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Post by colfoley on Jul 28, 2017 8:26:04 GMT
So the Archon. One of the more creative and interesting aspetcs of the game to talk about is his character. He wasn't exactly a great threat, nor a particularily good character. Though, I did personally like him then some bad guys (Loghain, the Archdemon, the Wild Hunt, the Institute), but he was far less then the ideal or the quality of bad guy characters we have come to associate from BioWare.
And the fact of the matter is this is not just a problem with BioWare games, per se. Video Games has, at least in my experience, been just plain bad at creating meaningful antagonists. As I mentioned, the Wild Hunt, Loghain, The Institute, the list just goes on and on, and on. Its almost notorious that video games have bad antagonists. The reason for this is obvious, while novels, tv shows, and movies can switch perspectives, and are even encouraged to make the switch. Showing large amounts screentime from the perspective of the antagonists. Getting their perspetive, their backstory, their general information and having a chance to sympathize and bond with the badguys, to an extent. Video games, on the other hand, are discouraged from doing so. As general practice it is discouraged from having gameplay interrupted by large segments of 'getting to know the badguy' scenes or generally cut scenes of any length.
Generally speaking however, there have been three great video game antagonists that are worth pointing out. Andrew Ryan, Gaunter O'Dimm (probably my favorite video game antagonist actualy) and the Arishock.
Andrew Ryan, who was Rapture. We had little information about him in the game, but he tied up himself in his city. Hence, we knew a lot about him through our explorations of Rapture.
Gaunter O'Dimm: He was just so creepy, and so atmopheric. He was a big threat and a big mystery which drew one in.
But its the Arishock, the Arishock is where I think the potential lies for great bad guys for the future. Not just because he is one of BioWare's creations, but because he has something worth teling us.
Back to TV for an instant, but one of the best shows I have seen (Farscape) had the protagonist and the antagonists having to work together at various points in the narrative. They often went from a point of hating to each other, to having a somewhat of a mutual respect...if nothing else. But for the audience this added layers and nuance to the overall presentation allowing us to get to know these 'bad guys' and find out they had motivations and characters of their own, and understanding tends to be breed sympahty.
Video games though tend to take the opposite approach it seems. Instead of forcing antagonists to work together, they have you work for or with your eventual enemy. Like the Arishock, for the first part of the game you were working with him, doing errands for him, getting to know him, hearing his point of view...and while I still hate the Qun it gave a unique perspective. Until the moment of crisis I was scrreaming "no!" at my tv when it was finally revealed that he was a bad guy, and the situation devolved to the breaking point. And the Arishock is not alone. Detlaff from the Witcher and the Illusive Man from Mass Effect also fal under this category. Because, as you get to know these bad guys you hear their perspective, and that breeds eventual sympathy with them. You know of them, and it gives the player a chance to view these characters as more then one dimensional mustache twirlers.
Imagine how interesting it would have been to spend the first quest or two of Andromeda working with the Archon? That he meets you on EOs and together you figure out how to open the first Remnant Vault? Only to later to discover that he is actualy a very bad man?
Food for thought if nothing else.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 28, 2017 8:44:38 GMT
You consider Loghain an inferior antagonist? Well, I'm certainly going to disagree here. The thought that the Archon is somehow better than him just has me shaking my head... But yes, some of the other points you made are valid. Loghain was a rubbing his hand together and twirling his evil mustache with murdering glee pretty much throughout the entire game, you could practically hear him laughing 'muhahaha'...and then at the end they shoe horned in some half baked back story to try and make us sympathetic to him in the end? No thanks.
