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Post by ozzie on Jul 28, 2017 16:01:25 GMT
I think what makes it seem "more" in ME:A is that move to a longer open-world game with at least 209 side quests against a total of 8 priority ops missions (as listed in the Wiki). Now, some of those side missions are either/or scenarios that border on priority ops (that is you have to do one or another to advance) and others are more complex side missions, but that still leaves a higher percentage of missions that are not integral to the main story than in the previous Mass Effect games. Certainly, that is where a lot of the issue with the Kett and to a lesser extent the Exiles comes from, the extent of generic shoot/collect filler quests and how they were smattered in as generic mobs. Where as every bad guy encounter in the MET had a unique set piece, quest or plot point to explain their existence. I think just the concept of the Kett as the single military superpower was a problem and should have been remedied by increasing the number of factions, species, wildlife and variety throughout the cluster, saving the Kett for larger set pieces, handling them more like the collectors in that regard.
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Post by haolyn on Jul 28, 2017 16:17:02 GMT
Really? Cerberus is credible to you? Okay. What are Cerberus' motivations then? How did attacking Sur'Kesh advance their goals? Or staging the coup on the Citadel? Where are they getting all their foot soldiers and advanced weaponry that rival the forces of the entire intergalactic defense force? If you're gonna handwave that away with "reaper tech" then why doesn't anyone else have the capability to process this reaper tech into infinite war assets? They were there for the Krogan female and it is credible that they would have managed to either take or kill it without your intervention... Do I have to belabour the point that I'm talking about credibility as an enemy and not the wider ME3 TIM/Cerberus plot, which I will restate I have plenty problem with! As for their weaponry and actual number, I don't think it was ever implied that they had an inexhaustible supply of foot soldiers (but we don't really know how many captives they managed to indoctrinate) or that they would be a match in a stand up fight with system defence forces, they generally appeared as hit and run attacks and were never portrayed as an army that had the ability to take and hold large swathes of empire as the Kett are. Fair enough about their motivations, but I didn't find it credible at all that they would have the forces to spare to stage hit and runs on so many fronts at the same time. They somehow have enough forces to hit a secret STG base in the salarian homeworld (which you'd think would be far better defended), the seat of galactic power during a war (not even the Reapers seem willing or able to penetrate that!), take over Omega from an army of mercenaries, infiltrate a human research base on Mars using a highly advanced robot that passed as human fooling multiple scientists, Grissom Academy (where they apparently massacre everyone except for a half dozen students), Eden Prime and Tuchanka, while investing untold resources into researching indoctrination, maintaining multiple labs, abducting civilians on multiple locations and even hunting down scientists who manage to escape. I'd say they're doing better than the entire Systems Alliance.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2017 16:24:41 GMT
I think what makes it seem "more" in ME:A is that move to a longer open-world game with at least 209 side quests against a total of 8 priority ops missions (as listed in the Wiki). Now, some of those side missions are either/or scenarios that border on priority ops (that is you have to do one or another to advance) and others are more complex side missions, but that still leaves a higher percentage of missions that are not integral to the main story than in the previous Mass Effect games. Certainly, that is where a lot of the issue with the Kett and to a lesser extent the Exiles comes from, the extent of generic shoot/collect filler quests and how they were smattered in as generic mobs. Where as every bad guy encounter in the MET had a unique set piece, quest or plot point to explain their existence. I think just the concept of the Kett as the single military superpower was a problem and should have been remedied by increasing the number of factions, species, wildlife and variety throughout the cluster, saving the Kett for larger set pieces, handling them more like the collectors in that regard. I disagree that "every bad guy encounter in the MET had a unique set piece" - The side-mission planet battles in ME1 have been widely criticized for using the same warehouse or mine layout over and over and over again. Even Noveria and Feros and Therum have significant sequences of using essentially the same sort of "roadway" as an excuse to funnel geth footsoldiers under the guns of the mako. Even the Ilos Trench Run and the approach on Virmire feel much the same... drive a distance on a narrow path and eventually encounter a few geth footsoldiers accompanied by an armature or two. Was there ever any real in-game story purpose to running into a few mercs standing by one of the probes on Trebin? or why the geth would set "traps" on planets that consisted of a few geth armatures and maybe some other troops hiding around a probe or beacon as occurs on Metgos? If there was a real story-driven connection given there... I must have missed it despite playing that game more than 30 times through it. Why did Benezia even bring all those geth and asari to Peak 15? Since the facility was presented as being essentially owned by Saran and she should have had easy access to talking with the Rachni without arising suspicions by being accompanied by a bunch of commandos and sneaking a bunch of geth into the facility... who then open fire on Shepard in the garage and attack him in small groups along the road... Why not let him come and instruck Ventralis just cut him down at the door? If the geth are after the Thorian on Feros and Saren had already talked with it, why were there geth forces scattered all the way to Exogeni administration building? On Eos, some of the random Kett encountered in their camps are operating surveillance devices reporting the colonists' activities back to the archon. There is a similar side-quest on Voeld. The Kett are frequently encountered after having been dropped into Remnant ruins and the premise there is that the Kett are being instructed to study the Remnant by the Archon who is obsessed with Remnant tech... because he wants control of Meridian. Remnant foot soldiers are their to guard the Remnant tech. On Voeld, there is often evidence on the sight of the Kett attacking and kidnapping angara... in order to (as we find out) turn them into Kett.
