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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 25, 2017 20:34:18 GMT
As for bugs, it's hard to use that as an objective metric since they affect players differently. Not just certain platforms, but even two players on the same platform can have wildly different experiences when it comes to bugs.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2017 20:34:36 GMT
The only problem I had (that I can remember) was getting my horse stuck in a building. ME:A was far harsher to me. One mission in particular was where Geralt was being ambushed at night by a group of talking mystical creatures and, while I was able talk most of them down, the last one, a werewolf I believe, wanted to fight. I try resolving that one like 8 or 9 times but, after each time I defeated him, the the music just kept playing and he stayed dead but upright indefinitely. Another bugged quest had to with the dumpling maker you were trying to assist in becoming a sword maker...I had to redo that one like 4 or 5 times. Another one was a the quest with Yen near the beginning of the game where you had to kill a Werewolf that couldn't kill himself due to a curse. There were many more that were bugged like that where the screen would get stuck, the volume would drop or have no sound, or the mission just wouldn't complete. I'll 1 up you... I lost 10 hours worth of saves in ME:A due to the companion death bug. It took me a while to notice Peebee floating 50 feet in the air.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 25, 2017 20:34:56 GMT
What I mean is you can choose your background through your choices of the power. 'Operative' or 'Technician' implies different mind sets that you can role play from there, as well as the different powers. Plus the actual backgrounds we are given are very vague. And again, they can inform Role playing, they don't actually effect it. Wow... Not really. I honestly think out of all the arguments I have heard about how MEA is a 'weak' RPG...yours is by far the weakest. heh I just realized what I did there.
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Post by Sanunes on Sept 25, 2017 20:35:01 GMT
Since we have gotten off-topic, I am going to try to put us back onto topic.
To me the time frame will have more to do with what they are going to do with the game instead of what happened with Andromeda. Normally it takes three to four years to develop a new BioWare title which honestly is probably enough time for the wounds that people want to heal will heal, if anything a good game will be a better fix then time. Look at the Assassin's Creed games for example, they still churned them out year after year even when they started to alienate their fans, but Black Flag was received very well.
I think we won't have to wait a long time for another Mass Effect game if BioWare gives up the foolish (in my opinion) attempt to convert their games into open world games and goes back to their strengths. Mostly development time and giving enough of a gap between Anthem and then Dragon Age so they aren't competing with one another.
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Post by mannyray on Sept 25, 2017 20:38:20 GMT
Nothing you said there negated what I said about which face you stare at the entire game. And as for personality I'm going to say that you're wrong. Geralt has far more ways to deal with a decision than Ryder by a long shot. Of the 4 personalities that ME:A lets you choose, none really affect the out come. Your decisions in-game are your personality. Let's use an example. Can Geralt be anything other than a straight man who has had sex with multiple women? The answer is no. Meanwhile Ryder can be any sexual orientation and preference. Thus Ryder is more player-determined than predetermined. There's many cases of that, and Ryder is among the more predefined of Bioware's protagonists. Again not saying that the player has no input on Geralt like some JRPGs, just he is a lot more predetermined than Bioware protagonists are. Hence why I said I'm curious to see how CDPR do with Cyberpunk 2077 since that is going to be extremely player-determined. Sure, you have no control over geralt's gender or sexual preferences, but if that's the bar, it's no wonder characterization in ME:A is one of the game's weakest points compared to ME:2 and 3. the player still has far more tangible effect on Geralt's personality, moral code, etc. than with Ryder.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2017 20:39:22 GMT
Nothing you said there negated what I said about which face you stare at the entire game. And as for personality I'm going to say that you're wrong. Geralt has far more ways to deal with a decision than Ryder by a long shot. Of the 4 personalities that ME:A lets you choose, none really affect the out come. Your decisions in-game are your personality. Let's use an example. Can Geralt be anything other than a straight man who has had sex with multiple women? The answer is no. Meanwhile Ryder can be any sexual orientation and preference. Thus Ryder is more player-determined than predetermined. There's many cases of that, and Ryder is among the more predefined of Bioware's protagonists. Again not saying that the player has no input on Geralt like some JRPGs, just he is a lot more predetermined than Bioware protagonists are. Hence why I said I'm curious to see how CDPR do with Cyberpunk 2077 since that is going to be extremely player-determined. I can't argue Ryder's sexuality. For sure he/she has that as an advantage. I can only argue from my point of view per the way I play my characters.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 25, 2017 20:40:22 GMT
