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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Mar 13, 2019 12:56:39 GMT
ME2 proves quite nicely that you don't need galactic holocaust threats to tell OK stories and make good games. Yes but when the entire triolgy's main story is about stopping a galactic holocaust threat and the middle movie goes off and dosen't address it there is a problem. Basically picture if Marvel Infinity War completely ignored the entire Thanos plot and was excursively focused around Steve just fighting every day crime. The only mention of Thanos being right at the end that he is coming. Then the entire Marvel End Game movie having to cover Thanos's entire invasion, gaining the infinity stones, snap, after effects and the hero's attempt to undo it. All in one 2 hour long movie. Or if the Lord of the Rings trilogy the book/movie Two Towers spent it's entire time simply talking about what happened to Bilbo while in Riverdale. Leaving the book/movie Return of the King to cover the entire war in Rohan, Minas Tirith, Black Gate, the entire trip to Mordor by Frodo and Sam and the Scourging of the Shire all in one book/movie. We literally didn't needed a Mass Effect 1.2. We needed an actual Mass Effect 2 that continues the plot line not simply repeating it.
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Post by burningcherry on Mar 13, 2019 14:19:44 GMT
Or ask T'soni to checkout the Mars archives? Because those Prothean idiots encrypted that exact part of the archives. When Liara became a Shadow Broker, Hackett contacted her and she found a decryption key for it. There was also the Task Force Aurora, investigating Leviathan, and research on Sovereign's remains. But in the end, no one had the Reapers as their most urgent priority, maybe except the Andromeda Initiative founders.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 13, 2019 15:43:21 GMT
Or ask T'soni to checkout the Mars archives? Because those Prothean idiots encrypted that exact part of the archives. When Liara became a Shadow Broker, Hackett contacted her and she found a decryption key for it. There was also the Task Force Aurora, investigating Leviathan, and research on Sovereign's remains. Why would that stop Anderson from asking her if she would investigate the archives? There might be something there that she can translate. So for 2 years she did nothing until Hackett contact's her, if she was the broker or she contacts him, if the dlc isn't completed. By the way, how does Hackett know she's the broker?
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Post by burningcherry on Mar 13, 2019 16:10:43 GMT
Because those Prothean idiots encrypted that exact part of the archives. When Liara became a Shadow Broker, Hackett contacted her and she found a decryption key for it. There was also the Task Force Aurora, investigating Leviathan, and research on Sovereign's remains. Why would that stop Anderson from asking her if she would investigate the archives? There might be something there that she can translate. So for 2 years she did nothing until Hackett contact's her, if she was the broker or she contacts him, if the dlc isn't completed. By the way, how does Hackett know she's the broker? Don't know, maybe he thought that they can translate the unencrypted part alone, not a rational decision rather. Liara did something between ME1 and ME2: obtained Shepard's body and gave it to Cerberus. There's a chance that they would have it even without her, but still. Unknown if Hackett knew about Liara being the Shadow Broker and who contacted whom first.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 13, 2019 16:17:55 GMT
Or ask T'soni to checkout the Mars archives? Because those Prothean idiots encrypted that exact part of the archives. When Liara became a Shadow Broker, Hackett contacted her and she found a decryption key for it. There was also the Task Force Aurora, investigating Leviathan, and research on Sovereign's remains. But in the end, no one had the Reapers as their most urgent priority, maybe except the Andromeda Initiative founders. The Shadow Broker whose identity was supposed to be secret? Then again, the fact that Wrex knew she was the SB doesn't say a lot about her. In any case, calling up Shiala would have made MORE SENSE. Shiala actually had the Prothean cipher. Liara did not. Which one is better equipped to understand Prothean tech?
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Post by themikefest on Mar 13, 2019 16:24:35 GMT
Don't know, maybe he thought that they can translate the unencrypted part alone, not a rational decision rather. Doesn't hurt to ask. She would likely agree about investigating to find out if there's anything of worth. Yeah that's it. Instead of continuing her study of the protheans, she decides its more important to take armor from a dead body to put in a display case like its a prize, and then have the dna from that dead body to place all over her apartment. I laughed in the dlc when she says she finally can help Shepard find a way to stop the reapers. Nothing was stopping her during the 2 years. That depends on if the dlc is completed. As I said, if it is, he contacts her, and if it isn't completed, she contacts him. So, how does Hackett know she's the broker, if the dlc is completed?