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Post by malgus on Jul 28, 2017 16:28:56 GMT
I would say there is two reasons I was dissapointed by the archon. 1. His imagery and symbolism were wasted. At first BW told me that the ketts were designed to not look totally evil, and when I hear that i was intrigued with their design looking more like golem rather than demons. It would have been easy for them to make the ketts obviously evil with dark armor, red eyes (something I love ) and spikes of vilainy but they went more for a weirder look. Same thing for the archons, he looked not that menacing when you see him with his face and smaller size but I was telling "maybe there is a reason for that". The rings upon his head and the cable who made him float into the air made him looked like an angel. And honestly I was looking foward to that, maybe he will be kind of the angel of death for the initiave, the one who bring devastation excepting a rebirth of life or something crazy. But in the end, the symbolism was kind of useless because the archon was a generic villain willing to conquer everything and proably was trying to be the starscream to the senate. Now maybe if we learn more about the senate it will brings a bit of the depth to his intention but we shall have to wait for that. I would say that for all that I have seen, the primus would have been a much better main antagonist, because the primus seems to represent the ideology of the kett, the blue and orange one that don't see themselves as villain and don't understand that what they do is evil. 2. Now the second reasons is smaller is bit more gameplay wise, its that I did not like the final confrontation with the archon. Now I liked the battle of meridian, but the final boss itself, I was excepting a more unique boss when fighting the archon but unfortunately, he was more of a "tougher architects with more remnant fighting by his sides and the harder envinronment" I wanted more from this final confrontation, something that would feel archon only but unfortunately it was not there.
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Post by danishgambit on Jul 28, 2017 16:51:49 GMT
Loghain wasn't mustache twirling at all. As you go through the game everyone paints him this way, which is completely understandable, but when you talk to the man himself you don't get this impression at all. I noted something at the landsmeet: when you give a bad argument about the war effort one of Loghain's allies starts to berate you on how you know nothing at all about war or strategy and that you have no place to criticize. And although appeal to authority is a logical fallacy there really is no reason whatsoever for the warden to have any good opinions on how such a war is supposed to be waged at all. The human noble, and dwarf noble might have some ideas but they've never had to lead an army. Alistair is a knight of sorts but has never been in war and we know the rest of the group except for Sten wouldn't have any good opinions. Morgan actually suggested that you should go right after Loghain in the beginning of the game without an army... I find it unlikely that anyone in the group except for Sten would have any good arguments regardless. I don't have a clue what I'd do in that situation at all.
Loghain gives the impression that Cailan was a fool who wanted to go to war for glory and started a battle he could never hope to win. He says that he retreated because the alternative would just lead to more people dying needlessly. He never talks like some cardboard villain that's just jealous of Cailan or whatever. He loves the guy but he's not going to let him send good men to their deaths because of that.
The only real reason you really might see Loghain as mustache twirling is because there's a scene where Loghain basically looks at the camera and talks about how it will be a great moment for them all or something like that and grins in true villain fashion. That's definitely a mustache twirling moment for sure. But I don't think this scene alone hurts the character. Its not like the guy would've pulled out if they were winning, however unlikely that may have been. Him denying the Chevalier from helping Ferelden stop the Darkspawn was definitely a questionable decision. However he remembers how the Orlesians enslaved Fereldans during the occupation and he doesn't want to allow that to happen again.
So no he's not really mustache twirling despite his moments. He's mostly just pragmatic possibly to the detriment of Ferelden. He's a villain for sure but not mustache twirling.