Let's use an example. Can Geralt be anything other than a straight man who has had sex with multiple women? The answer is no. Meanwhile Ryder can be any sexual orientation and preference. Thus Ryder is more player-determined than predetermined. There's many cases of that, and Ryder is among the more predefined of Bioware's protagonists. Again not saying that the player has no input on Geralt like some JRPGs, just he is a lot more predetermined than Bioware protagonists are. Hence why I said I'm curious to see how CDPR do with Cyberpunk 2077 since that is going to be extremely player-determined. Sure, you have no control over geralt's gender or sexual preferences, but if that's the bar, it's no wonder characterization in ME:A is one of the game's weakest points compared to ME:2 and 3. the player still has far more tangible effect on Geralt's personality, moral code, etc. than with Ryder. MEA has far more characterization than ME2 and ME3. Those two games had the least roleplayability when it came to the protagonist(or in general in the case of ME2) in Bioware games. Plus as I said In was just using that particular case as an easy example, noting there were more.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2017 20:42:26 GMT
Wow... Not really. I honestly think out of all the arguments I have heard about how MEA is a 'weak' RPG...yours is by far the weakest. heh I just realized what I did there. I'm going to be straight up with you here... ...ready?... If your argument is somehow me calling ME:A a weak rpg then you sir are a fucking idiot. I'm sorry to put it that way but... I never once called it a weak rpg. Only debating the difference of Geralt vs Ryder. Take that white knight shit somewhere else please.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 25, 2017 20:44:45 GMT
Not really. I honestly think out of all the arguments I have heard about how MEA is a 'weak' RPG...yours is by far the weakest. heh I just realized what I did there. I'm going to be straight up with you here... ...ready?... If your argument is somehow me calling ME:A a weak rpg then you sir are a fucking idiot. I'm sorry to put it that way but... I never once called it a weak rpg. Only debating the difference of Geralt vs Ryder. Take that white knight shit somewhere else please. In that case I misunderstood. But then if your argument is 'MEA is a weaker RPG then Witcher 3 because you can't pick Ryder's background'...then that is nonsense considering you can't choose Geralt's background either.
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Post by mannyray on Sept 25, 2017 20:45:29 GMT
Sure, you have no control over geralt's gender or sexual preferences, but if that's the bar, it's no wonder characterization in ME:A is one of the game's weakest points compared to ME:2 and 3. the player still has far more tangible effect on Geralt's personality, moral code, etc. than with Ryder. MEA has far more characterization than ME2 and ME3. Those two games had the least roleplayability when it came to the protagonist(or in general in the case of ME2) in Bioware games. Plus as I said In was just using that particular case as an easy example, noting there were more. In what ways does ME:A have better characterization, though? Sure there's more as you have a ship full of complete strangers who can't wait to bare their souls to you within the first hour meeting, but that doesn't necessarily make it better, more immersive or more believable.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 25, 2017 20:46:15 GMT
Since we have gotten off-topic, I am going to try to put us back onto topic. To me the time frame will have more to do with what they are going to do with the game instead of what happened with Andromeda. Normally it takes three to four years to develop a new BioWare title which honestly is probably enough time for the wounds that people want to heal will heal, if anything a good game will be a better fix then time. Look at the Assassin's Creed games for example, they still churned them out year after year even when they started to alienate their fans, but Black Flag was received very well. I think we won't have to wait a long time for another Mass Effect game if BioWare gives up the foolish (in my opinion) attempt to convert their games into open world games and goes back to their strengths. Mostly development time and giving enough of a gap between Anthem and then Dragon Age so they aren't competing with one another. Even keeping open-worlds wouldn't add that much time. They just need to not try to procedurally-generated worlds since that ate up most of their time with nothing to show for it. Really MEA only had 2 years of development so with 3 or 4 it should be much better. Even a few more months made it much better with the patches.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2017 20:47:30 GMT
I'm going to be straight up with you here... ...ready?... If your argument is somehow me calling ME:A a weak rpg then you sir are a fucking idiot. I'm sorry to put it that way but... I never once called it a weak rpg. Only debating the difference of Geralt vs Ryder. Take that white knight shit somewhere else please. In that case I misunderstood. But then if your argument is 'MEA is a weaker RPG then Witcher 3 because you can't pick Ryder's background'...then that is nonsense considering you can't choose Geralt's background either. I'm only debating yours (and others for that matter) determination that Ryder is somehow vastly different from Geralt in terms of RP. That's it.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 25, 2017 20:50:04 GMT
In that case I misunderstood. But then if your argument is 'MEA is a weaker RPG then Witcher 3 because you can't pick Ryder's background'...then that is nonsense considering you can't choose Geralt's background either. I'm only debating yours (and others for that matter) determination that Ryder is somehow vastly different from Geralt in terms of RP. That's it. And they are. At least imo. You have far more control over Ryder's character then you have over Geralt's character.