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Post by themikefest on Mar 13, 2019 16:25:40 GMT
Because those Prothean idiots encrypted that exact part of the archives. When Liara became a Shadow Broker, Hackett contacted her and she found a decryption key for it. There was also the Task Force Aurora, investigating Leviathan, and research on Sovereign's remains. But in the end, no one had the Reapers as their most urgent priority, maybe except the Andromeda Initiative founders. The Shadow Broker whose identity was supposed to be secret? Then again, the fact that Wrex knew she was the SB doesn't say a lot about her. In any case, calling up Shiala would have made MORE SENSE. Shiala actually had the Prothean cipher. Liara did not. Which one is better equipped to understand Prothean tech? The only problem is Shiala could be dead.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 13, 2019 16:28:13 GMT
The Shadow Broker whose identity was supposed to be secret? Then again, the fact that Wrex knew she was the SB doesn't say a lot about her. In any case, calling up Shiala would have made MORE SENSE. Shiala actually had the Prothean cipher. Liara did not. Which one is better equipped to understand Prothean tech? The only problem is Shiala could be dead. If I had my way a yahg might still be SB and Shiala would have been around for the entire MET. Or at least returned in ME3 as a squadmate.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 13, 2019 16:37:27 GMT
The only problem is Shiala could be dead. If I had my way a yahg might still be SB and Shiala would have been around for the entire MET. Or at least returned in ME3 as a squadmate. I agree about Shiala. I would have had her as the squadmate and have t'soni as someone mentions Ilos after being rescued then left on the Citadel the next time Shepard travels there. Then have her being rescued again on Mars because she was asked to checkout the archives. She ends up helping Hackett and the crucible. Shiala is recruited shortly after talking with the council.
As far as the yahg goes, I would have it that Shepard runs into t'soni who mentions that the broker agents have been watching her. Shepard ends up dealing with the broker, but instead of killing him, is able to use the power of the voice, if hogh enough to convince the broker to use his resources to help find a way to stop the reapers. At that point he will forwrd any information he has. If the power of the voice doesn't work, he is killed. Shepard downloads all the information that he/she can before destroying the ship.
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Post by burningcherry on Mar 13, 2019 16:40:41 GMT
That depends on if the dlc is completed. As I said, if it is, he contacts her, and if it isn't completed, she contacts him. So, how does Hackett know she's the broker, if the dlc is completed? Does he know? ME: Homeworlds 4 shows Liara speaking with him from her SB office but he doesn't refer to her as "Broker". If he knows, maybe Liara told it him herself.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 13, 2019 17:13:15 GMT
That depends on if the dlc is completed. As I said, if it is, he contacts her, and if it isn't completed, she contacts him. So, how does Hackett know she's the broker, if the dlc is completed? Does he know? ME: Homeworlds 4 shows Liara speaking with him from her SB office but he doesn't refer to her as "Broker". If he knows, maybe Liara told it him herself. Since I don't read the comics, I wouldn't know about that.
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Post by sassafrassa on Mar 16, 2019 3:21:15 GMT
ME2 proves quite nicely that you don't need galactic holocaust threats to tell OK stories and make good games. I'd have preferred if the whole series was about the adventures and legacy of the First Human Spectre, with no Reapers at all. You wouldn't need to rework the story of ME1 that much to remove the Reapers from it and center it around a rogue turian Spectre attempting to overthrow the Council for racial-nationalistic reasons. It'd be easy enough to write sequels centering around the batarians and their evil empire, the quarian/geth war, and then maybe wrap things up with a fourth game where you flip the first game by this time having a group of human racial supremacists terrorizing the galaxy (have them rebuild the Klendagon gun and start using it to dominate the galaxy Death Star style).