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Post by guanxi on Jul 28, 2017 8:46:13 GMT
And the fact of the matter is this is not just a problem with BioWare games, per se. Video Games has, at least in my experience, been just plain bad at creating meaningful antagonists. As I mentioned, the Wild Hunt, Loghain, The Institute, the list just goes on and on, and on. Its almost notorious that video games have bad antagonists. The reason for this is obvious, while novels, tv shows, and movies can switch perspectives, and are even encouraged to make the switch. Showing large amounts screentime from the perspective of the antagonists. Getting their perspetive, their backstory, their general information and having a chance to sympathize and bond with the badguys, to an extent. Video games, on the other hand, are discouraged from doing so. As general practice it is discouraged from having gameplay interrupted by large segments of 'getting to know the badguy' scenes or generally cut scenes of any length. He didn't have enough screen time in general to develop his motivations properly. They could still have had (b-story) scenes from his perspective as Halo 2 did back in 2004, especially if he'd have captured your sibling earlier or even your father as I initially suspected before launch. Saren and the Illusive Man had archs and personalities - they were more than just a prelude to a boss battle or an excuse for combat. You could somewhat relate to them and understand their perspectives which is at the heart of all great villains whereas what you see is what you get with the Archon he has no greater depth or internal conflict beyond his surface appearance whatsoever. I was digging the Archon initially... His first appearance was cool due to his mysteriousness and mysticism but his second appearance on the vidcon in fact from the moment he first opened his mouth the tone of the dialogue was far too campy and so I never took him seriously as a threat and as a result I never felt the stakes rising or felt invested in the story.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jul 28, 2017 9:00:12 GMT
The Archon isn't very good because it mostly comes over as a spoiled child that wants to have its way.
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Post by guanxi on Jul 28, 2017 9:21:46 GMT
Let's not forget Andrew Ryan had a gigantic plot twist. If he was just a bad guy for the sake of being bad and there was no theme being explored he would have been no more interesting than the Archon. 'A man chooses , a slave obeys' & 'would you kindly...' will live in infamy as one of the most memorable moments in popular culture let alone video games.
The Archon should have been a vehicle to deliver exposition about the Kett but he never delivered anything meaningful or memorable about them presumably because we'd learned what precious little there was to know and that's deeply sad state of affairs for a studio formerly known for great storytelling. If they were saving some Andrew Ryan level reveal about the Kett for future games we needed it now not years down the line.
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Post by link2twenty on Jul 28, 2017 9:22:49 GMT
I wish the Archon was running from something bigger and scarier and was just willing to do what ever to save his society, no matter how flawed that society appeared to us. Maybe after beating him, it could tee us up to have a temporary truce with the Kett in MEA2 to face off against the enemy (the same one that chased of the Jardaan).
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Post by haolyn on Jul 28, 2017 9:33:55 GMT
The kett in general would have worked far better for me as antagonists if Bioware focused more on the biology angle: emphasize the fact that they can't reproduce naturally and have the exaltation be some kind of desperate fight for survival of their species. That would have presented an interesting moral conflict. Maybe even have the Archon believe the Remnant hold the key to their survival somehow. Instead they went with the generic "we are your superiors in every way" mustache twirling angle which cheapens the whole thing.
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Post by vonuber on Jul 28, 2017 9:42:36 GMT
The best villains are ones you can sympathise with to some extent. The Archon needed more screentime and explanation as to why he was doing what he was doing.
Imagine if it was to try and become whatever species he was before? To try and de-kett himself and others like him. That would have been an interesting quandary, you sacrifice them saving themselves for your survival.
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Post by coldsteelblue on Jul 28, 2017 9:49:54 GMT
Hmm, interesting thoughts OP & I'd like to add, in my opinion, who was one of the best video game villains to this discussion & why BW would do well to copy this type:
Handsome Jack; this guy as a villain is superb on so many levels, be it the portrayal of a psychopath, or the constant taunting of the player, the real thing that makes Jack sand out is that he spends the majority of Bordelrands 2 kicking the shit out of the player. Right from the start of the game, you are unwittingly dancing to Jack's tune & watching the story unfold kept my incredibly entertain.
This is something that could have been implemented with the Archon, but the writers of Andromeda chose to go with giving him a God complex that saw you as nothing, rather than a pawn & was, quite possibly a wasted opportunity.
BW could very copy the main trope of Jack with DA4, particularly because of how intimately Solas knows The Inquisition & their tactics, but I get the feeling he'll just be more like Corypheus 2.0 as they've already started to draw him like this.