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Post by mannyray on Sept 25, 2017 20:51:17 GMT
Since we have gotten off-topic, I am going to try to put us back onto topic. To me the time frame will have more to do with what they are going to do with the game instead of what happened with Andromeda. Normally it takes three to four years to develop a new BioWare title which honestly is probably enough time for the wounds that people want to heal will heal, if anything a good game will be a better fix then time. Look at the Assassin's Creed games for example, they still churned them out year after year even when they started to alienate their fans, but Black Flag was received very well. I think we won't have to wait a long time for another Mass Effect game if BioWare gives up the foolish (in my opinion) attempt to convert their games into open world games and goes back to their strengths. Mostly development time and giving enough of a gap between Anthem and then Dragon Age so they aren't competing with one another. Even keeping open-worlds wouldn't add that much time. They just need to not try to procedurally-generated worlds since that ate up most of their time with nothing to show for it. Really MEA only had 2 years of development so with 3 or 4 it should be much better. Even a few more months made it much better with the patches. 2 years of development after finally scuttling a dead-end track. It actually had five. This is also not the first game bioware released halfbaked or in a mismanaged fashion, as five years of development on SWTOR and a six figure budget yielded borked launch and the rest is history.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 25, 2017 20:53:25 GMT
Even keeping open-worlds wouldn't add that much time. They just need to not try to procedurally-generated worlds since that ate up most of their time with nothing to show for it. Really MEA only had 2 years of development so with 3 or 4 it should be much better. Even a few more months made it much better with the patches. 2 years of development after finally scuttling a dead-end track. It actually had five. This is also not the first game bioware released halfbaked or in a mismanaged fashion, as five years of development on SWTOR and a six figure budget yielded borked launch and the rest is history. You know what I meant. Most of the development like the characters, story details, etc, happened only in the last 2 years of its development.
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Post by mannyray on Sept 25, 2017 20:56:15 GMT
2 years of development after finally scuttling a dead-end track. It actually had five. This is also not the first game bioware released halfbaked or in a mismanaged fashion, as five years of development on SWTOR and a six figure budget yielded borked launch and the rest is history. You know what I meant. Most of the development like the characters, story details, etc, happened only in the last 2 years of its development. that's more of an issue of how Bioware Montreal chose to manage their time. There is no indication that they could not have spent more time and resources on a tighter script. Also, two years is plenty of time to avoid some of the most glaring writing pitfalls of this game. The bar for what's good storytelling for video games is often lower than that for film or tv-- at least looking at all three media at their best.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 25, 2017 20:58:44 GMT
You know what I meant. Most of the development like the characters, story details, etc, happened only in the last 2 years of its development. that's more of an issue of how Bioware Montreal chose to manage their time. There is no indication that they could not have spent more time and resources on a tighter script. Also, two years is plenty of time to avoid some of the most glaring writing pitfalls of this game. The bar for what's good storytelling for video games is often lower than that for film or tv-- at least looking at all three media at their best. Now we are getting into subjective territory. I saw no glaring writing pitfalls in MEA. At least no more than in any other Mass Effect game.