The conflicts between the various species and factions is a lot more interesting than the Reapers.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 17, 2019 20:39:26 GMT
I'd have preferred if the whole series was about the adventures and legacy of the First Human Spectre, with no Reapers at all. It wouldn't have been a bad concept but not on the 30 year timeline. As it is, the Alliance is way too powerful for a race that's only been part of galactic society for twenty-six years. Having a human Spectre in that timeline with no overriding threat to force it? Nah. Now, if they'd follow what I thought would have been a better path, it could have worked. Stretch the timeline 100-300 years in length. Have humanity be a client to the turians (after having lost the First Contact War, as they should have). Shepard proves to be exceptional and earns the appointment. This puts humanity on the road to becoming a full Council race by proving they can be protectors.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 18, 2019 18:30:43 GMT
I'd have preferred if the whole series was about the adventures and legacy of the First Human Spectre, with no Reapers at all. It wouldn't have been a bad concept but not on the 30 year timeline. As it is, the Alliance is way too powerful for a race that's only been part of galactic society for twenty-six years. Having a human Spectre in that timeline with no overriding threat to force it? Nah. Now, if they'd follow what I thought would have been a better path, it could have worked. Stretch the timeline 100-300 years in length. Have humanity be a client to the turians (after having lost the First Contact War, as they should have). Shepard proves to be exceptional and earns the appointment. This puts humanity on the road to becoming a full Council race by proving they can be protectors. Well to be fair the humans didn't "win". They won one battle through unconventional tactics and luck. The turians were about to come and bring their full might to bear until the council came in and stopped it. Also the humans did show they had force by smashing the batarians so thoroughly (yes the other council races could have done it easily but they are well estabilished and have been fighting in space for over a thousand years. So it was impressive. The humans have pushed through hard and it caught the council races off guard. So they have given humans a bone with the chance of making anderson a spectre. Same with shepard. The humans wouldn't have been on the council for a LONG time if it weren't for saren and the geth attacking the citadel. That allowed humanity to shine.
However I agree the humans got very powerful very quick. It should have been stretched out more.
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Post by ahglock on Mar 18, 2019 18:56:10 GMT
I'd have preferred if the whole series was about the adventures and legacy of the First Human Spectre, with no Reapers at all. It wouldn't have been a bad concept but not on the 30 year timeline. As it is, the Alliance is way too powerful for a race that's only been part of galactic society for twenty-six years. Having a human Spectre in that timeline with no overriding threat to force it? Nah. Now, if they'd follow what I thought would have been a better path, it could have worked. Stretch the timeline 100-300 years in length. Have humanity be a client to the turians (after having lost the First Contact War, as they should have). Shepard proves to be exceptional and earns the appointment. This puts humanity on the road to becoming a full Council race by proving they can be protectors. I don’t mind the humans holding off long enough for the council to call a stop to the war. But yeah I think the 30 year timeline is just weird. It’s like a bunch of kids wrote it and thought 30 years is a super long time.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 18, 2019 19:02:33 GMT
I don't mind the reapers at all. THey were as much part of ME as everything else. I just think they got a little too specific with them way too fast.
I'd have preferred it if the reapers had stayed a rather elusive threat in ME2. They also had pretty much the perfect setup for it actually. At the end of ME1, the reapers are still trapped in dark space, so they cannot pose a direct threat but they are this massive looming shadow. Shepard is about to search the galaxy for clues to to stop them. He does this, not because he is super special or because he's "the chosen one" or whatever but simply because with the prothean cypher, he is the best qualified. The reaper setup did allow for Shepard to go on fairly not reaper related adventures throughout ME2 and still keep the overall ark to try and find some defense against their eventual return.
Now, ME2 as it was even took advantage of this to some degree but it did it in really weird way. Shepard is not doing what he does because his ME1 expriences qualify him. Technically, you don't necessarily need Shepard to check out the collector threat. He's now put in charge by TIM because he suddenly is (to quote Miranda) "a hero, a bloody icon" (whom still, no one listens to for some reason). And he is all over the galaxy on fairly reaper-unrelated adventures but it's to assemble a new team because they decided to just let rocks fall on the old one, so to speak. And while he is out to fight a new reaper threat (the collectors), this in no way brings him closer to understanding the true scope of the reaper problem, let alone finding some sort of viable defence (a plot point, the foreshadowing of which would have greatly benefited ME3).
So IMO, ME2's problem are not the reapers. ME2's problem are the first 10 minutes of ME2.