Anyhoo, in short, the Archon had great potential as a puppet master, but this wasn't followed through all too well in my opinion & I think we really need his back story to get a better understanding.
Just my opinion.
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Post by guanxi on Jul 28, 2017 9:50:38 GMT
The kett in general would have worked far better for me as antagonists if Bioware focused more on the biology angle: emphasize the fact that they can't reproduce naturally and have the exaltation be some kind of desperate fight for survival of their species. That would have presented an interesting moral conflict. Maybe even have the Archon believe the Remnant hold the key to their survival somehow. Instead they went with the generic "we are your superiors in every way" mustache twirling angle which cheapens the whole thing. How sad is it that we as the audience have to fill in the character motivation for the antagonist with our own imagination!? In a BioWare game.
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Post by haolyn on Jul 28, 2017 9:54:31 GMT
The kett in general would have worked far better for me as antagonists if Bioware focused more on the biology angle: emphasize the fact that they can't reproduce naturally and have the exaltation be some kind of desperate fight for survival of their species. That would have presented an interesting moral conflict. Maybe even have the Archon believe the Remnant hold the key to their survival somehow. Instead they went with the generic "we are your superiors in every way" mustache twirling angle which cheapens the whole thing. How sad is it that we as the audience have to fill in the motivation for the antagonist with our own imagination!? In a BioWare game. I did the same thing for the Collectors and Cerberus in the OT. Bioware has never been great at villains.
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Post by kumazan on Jul 28, 2017 9:55:56 GMT
Yes, the Archon fails because BioWare failed at giving us any nuance to kett society beyond exaltation. Yes, we got a few datapads here and there, and that tease of a quest pointing to unrest on their files, but we never got to experience that from our own eyes. Much tell, little show. As it was, the kett came off as a generic occupying force that has to be expelled because evil. There's still potential in them as antagonist though, I hope we get to see what the Primus has in store.
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Post by tacsear on Jul 28, 2017 9:57:29 GMT
Loghain is the greatest antagonist Bioware ever produced. This argument is wortless
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Post by guanxi on Jul 28, 2017 10:02:39 GMT
How sad is it that we as the audience have to fill in the motivation for the antagonist with our own imagination!? In a BioWare game. I did the same thing for the Collectors and Cerberus in the OT. Bioware has never been great at villains. Their motivations were no longer their own so that was understandable. The reapers being unknowable beyond our comprehension was handled with care - they addressed the lack of defined motivation directly in the first game and as it turns out would have been preferable to the eventual reveal but at least there were interesting themes being explored throughout from socio-technological evolutionary intervention/coercion, (indoctrination) manipulation and control, (synthesis) organic and synthetic union of flesh, body and mind, etc. Kett are just a blank slate villain of the week and could be replaced by literally anything and nothing significant would have changed in any way.
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Post by cypherj on Jul 28, 2017 10:12:35 GMT
The Archon didn't work for me because he wasn't someone I feared, he wasn't someone who one step ahead of me all game impeding my progress that I felt I had to get ahead of. The Kett weren't even people that I really feared in any way, because the Kett weren't really built up to be anything but fodder enemies until the very end of the game.
At least Saren was really an antagonist. He was abusing his Spectre authority but you couldn't stop him right away because the council wouldn't take your word and you had to go out and prove it. Then he was one step ahead of you most of the places that you went, and time after time got what he needed to achieve his goals. Then they made him sympathetic in a way because he started out with good intention, thinking he was doing the right thing, but became indoctrinated, and didn't realize he was being used. Then even though he antagonized you the entire game you're almost happy that he broke free of the indoctrination and went out on his own terms.
You got nothing from the archon other than the generic, you cannot defeat us, it is inevitable, you have no idea what you're facing. But the Kett were never built up to be anything near the talk. The reapers were built up from the moment you met Sovereign to be something to be feared to the point that you weren't even trying to beat them, you were trying to make sure they couldn't come at all because you didn;t think you could. The Collectors from the opening scene of ME2 were built up to be superior, a huge threat that you had to build yourself up the even the terms of your next encounter.