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luketrevelyan
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Post by luketrevelyan on Jul 28, 2017 17:05:57 GMT
The Archon (and kett in general) was one of the more disappointing aspects of MEA. Although I enjoyed the game overall, I felt the exploration/colonization side of the story was far more compelling than the enemy we faced. The Archon seemed to be a villain just because the game needed one. He was very cliche and almost comical at times, which made it hard to take him seriously.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2017 17:10:47 GMT
No understanding of his motivation.
Not much more than a one dimensional character.
His never ending dialogue repeat during your final battle which was not even with him specifically. (two dings there)
Extra ding for his wanting to destroy worlds and that Meridian can do that. This is something that they put forth in the story but it's never really said how and the assumption is rather idiotic. It's a bit like saying since a women's uterus can create life, it can destroy life. *shrug* It's powerful and can create life, therefore it must be able to destroy it. Not once are we even given the slightest most vague 'how' about how this could actually be done. It's just assumed, stated as fact and the science fan in me at least wants some attempt at the 'how' to be made. Without that explanation everything after that with regards to the Archon is comical at best, tedious at worst. I really missed saren.
The writers really needed to go play or read the scrips for DAO and focus on Loghain (I think there was a book or comic in there that added depth to him as well) and then do the same for ME1 (Saren). Clearly they did not.
I still love the game, but yeah, this villain is a bit of a joke as is his end goal to destroy worlds. I get it's how he wants them to all submit to exaltation, but it's done so poorly. I can see him as a villain that is burned out of helius and wants to finish his work and go home, but that is never really something that they elaborate on and they really needed to.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 28, 2017 17:17:47 GMT
I would say there is two reasons I was dissapointed by the archon. 1. His imagery and symbolism were wasted. At first BW told me that the ketts were designed to not look totally evil, and when I hear that i was intrigued with their design looking more like golem rather than demons. It would have been easy for them to make the ketts obviously evil with dark armor, red eyes (something I love ) and spikes of vilainy but they went more for a weirder look. Same thing for the archons, he looked not that menacing when you see him with his face and smaller size but I was telling "maybe there is a reason for that". The rings upon his head and the cable who made him float into the air made him looked like an angel. And honestly I was looking foward to that, maybe he will be kind of the angel of death for the initiave, the one who bring devastation excepting a rebirth of life or something crazy. But in the end, the symbolism was kind of useless because the archon was a generic villain willing to conquer everything and proably was trying to be the starscream to the senate. Now maybe if we learn more about the senate it will brings a bit of the depth to his intention but we shall have to wait for that. I would say that for all that I have seen, the primus would have been a much better main antagonist, because the primus seems to represent the ideology of the kett, the blue and orange one that don't see themselves as villain and don't understand that what they do is evil. 2. Now the second reasons is smaller is bit more gameplay wise, its that I did not like the final confrontation with the archon. Now I liked the battle of meridian, but the final boss itself, I was excepting a more unique boss when fighting the archon but unfortunately, he was more of a "tougher architects with more remnant fighting by his sides and the harder envinronment" I wanted more from this final confrontation, something that would feel archon only but unfortunately it was not there. I kinda feel the way you feel about the Archon about Saren.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2017 17:18:20 GMT
They were there for the Krogan female and it is credible that they would have managed to either take or kill it without your intervention... Do I have to belabour the point that I'm talking about credibility as an enemy and not the wider ME3 TIM/Cerberus plot, which I will restate I have plenty problem with! As for their weaponry and actual number, I don't think it was ever implied that they had an inexhaustible supply of foot soldiers (but we don't really know how many captives they managed to indoctrinate) or that they would be a match in a stand up fight with system defence forces, they generally appeared as hit and run attacks and were never portrayed as an army that had the ability to take and hold large swathes of empire as the Kett are. Fair enough about their motivations, but I didn't find it credible at all that they would have the forces to spare to stage hit and runs on so many fronts at the same time. They somehow have enough forces to hit a secret STG base in the salarian homeworld (which you'd think would be far better defended), the seat of galactic power during a war (not even the Reapers seem willing or able to penetrate that!), take over Omega from an army of mercenaries, infiltrate a human research base on Mars using a highly advanced robot that passed as human fooling multiple scientists, Grissom Academy (where they apparently massacre everyone except for a half dozen students), Eden Prime and Tuchanka, while investing untold resources into researching indoctrination, maintaining multiple labs, abducting civilians on multiple locations and even hunting down scientists who manage to escape. I'd say they're doing better than the entire Systems Alliance. Grissom Academy is clearly portrayed by Kahlee Sanders as having been essentially shut down and the students sent home prior to Cerberus showing up... leaving only "fewer than 20 students" who volunteered to stay on (at 4:30 in this video)
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Post by KaiserShep on Jul 28, 2017 17:24:31 GMT
Biggest issue with the kett is that their in-game tactics don't reflect their history with the angara. They could have been the peaceful welcome wagon for the initiative while the angara were [rightly] hostile and isolationist, and by the time we figure out their ultimate goal they've already started their quick assault on a colony or two or three.
