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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 20, 2019 17:45:36 GMT
Then he says he thought Shepard was dead. That tells me the Alliance never made any attempt to confirm Shepard is dead. Well ... but Shepard was dead, so if they sent a probe or something to scan for life signs, they would have confirmed it. Sending more than a probe could have been a bit of an issue because Alchera is deep in the Terminus systems. And after getting Joker's report, who basically saw Shepard remain on an exploding wreck without any escape pods left, well, I am not sure I blame them for declaring Shepard KIA.
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Post by burningcherry on Mar 20, 2019 17:55:15 GMT
Alliance was sloppy about many things, but not the colonists. After (presumably, see ME: Incursion) the first big attack, they started arming colonies even technically outside of their jurisdiction with cannons strong enough to take down a cruiser-sized ship.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 20, 2019 18:12:43 GMT
Then he says he thought Shepard was dead. That tells me the Alliance never made any attempt to confirm Shepard is dead. Well ... but Shepard was dead, so if they sent a probe or something to scan for life signs, they would have confirmed it. Sending more than a probe could have been a bit of an issue because Alchera is deep in the Terminus systems. And after getting Joker's report, who basically saw Shepard remain on an exploding wreck without any escape pods left, well, I am not sure I blame them for declaring Shepard KIA. Interesting how the Blue Suns? were able to recover Shepard's body on the planet where the helmet is found that the Alliance couldn't have found that area as well. If they got Joker's report, they would have been in the area looking since Joker did not see Shepard die.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 20, 2019 19:01:24 GMT
Well ... but Shepard was dead, so if they sent a probe or something to scan for life signs, they would have confirmed it. Sending more than a probe could have been a bit of an issue because Alchera is deep in the Terminus systems. And after getting Joker's report, who basically saw Shepard remain on an exploding wreck without any escape pods left, well, I am not sure I blame them for declaring Shepard KIA. Interesting how the Blue Suns? were able to recover Shepard's body on the planet where the helmet is found that the Alliance couldn't have found that area as well. If they got Joker's report, they would have been in the area looking since Joker did not see Shepard die. Lot's of assumptions there. You don't know how the crew members that escaped got back to the Alliance. Was there really a ship there to pick them up or did they get rescued by someone from the Terminus who they payed to get back? Or is it mentioned anywhere how that happened? (if so, I don't remember.)
And yea, Joker did not see Shepard die but he did see him outside of the only escape pod left (the one he was sitting in) half a second before the rest of the ship exploded into little pieces. Especially if it took him quite some time to get back to the Alliance to make a report, it would be quite a stretch to believe he'd still be alive. ... And again, that would be right. Shepard was dead.
As for the Blue Suns, they operate in the Terminus anyway, they would have less problems (and scruples) hanging around there than the Alliance.Not to mention the fact that they only recovered Shepard for the Shadow Broker, who wanted to give the corpse to the Collectors. And the Shadow Broker is know to have massive resources available to him, so if he really wanted Shepard, that would give the Blue Suns involved a whole lot more weight to their operation.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 20, 2019 19:42:35 GMT
Why are you bringing up the crew?
If joker gave the report to the Alliance, they would have known the SR1's last position since Joker did put out a mayday while being attacked. With Alchera being the closest planet to where the attack took place, it wouldn't be hard to assume that the wreckage ended up on the planet. They may not have been there in time to recover Shepard's body, but they could at least assume someone took the body since the helmet was left behind. They also would recover the dogtags and whatever is left of the bodies of the one's who were killed.
Overall the Alliance made no attempt to search for Shepard's body and/or didn't care.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 20, 2019 19:48:50 GMT
As I said, why send a manned mission (more than some scanner probe) into the middle of the Terminus when no one there is alive?