The Kett, from the prologue where you storm a base with a recon team and defeat a garrison of their soldiers were always inferior to you even though they had larger numbers. Exiles in limited numbers with limited resources kicked them off a planet entirely and held it. The Kett didn't even come across as an obstacle in the game, just more of annoyance, almost like, them again, let's take care of this right quick and get back to what we were doing.
The archon didn't even offer any insight into their race, and you really didn't have any good conversations with him.
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Post by haolyn on Jul 28, 2017 10:14:15 GMT
I did the same thing for the Collectors and Cerberus in the OT. Bioware has never been great at villains. Their motivations were no longer their own so that was understandable. The reapers being unknowable beyond our comprehension was handled with care - they addressed the lack of defined motivation directly in the first game and as it turns out would have been preferable to the eventual reveal but at least there were interesting themes being explored throughout. Kett are just a blank slate villain of the week and could be replaced by literally anything and nothing would have changed significantly. That's all very subjective as I didn't feel that the Collectors being evil just for the sake of it is understandable seeing as how they were the main antagonist of ME2, not the Reapers. I'm not sure why people are so hell bent on claiming that MEA is so much worse than the OT with regards to villains when you hardly had decent antagonists in the OT. I'd rather have the Archon than Benezia or Harbinger or Kai Leng.
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Post by merlinistyle on Jul 28, 2017 10:23:25 GMT
No ? We played his way to darkness. What can be better.. But we are mainly focusing on ME, yeah.
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Post by guanxi on Jul 28, 2017 10:26:21 GMT
Their motivations were no longer their own so that was understandable. The reapers being unknowable beyond our comprehension was handled with care - they addressed the lack of defined motivation directly in the first game and as it turns out would have been preferable to the eventual reveal but at least there were interesting themes being explored throughout. Kett are just a blank slate villain of the week and could be replaced by literally anything and nothing would have changed significantly. That's all very subjective as I didn't feel that the Collectors being evil just for the sake of it is understandable seeing as how they were the main antagonist of ME2, not the Reapers. I'm not sure why people are so hell bent on claiming that MEA is so much worse than the OT with regards to villains when you hardly had decent antagonists in the OT. I'd rather have the Archon than Benezia or Harbinger or Kai Leng. Harbinger and the Reapers were the puppet masters of ME2, they were always the real antagonists of the story - the collectors were little more than reanimated corpses in the same way that the Geth were but mindless foot soldiers in ME1 serving the real enemy. The lack of motivation for the indoctrinated throughout the series was exactly on point.
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Post by haolyn on Jul 28, 2017 10:29:54 GMT
That's all very subjective as I didn't feel that the Collectors being evil just for the sake of it is understandable seeing as how they were the main antagonist of ME2, not the Reapers. I'm not sure why people are so hell bent on claiming that MEA is so much worse than the OT with regards to villains when you hardly had decent antagonists in the OT. I'd rather have the Archon than Benezia or Harbinger or Kai Leng. Harbinger and the Reapers were the puppet masters of ME2, they were always the real antagonists of the story - the collectors were little more than reanimated corpses in the same way that the Geth were but mindless foot soldiers in ME1 serving the real enemy. The lack of motivation for the indoctrinated was precisely the point. So Bioware wrote the story specifically in such a way that they could get away with not writing real motivations for their antagonists and that's good writing?
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Post by cypherj on Jul 28, 2017 10:40:19 GMT
Their motivations were no longer their own so that was understandable. The reapers being unknowable beyond our comprehension was handled with care - they addressed the lack of defined motivation directly in the first game and as it turns out would have been preferable to the eventual reveal but at least there were interesting themes being explored throughout. Kett are just a blank slate villain of the week and could be replaced by literally anything and nothing would have changed significantly. That's all very subjective as I didn't feel that the Collectors being evil just for the sake of it is understandable seeing as how they were the main antagonist of ME2, not the Reapers. I'm not sure why people are so hell bent on claiming that MEA is so much worse than the OT with regards to villains when you hardly had decent antagonists in the OT. I'd rather have the Archon than Benezia or Harbinger or Kai Leng. The Collectors weren't evil for the sake of being evil. They were already in the business of kidnapping people, just in the past they would work for slavers. They just put the talents to work for the reapers to collect bodies for them the create a reaper. They were already evil traffickers.