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Post by Hawke on Jul 28, 2017 17:36:25 GMT
The Archon was as "evil" as the radiation on Eos. He happened to stand on the way of the Initiative and didn't cooperate, when had the chance. No hard feelings.
The only annoying part was him shouting generic threats during the final battle.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 28, 2017 18:50:58 GMT
Whoever added the poll was a genius.
I forgot to add that the whole working with the bad guy bit IS in Andromeda. Twice. And you can ultimately choose which bad guy you have during that sequence. Sloan Kelly or Reyes is probably two of the best individual bad guys in the game.
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Post by Deana on Jul 28, 2017 18:57:19 GMT
He looks like a Muppet baby. I couldn't take him seriously.
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Post by SofNascimento on Jul 28, 2017 18:58:06 GMT
I thought he had a baby face that made him impossible to take seriously. Beyond that, all his dialogue felt flat to me. Just him being randomly arrogant without being threatening at all.
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Post by SwobyJ on Jul 28, 2017 19:01:12 GMT
Moderate.
I'll take him, not too impressed.
But as a character I'm interested if more is done with him, as there seems to be hints. Yes, post-death.
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Post by haolyn on Jul 28, 2017 19:14:09 GMT
Fair enough about their motivations, but I didn't find it credible at all that they would have the forces to spare to stage hit and runs on so many fronts at the same time. They somehow have enough forces to hit a secret STG base in the salarian homeworld (which you'd think would be far better defended), the seat of galactic power during a war (not even the Reapers seem willing or able to penetrate that!), take over Omega from an army of mercenaries, infiltrate a human research base on Mars using a highly advanced robot that passed as human fooling multiple scientists, Grissom Academy (where they apparently massacre everyone except for a half dozen students), Eden Prime and Tuchanka, while investing untold resources into researching indoctrination, maintaining multiple labs, abducting civilians on multiple locations and even hunting down scientists who manage to escape. I'd say they're doing better than the entire Systems Alliance. Grissom Academy is clearly portrayed by Kahlee Sanders as having been essentially shut down and the students sent home prior to Cerberus showing up... leaving only "fewer than 20 students" who volunteered to stay on (at 4:30 in this video) Fair enough, my larger point still stands though. Whoever added the poll was a genius. I forgot to add that the whole working with the bad guy bit IS in Andromeda. Twice. And you can ultimately choose which bad guy you have during that sequence. Sloan Kelly or Reyes is probably two of the best individual bad guys in the game. Akksul is also a good villain. Honestly Bioware CAN write compelling antagonists, which is why it's so frustrating when they get it so wrong.
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Post by majesticjazz on Jul 28, 2017 19:25:55 GMT
Whats the difference between a Power Rangers villain and the Archon?
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Post by ArabianIGoggles on Jul 28, 2017 19:42:34 GMT
The Kett as a whole aren't very intimidating. The Turian Hierarchy alone could crush the Kett from what we've seen. So that doesn't make for a very scary threat IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2017 19:46:12 GMT
He looks like a Muppet baby. I couldn't take him seriously. I've always thought he looked more like an acorn.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 28, 2017 20:14:44 GMT
Grissom Academy is clearly portrayed by Kahlee Sanders as having been essentially shut down and the students sent home prior to Cerberus showing up... leaving only "fewer than 20 students" who volunteered to stay on (at 4:30 in this video) Fair enough, my larger point still stands though. Whoever added the poll was a genius. I forgot to add that the whole working with the bad guy bit IS in Andromeda. Twice. And you can ultimately choose which bad guy you have during that sequence. Sloan Kelly or Reyes is probably two of the best individual bad guys in the game. Akksul is also a good villain. Honestly Bioware CAN write compelling antagonists, which is why it's so frustrating when they get it so wrong. Aksuul should have been the main antagonist of the game. Granted Bioware didn't want to tell that story...not that i blame them....but I'd leave everything alone except for making Aksuul the bad guy.