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Post by samhain444 on Sept 25, 2017 21:00:37 GMT
Yeah, CDPR patched, adjusted, and added content to the game after release just like BioWare. Even after the last patched, there was still a couple of missions in TW3 that I couldn't finish. I'm glad Mass Effect and Dragon Age are in BioWare's hands... TW3 is another game released in a "patch it later who cares" game development culture but CDPR did not release an essentially 3/4 finished broken game the way EAware did. Others above talk about Ryder's personal growth, but really the dialogue choices don't matter that much and in some cases not at all. Geralt was Geralt but you the player still had more control over his personality and moral compass than you ever did with Ryder. And yes, I'm playing TW3 off and on now and in many ways it is better than ME:A 1) Your choices ingame matter more. 2)while there are some tedious fetch missions, they mixed it up some and the more significant main story and side material. 3)The open world milieu was one of the best I've seen. However, I think if this was about a place no human had ever visited we'd have the same issues for the ADD crowd because it's not a hallway shooter. 4)Yes, the facial animations are far superior. 5)The writing is better. It doesn't transcend the genre but it's very good by video game standards. the story itself is tighter and the dialogue was written by grownups who know how to write fiction. I don't expect EA to hand over the Mass Effect IP for anything less than a princely sum that cdpr would probably never want to pay, but Bioware can learn a thing or two from TW3. One more thing, EAware should have been able to make a far better game for 40 million dollars. 1) The Witcher 3 was the culmination of a trilogy, ME:A was beginning of a new series of games with a new protagonist. The choices in TW3 should matter more. ME:A was not unlike ME1 - regardless of what you did in ME1, the repercussions were not felt until ME2/ME3. 2) TW3 did a better job of side missions than ME:A, agree with that. I think, though, that ME:A was an improvement on DA:I and, as the content in the Mass Effect series and Dragon Age Origins & 2 demonstrated, they are capable of producing quality content. DA:I and ME:A were developed in Frostbite 3, an engine foreign to RPGs, and a lot of content had to be custom made so I am anticipating their next efforts to be better. 3) I think ME:A needed more of a "corridor" to advance narrative within the "open world". One of the faults of ME:A was how it just laid out everything bare in terms of the missions and side-content with no direction in particular for the uninitiated. Since I've played the game over 500hrs now, I know what I'm doing but I remember struggling a bit at first. Hopefully, BioWare addresses this after similar complaints in DA:I and ME:A. 4) TW3 had better animations overall than ME:A but was on par with DA:I initially. TW3 really distinguished itself though with their expansions, "Hearts of Stone" and "Blood and Wine" and overall animations were better. I thought the body animations chosen for the characters in ME:A were an odd choice as they seemed to be always walking with their arms held at weird angles and eye focus was hit and miss. Later on after patch 1.09, I could see definite improvements in the facials expressions, especially around the eyes and mouth, for character that spoke with in terms of crew and NPCs. One thing they need to get away from is the "conversation from a distance" perspective they've used for both DA:I and ME:A. I'm replaying the trilogy and it makes a difference in terms of immersion. 5) I liked most of the story and dialogue for ME:A but, yeah, the script was tighter for TW3. I thought ME:A missed some obvious conversational beats and, for every completed story arc like Drack, you had Liam...just there. The script is where the quick turnaround time on development was felt the most as certain aspects felt like early drafts. My feeling, based on what we've read collectively in articles on the problems with ME:A's development, there was initial vision of where they wanted to go with the franchise didn't work after 3 years and they had crank out something that would make "some" sense or risk burning $40 mil with nothing to show for it. I liked DA:I so I'm hoping DA4 and, crossed fingers, a new ME sequel has a better birth.
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Post by Serza on Sept 25, 2017 21:04:09 GMT
The Mass Effect series already is. Not since the latest iteration. Mass Effect needs to be in the hands of competent developers who crank out GOTY masterpieces every three years. Show me the precedent then. Go on. My thanks for the correction, but it's not limited to just my opinion. Ladies and gentlemen, the train has arrived at it's final destination. Everyone please disembark. Considering we just found the root of the problem, I believe we're done here.
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Post by samhain444 on Sept 25, 2017 21:05:35 GMT
One mission in particular was where Geralt was being ambushed at night by a group of talking mystical creatures and, while I was able talk most of them down, the last one, a werewolf I believe, wanted to fight. I try resolving that one like 8 or 9 times but, after each time I defeated him, the the music just kept playing and he stayed dead but upright indefinitely. Another bugged quest had to with the dumpling maker you were trying to assist in becoming a sword maker...I had to redo that one like 4 or 5 times. Another one was a the quest with Yen near the beginning of the game where you had to kill a Werewolf that couldn't kill himself due to a curse. There were many more that were bugged like that where the screen would get stuck, the volume would drop or have no sound, or the mission just wouldn't complete. I'll 1 up you... I lost 10 hours worth of saves in ME:A due to the companion death bug. It took me a while to notice Peebee floating 50 feet in the air. Conversely, I had one bug in my entire playthrough of ME:A on XBox One pre-patch (got to start on 03/15/2017 through EA Access) through patches 1.04/1.05. The only issue I had was Drack's companion mission at the end when everyone starting floating in a "T" and then it stalled. I re-started and was able to finish it out with no problem. Weird how different people get different experiences.