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Post by guanxi on Jul 28, 2017 10:44:30 GMT
Harbinger and the Reapers were the puppet masters of ME2, they were always the real antagonists of the story - the collectors were little more than reanimated corpses in the same way that the Geth were but mindless foot soldiers in ME1 serving the real enemy. The lack of motivation for the indoctrinated was precisely the point. So Bioware wrote the story specifically in such a way that they could get away with not writing real motivations for their antagonists and that's good writing? The antagonists were the reapers throughout. Their thralls deserved nothing but sympathy due in part to their lack of freewill / motivation as a byproduct of indoctrination which was one of the main themes being explored. They controlled minds of almost any form from beyond time and space... they had well developed motivations and their means of carrying them out were terrifying and the writing was mostly excellent. The Illusive Man was more of a secondary villain than the Collector general, like Saren his motivations were very much his own up until a point and like Saren ended up costing him his freewill in the end which tied up the series very nicely imo. ---- I would have liked to have seen the Archon murder his boss, that would have made sense given the internal politics.
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Post by haolyn on Jul 28, 2017 10:52:48 GMT
That's all very subjective as I didn't feel that the Collectors being evil just for the sake of it is understandable seeing as how they were the main antagonist of ME2, not the Reapers. I'm not sure why people are so hell bent on claiming that MEA is so much worse than the OT with regards to villains when you hardly had decent antagonists in the OT. I'd rather have the Archon than Benezia or Harbinger or Kai Leng. The Collectors weren't evil for the sake of being evil. They were already in the business of kidnapping people, just in the past they would work for slavers. They just put the talents to work for the reapers to collect bodies for them the create a reaper. They were already evil traffickers. The Collectors ARE the Reapers... they're just mindless drones, equivalent to Husks. They have no real motivations other than what the Reapers dictate. So Bioware wrote the story specifically in such a way that they could get away with not writing real motivations for their antagonists and that's good writing? The antagonists were the reapers throughout. Their thralls deserved nothing but sympathy due in part to their lack of freewill / motivation as a byproduct of indoctrination which was one of the main themes being explored. They controlled minds of almost any form beyond time and space... they had well developed motivations and their means of carry them out were terrifying and the writing was mostly excellent. The Illusive Man was more of a secondary villain than the Collector general, like Saren his motivations were very much his own up until a point and like Saren ended up costing him his freewill in the end which tied up the series very nicely imo. To each their own because I think mind control is really a very lazy way to tell a story.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by fchopin on Jul 28, 2017 11:07:40 GMT
Archon was a moron.
It is time Bioware gets real writers that create real enemies and stop with the same moronic enemies in all the games they make.
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LogicGunn
N3
I'll relinquish one bullet. Where do you want it?
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: LogicGunn
PSN: LogicGunn
Posts: 909 Likes: 1,847
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I'll relinquish one bullet. Where do you want it?
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November 2016
logicgunn
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
LogicGunn
LogicGunn
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Post by LogicGunn on Jul 28, 2017 11:20:46 GMT
The Archon wasn't developed enough to be interesting. The first time I saw him, after Alex restarted the vault on Habitat 7, I thought he looked a little melancholy and more like a lost puppy than a bad ass antagonist.
I hope in the next game we get someone to fear and hate. I had more feeling about Cardinal than the Archon. IDK if she had more screen time or just better lines. But the Archon just hammered on about how Ryder couldn't win against him but didn't really do anything.
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Post by themikefest on Jul 28, 2017 11:24:36 GMT
The first time I saw Archie with his ring around the collar halo looking thing, I couldn't stop laughing.
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