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Post by sassafrassa on Mar 19, 2019 3:31:43 GMT
It wouldn't have been a bad concept but not on the 30 year timeline. As it is, the Alliance is way too powerful for a race that's only been part of galactic society for twenty-six years. Having a human Spectre in that timeline with no overriding threat to force it? Nah. Now, if they'd follow what I thought would have been a better path, it could have worked. Stretch the timeline 100-300 years in length. Have humanity be a client to the turians (after having lost the First Contact War, as they should have). Shepard proves to be exceptional and earns the appointment. This puts humanity on the road to becoming a full Council race by proving they can be protectors. I don't see how these two are related, though I do like the idea of humanity starting out as a Council race. As I outlined, you already have conflicts brewing that could be the basis for each game. I don't see that humanity's 'age' in the galactic community would play a part. Shepard wasn't made a Spectre because of the Reaper threat. It was just a political solution to a political problem. Though I do actually agree with you. If it were up to me I'd set Mass Effect 1 a few generations after the First Contact War, at least. If any survivors of it are still around they'd be very old men. It's weird when you consider that men like Anderson have within living memory a time when humans didn't know if other alien life was (still) out there. You'd think they'd have a harder time adjusting to that. That contact and integration with the galactic community would take decades, at least. So we agree more than we disagree.
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Post by aoibhealfae on Mar 19, 2019 11:33:03 GMT
ME2 just have poor continuity to the larger Mass Effect storyline. I wouldn't mind if its a different scifi game like the premise is decent; you're killed off and resurrected and got recruited into a terrorist organization who is maybe shady and you're assigned to kill the Collectors which is an honorable way of saving the galaxy shit or completely serving the interest of that terrorist organization that thrive on human supremacy which was also glossed over as being tolerable and accepted . (considering what happened last weekend in New Zealand, shit like this really don't age well tbh). But Shepard was already an existing character and ME2 completely ignore all the things you did in ME1; your death got glossed over. You save the Citadel and people just think you're supposed to be dead and probably lying about your death all these time. Only two of your friends returned to you while the rest barely have enough screen time because you're busy with your shiny new crew's daddy issues. You have six different origin stories and they only get acknowledge on emails. ME2 even have a Reaper corpse which conveniently self-destruct. But did Shepard send all the footage back to Citadel? About the presence of another reaper corpse in Milky way? no... Most of ME3 span on Shepard's last minute trying to gain significant allies while millions of people die each day. Stuff like this should've been done back in ME2. Talking to Wrex about curing the genophage. The Quarian admirals about the Geth. I would've love to reconnect with Alliance and trading valuable intel showing that you're not working for Cerberus but being a double agent. Talking with the Council for a chance to work together instead of expecting them to do something for you. I would've loved going to Palaven and Thessia before the Reapers invasion. But I can't can I?
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Post by sassafrassa on Mar 20, 2019 2:05:43 GMT
If Cerberus are human supremacists then so the STG are salarian supremacists. I think the issue with Cerberus isn't their goals, so much as their methods and whether or not they are accountable to anyone.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 20, 2019 5:30:55 GMT
If Cerberus are human supremacists then so the STG are salarian supremacists. I think the issue with Cerberus isn't their goals, so much as their methods and whether or not they are accountable to anyone. I don't think so. Let's compare the wikis on them.
Special Tasks Group: The Special Tasks Group (STG) is a salarian espionage organization, usually deployed by the Citadel Council. STG operators work in independent cells, performing dangerous missions such as counterterrorism, infiltration, reconnaissance, assassination, and sabotage.
Cerberus: Cerberus is a human-survivalist paramilitary group led by the enigmatic Illusive Man. Cerberus' core belief is that humans deserve a greater role in the galactic community, and that the Systems Alliance is too hamstrung by law and public opinion to stand up effectively to the other Citadel races. Cerberus supports the principle that any methods of advancing humanity's ascension are entirely justified, including illegal or dangerous experimentation, terrorist activities, sabotage and assassination. Cerberus operatives accept that these methods are brutal, but believe history will vindicate them. Nevertheless, both the Systems Alliance and the Citadel Council have declared Cerberus to be a terrorist organization and will prosecute identified Cerberus agents accordingly.
We know the Alliance engages in all sorts of espionage activities. Shepard engaged in some of them during UNC missions in ME1.
Just for the heck of it...