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Daft Arbiter
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Post by Daft Arbiter on Jul 28, 2017 20:53:02 GMT
He looks like Saren Arterius and Corypheus had a baby.
Why do so many Bioware villains have to be some weird Byzantine-Romanesque dude?
But in all seriousness, the Kett in general is one of the biggest things that made me just not interested in the game. When you bank your conflict on one type of antagonist and they're a big pile of "meh" then so what?
The ME1 Geth are incredibly alien and unknowable, curious yet xenophobic and terrifyingly violent; the Reapers are monstrous on a scale nearly impossible to describe (until ME3, anyway). KOTOR's Malak was a generic Sith lord, but he at least makes the player character have to weigh the enemy within. Loghain was a good man whose life was stained by tragedy, which had corrupted him not unlike the taint that the Wardens are sworn to destroy.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2017 21:01:17 GMT
He looks like Saren Arterius and Corypheus had a baby. Why do so many Bioware villains have to be some weird Byzantine-Romanesque dude? But in all seriousness, the Kett in general is one of the biggest things that made me just not interested in the game. When you bank your conflict on one type of antagonist and they're a big pile of "meh" then so what? The ME1 Geth are incredibly alien and unknowable, curious yet xenophobic and terrifyingly violent; the Reapers are monstrous on a scale nearly impossible to describe (until ME3, anyway). KOTOR's Malak was a generic Sith lord, but he at least makes the player character have to weigh the enemy within. Loghain was a good man whose life was stained by tragedy, which had corrupted him not unlike the taint that the Wardens are sworn to destroy. In ME1 - the geth are just Saren's lackey's. On there own, they don't do anything that is "xenophobic" or "terrifyingly violent." You don't interact/converse with any of them to know anything about what they are thinking. They are really just the non-human bodies you shoot at. The only thing outside of combat that you really learn about them is through Saren and that is that they worship Sovereign, but Sovereign is less than amused. Tali pretty much tells you outright that you need a whole bunch of them before they even get smart enough to have much in the way of a complex thought. Even though Tali wants you to look for evidence of geth tech of those not under Saren's control, you never are really given anything tangible that they have developed anything particularly lethal on their own... just a very ambiguous mention of a data disc with some unknown info on it that gets you 1 Paragon point if you allow her to make a copy. The geth putting people on spikes are, without exception, under Saren's control.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Jul 28, 2017 21:03:56 GMT
The Kett as a whole aren't very intimidating. The Turian Hierarchy alone could crush the Kett from what we've seen. So that doesn't make for a very scary threat IMO. The problem with the kett "And by extension, the Archon) is that they were essentially Reaper-lite. They go around "ascending" species with a fanatical, almost robotic devotion to some twisted ideal.
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Daft Arbiter
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Post by Daft Arbiter on Jul 28, 2017 21:07:31 GMT
He looks like Saren Arterius and Corypheus had a baby. Why do so many Bioware villains have to be some weird Byzantine-Romanesque dude? But in all seriousness, the Kett in general is one of the biggest things that made me just not interested in the game. When you bank your conflict on one type of antagonist and they're a big pile of "meh" then so what? The ME1 Geth are incredibly alien and unknowable, curious yet xenophobic and terrifyingly violent; the Reapers are monstrous on a scale nearly impossible to describe (until ME3, anyway). KOTOR's Malak was a generic Sith lord, but he at least makes the player character have to weigh the enemy within. Loghain was a good man whose life was stained by tragedy, which had corrupted him not unlike the taint that the Wardens are sworn to destroy. In ME1 - the geth are just Saren's lackey's. On there own, they don't do anything that is "xenophobic" or "terrifyingly violent." You don't interact/converse with any of them to know anything about what they are thinking. They are really just the non-human bodies you shoot at. The only thing outside of combat that you really learn about them is through Saren and that is that they worship Sovereign, but Sovereign is less than amused. The Geth kill pretty much anything that crosses into the Perseus Veil, and do not open diplomatic dialogue with any outsiders until Shepard starts working with them. They don't even communicate in a manner that any non-Geth can understand. I'd say that definitely counts as xenophobic.
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Hope for the best, plan for the worst
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 28, 2017 21:15:47 GMT
The Kett as a whole aren't very intimidating. The Turian Hierarchy alone could crush the Kett from what we've seen. So that doesn't make for a very scary threat IMO. The problem with the kett "And by extension, the Archon) is that they were essentially Reaper-lite. They go around "ascending" species with a fanatical, almost robotic devotion to some twisted ideal. I don't agree. Similar maybe but very different goals.
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