memorized, though. sure we don't know. But that's part of the problem. It's never explicitly stated. If the Archon was young/ambitious/creative it would have given him easy motivations for his actions in Andromeda. And it would have have been much more interesting if they then made the Primus an older Character. But ah well.
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Aug 1, 2017 13:27:40 GMT
You consider Loghain an inferior antagonist? Well, I'm certainly going to disagree here. The thought that the Archon is somehow better than him just has me shaking my head... But yes, some of the other points you made are valid. Me too, but Colfoley nailed it.
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Aug 1, 2017 13:30:31 GMT
So the Archon. One of the more creative and interesting aspetcs of the game to talk about is his character. He wasn't exactly a great threat, nor a particularily good character. Though, I did personally like him then some bad guys (Loghain, the Archdemon, the Wild Hunt, the Institute), but he was far less then the ideal or the quality of bad guy characters we have come to associate from BioWare. And the fact of the matter is this is not just a problem with BioWare games, per se. Video Games has, at least in my experience, been just plain bad at creating meaningful antagonists. As I mentioned, the Wild Hunt, Loghain, The Institute, the list just goes on and on, and on. Its almost notorious that video games have bad antagonists. The reason for this is obvious, while novels, tv shows, and movies can switch perspectives, and are even encouraged to make the switch. Showing large amounts screentime from the perspective of the antagonists. Getting their perspetive, their backstory, their general information and having a chance to sympathize and bond with the badguys, to an extent. Video games, on the other hand, are discouraged from doing so. As general practice it is discouraged from having gameplay interrupted by large segments of 'getting to know the badguy' scenes or generally cut scenes of any length. Generally speaking however, there have been three great video game antagonists that are worth pointing out. Andrew Ryan, Gaunter O'Dimm (probably my favorite video game antagonist actualy) and the Arishock. Andrew Ryan, who was Rapture. We had little information about him in the game, but he tied up himself in his city. Hence, we knew a lot about him through our explorations of Rapture. Gaunter O'Dimm: He was just so creepy, and so atmopheric. He was a big threat and a big mystery which drew one in. But its the Arishock, the Arishock is where I think the potential lies for great bad guys for the future. Not just because he is one of BioWare's creations, but because he has something worth teling us. Back to TV for an instant, but one of the best shows I have seen (Farscape) had the protagonist and the antagonists having to work together at various points in the narrative. They often went from a point of hating to each other, to having a somewhat of a mutual respect...if nothing else. But for the audience this added layers and nuance to the overall presentation allowing us to get to know these 'bad guys' and find out they had motivations and characters of their own, and understanding tends to be breed sympahty. Video games though tend to take the opposite approach it seems. Instead of forcing antagonists to work together, they have you work for or with your eventual enemy. Like the Arishock, for the first part of the game you were working with him, doing errands for him, getting to know him, hearing his point of view...and while I still hate the Qun it gave a unique perspective. Until the moment of crisis I was scrreaming "no!" at my tv when it was finally revealed that he was a bad guy, and the situation devolved to the breaking point. And the Arishock is not alone. Detlaff from the Witcher and the Illusive Man from Mass Effect also fal under this category. Because, as you get to know these bad guys you hear their perspective, and that breeds eventual sympathy with them. You know of them, and it gives the player a chance to view these characters as more then one dimensional mustache twirlers. Imagine how interesting it would have been to spend the first quest or two of Andromeda working with the Archon? That he meets you on EOs and together you figure out how to open the first Remnant Vault? Only to later to discover that he is actualy a very bad man? Food for thought if nothing else. Colfoley, I disagree about Loghain. His writer and voice actor not only made me hate him with a passion, but I learned to forgive and see him in a different light. He was a great adversary that made the Blight look secondary at times. However, you get an A+ for this thread. This is very smart and you nailed the point. Excellent. Thank you.
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Aug 1, 2017 13:31:43 GMT
He looks like a Muppet baby. I couldn't take him seriously. I thought the same thing. lol.
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