Spectres: Spectres (Special Tactics and Reconnaissance) are agents entrusted with extraordinary authority by the Citadel Council, including the power of life and death over the inhabitants of the galaxy. They form an elite group selected from a number of different species, and their primary responsibility is to preserve galactic stability by whatever means necessary. Though they are generally considered as being above the law and have complete discretion as to the methods used to accomplish their mission, an individual's status as a Spectre can be revoked by the Council in a case of gross misconduct. Spectres work either alone or in small groups according to the nature of a particular task and to their personal preference.
Asari Commando: Asari Commandos, another term for asari huntresses, are powerful asari biotics who form the elite of the asari military. Often in the maiden stages of their lives, they usually fight in small groups using guerrilla tactics. Some asari commandos were among the first to be chosen as Spectres.
Huntress activities are typically sealed for 5 millennia, although the commando may choose to share her experiences at her own discretion.
The N7 is too lengthy to post but it's worth checking out. They're special forces and so aligned with that of other races. Cerberus are a separate terrorist organization. Espionage and terrorism are not the same thing.
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Post by burningcherry on Mar 20, 2019 13:30:38 GMT
As much as I don't trust the salarians, I don't believe that their STG are this bad.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 20, 2019 14:58:39 GMT
In ME2, we hear a lot of people, including TIM and most of the Normandy crew putting a very soft face on Cerberus' goals and stance towards other races. However, at the end of ME3 (at Cronos Station), we also learn the TIM very deliberately wanted to present this face to Shepard in order to make him/her accept working with them more easily. It is also revealed that the crewmembers of the SR2 were hand picked by TIM because their views on Cerberus were more "romantic" (such as Kelly Chambers for example). This is actually very consistent with the tactics of may populist hate groups today. You keep a more moderate wing going, that is still somewhat socially acceptable and you use their more socially acceptable statements to muddy the waters, relativize the hate speech or actions of the more hardcore members and generally gradually move the goal posts of what is acceptable. TIM effectively puts you in an opinion bubble right from the start of ME2 (at least before you start recruiting you team). I'm sure he also has a facebook group. So maybe, going back to what aoibhealfae said, ME2 has aged well in the sense that it practically let's you play a problem that is very relevant these days.
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Post by opuspace on Mar 20, 2019 15:33:29 GMT
In ME2, we hear a lot of people, including TIM and most of the Normandy crew putting a very soft face on Cerberus' goals and stance towards other races. However, at the end of ME3 (at Cronos Station), we also learn the TIM very deliberately wanted to present this face to Shepard in order to make him/her accept working with them more easily. It is also revealed that the crewmembers of the SR2 were hand picked by TIM because their views on Cerberus were more "romantic" (such as Kelly Chambers for example). This is actually very consistent with the tactics of may populist hate groups today. You keep a more moderate wing going, that is still somewhat socially acceptable and you use their more socially acceptable statements to muddy the waters, relativize the hate speech or actions of the more hardcore members and generally gradually move the goal posts of what is acceptable. TIM effectively puts you in an opinion bubble right from the start of ME2 (at least before you start recruiting you team). I'm sure he also has a facebook group. So maybe, going back to what aoibhealfae said, ME2 has aged well in the sense that it practically let's you play a problem that is very relevant these days. It's fairly easy to like someone when they give you a lot of things you need or like and tell you you're awesome and special. The Illusive Man sure got patronizing though if you roleplay a Shepard who sees through the bribery and flattery. Problem with Cerberus was that humanity already was advancing at a ridiculously fast pace so it weakened Cerberus' stance and made them look like entitled human supremacists.
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themikefest
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Post by themikefest on Mar 20, 2019 16:08:15 GMT
Don't forget that the clown called Anderson says its up to Shepard to find a way to stop the reapers. He also doesn't give much thought about the missing colonists. Then he says he thought Shepard was dead. That tells me the Alliance never made any attempt to confirm Shepard is dead. Of course it didn't help that some stupid asari failed to inform them that Shepard's body is in the hands of Cerberus. Then there's the one's who were with Shepard chasing Saren. What did they do? They all turned into ****roaches scattering all over the galaxy like nothing ever happened.
So yes, it was easy for my Shepard to work with Cerberus. My Shepard flips the bird at the Alliance, and Anderson.
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burningcherry
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burningcherry
Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by burningcherry on Mar 20, 2019 16:10:44 GMT
I believe the reason why we never learn anything solid about Cerberus's ultimate goals in ME2 is because Bioware writers themselves didn't know it at that point.
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