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Post by mannyray on Sept 25, 2017 21:09:30 GMT
that's more of an issue of how Bioware Montreal chose to manage their time. There is no indication that they could not have spent more time and resources on a tighter script. Also, two years is plenty of time to avoid some of the most glaring writing pitfalls of this game. The bar for what's good storytelling for video games is often lower than that for film or tv-- at least looking at all three media at their best. Now we are getting into subjective territory. I saw no glaring writing pitfalls in MEA. At least no more than in any other Mass Effect game. You may want to reexamine. I know once you boil something down so much you do get to the subjective point of personal taste, but we've just scratched the surface of what was wrong with the dialogue, plot cohesion (maybe more middle of the pack by video game standards at best) etc. with ME:A I like the premise, I like the wide open galaxy where truly no person has gone before, but the problem is in the telling. I still don't see how any adult who lives in a world with other adults didn't find some of the interpersonal relationships and dialogue laughably bad.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 25, 2017 21:12:42 GMT
Now we are getting into subjective territory. I saw no glaring writing pitfalls in MEA. At least no more than in any other Mass Effect game. You may want to reexamine. I know once you boil something down so much you do get to the subjective point of personal taste, but we've just scratched the surface of what was wrong with the dialogue, plot cohesion (maybe more middle of the pack by video game standards at best) etc. with ME:A I like the premise, I like the wide open galaxy where truly no person has gone before, but the problem is in the telling. I still don't see how any adult who lives in a world with other adults didn't find some of the interpersonal relationships and dialogue laughably bad. It was supposed to be that though. Again bad writing is bad writing when it is not internally consistent or when it does not properly undergo some kind of arc. And the internal logic of MEA is Ryder is an awkard flirter. And another clue that this is not bad writing but intentional writing is how Kallo called it out on the bridge when Ryder was flirting with Suvi. Ryder is an isolated character who probably did not have much experience as flirting...so they flirt awkwardly.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 25, 2017 21:16:17 GMT
You may want to reexamine. I know once you boil something down so much you do get to the subjective point of personal taste, but we've just scratched the surface of what was wrong with the dialogue, plot cohesion (maybe more middle of the pack by video game standards at best) etc. with ME:A I like the premise, I like the wide open galaxy where truly no person has gone before, but the problem is in the telling. I still don't see how any adult who lives in a world with other adults didn't find some of the interpersonal relationships and dialogue laughably bad. It was supposed to be that though. Again bad writing is bad writing when it is not internally consistent or when it does not properly undergo some kind of arc. And the internal logic of MEA is Ryder is an awkard flirter. And another clue that this is not bad writing but intentional writing is how Kallo called it out on the bridge when Ryder was flirting with Suvi. Ryder is an isolated character who probably did not have much experience as flirting...so they flirt awkwardly. I liked Ryder's flirts much more than Shepard's. Give me a dork over a borderline sexual predator any day.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2017 21:17:00 GMT
I'll 1 up you... I lost 10 hours worth of saves in ME:A due to the companion death bug. It took me a while to notice Peebee floating 50 feet in the air. Conversely, I had one bug in my entire playthrough of ME:A on XBox One pre-patch (got to start on 03/15/2017 through EA Access) through patches 1.04/1.05. The only issue I had was Drack's companion mission at the end when everyone starting floating in a "T" and then it stalled. I re-started and was able to finish it out with no problem. Weird how different people get different experiences.That's true. It could also be chalked up to which system you played it on. A PC for me. I have to give a shout out to smilesja. He gives a thumbs up to just about anyone who post back me. A tool is a tool is a...
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mannyray
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Played Anthem finally. So... yeah.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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mannyray
Played Anthem finally. So... yeah.
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mannyray
Mass Effect Trilogy, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by mannyray on Sept 25, 2017 21:17:03 GMT
You may want to reexamine. I know once you boil something down so much you do get to the subjective point of personal taste, but we've just scratched the surface of what was wrong with the dialogue, plot cohesion (maybe more middle of the pack by video game standards at best) etc. with ME:A I like the premise, I like the wide open galaxy where truly no person has gone before, but the problem is in the telling. I still don't see how any adult who lives in a world with other adults didn't find some of the interpersonal relationships and dialogue laughably bad. It was supposed to be that though. Again bad writing is bad writing when it is not internally consistent or when it does not properly undergo some kind of arc. And the internal logic of MEA is Ryder is an awkard flirter. And another clue that this is not bad writing but intentional writing is how Kallo called it out on the bridge when Ryder was flirting with Suvi. Ryder is an isolated character who probably did not have much experience as flirting...so they flirt awkwardly. Bad writing is intentional. Not in the sense the writer(s) sit down and say "let's write a hamfisted pile of shit," but usually because there's either no one in the chain who is either allowed or vested with the authority to tell said writer that something is indeed bad. The scripts of all three Star Wars prequels are great examples of the bad things that can happen when an auteur is in his own echo chamber. also it's not an issue of Ryder feeling awkward when it comes to addressing his/her personal feelings, it's that within the given context of some of the awkward dork crap.
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