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Post by themikefest on Mar 20, 2019 20:04:19 GMT
To recover the dead so the families can have closure instead of two years later so that Shepard can have some flashback in a dlc. The other thing is to investigate who/what destroyed the SR1.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Mar 20, 2019 22:34:46 GMT
To recover the dead so the families can have closure instead of two years later so that Shepard can have some flashback in a dlc. The other thing is to investigate who/what destroyed the SR1. Yea is that why post every battle in WW2 US battle ships would extend massive fishing nets between ships to pick up all the dead bodies. They also sent subs down to the sunken ships to recover the bodies trapped in the ships.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2019 22:59:58 GMT
Why are you bringing up the crew? If joker gave the report to the Alliance, they would have known the SR1's last position since Joker did put out a mayday while being attacked. With Alchera being the closest planet to where the attack took place, it wouldn't be hard to assume that the wreckage ended up on the planet. They may not have been there in time to recover Shepard's body, but they could at least assume someone took the body since the helmet was left behind. They also would recover the dogtags and whatever is left of the bodies of the one's who were killed. Overall the Alliance made no attempt to search for Shepard's body and/or didn't care. Since Alchera has an atmosphere (confirmed by the presence of the Aurora), I would have assumed that the wreckage and Shepard would have burned up in the atmosphere before ever reaching the surface of the planet.
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Post by sassafrassa on Mar 21, 2019 4:26:58 GMT
I don't think so. Let's compare the wikis on them. The wiki shows precisely what I said; that they are the same. The STG commits immoral research and murder in the name of the salarian species and Cerberus does the same in the name of human species. What else is the STG fighting for if not to safeguard and advance salarian interest and thus power? You need influence to protect and advance your interests. We see direct evidence of this in the game. Cerberus wanting humans to have more influence on the galactic stage, or even the dominant position, is the same thing. All species want whatever power they can get. If they didn't they'd have never persisted long enough to develop space travel. Once again, I think one can take serious issue with how effective or ineffective Cerberus is, whether they are a good or bad thing for humanity and its interests in the long run, and whether or not they have any real right to put themselves forward this way seeing as they are not officially sanctioned by the recognized representative of humanity. However that's a separate issue. The STG has official backing (mind you the League of One had official backing too) and Cerberus doesn't. Only primary difference between them.
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Post by sassafrassa on Mar 21, 2019 4:31:29 GMT
As much as I don't trust the salarians, I don't believe that their STG are this bad.
Yes, I recall that line, but also not even sourced in the text. This book came out before ME2. So why doesn't Shepard know about this? Why isn't it mentioned in ME2 or ME3? Why isn't it ever alluded to in TIM's own internal thoughts in the third book? I'm inclined to dismiss that quote since it has nothing else backing it up. I'd chalk it up to Kahlee's knee-jerk reaction to Cerberus' rather ruthless and amoral operating principals such as using spies and running tests on children. If you want some better examples of this behavior then I point you to my "The Council Is Bad" thread. Now THERE is a ruthless, utterly self-intersted, and dangerous group of people.
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Post by sassafrassa on Mar 21, 2019 4:49:50 GMT
So maybe, going back to what aoibhealfae said, ME2 has aged well in the sense that it practically let's you play a problem that is very relevant these days. Sure, that would be true if Mass Effect 2 was about Shepard fighting back against the giants of technology, information, media, and governments manipulating the public by controlling discourse. Mind you this is the same series that introduced us to the Spectres; elite government agents who can kill or torture you or invade your privacy at any time for any reason if they want to. Mind you, the game wants us to see these agents as heroes and not as villains to be fought against. The Council are the GOOD guys even if they are frustratingly bureaucratic. Mass Effect 2 would be exposing us to modern problems if it was dealing with gradual encroachment on freedom of expression, thought, and scientific freedom. Or perhaps if it was about mashing different cultures with values and customs and having them clash but then disallowing any real discussion of the issue much less tolerating any voices calling for a reversal of this trend, much less bothering to ask if anyone wanted this conflict in the first place. The closest we get to this is Samara's conflict with the cops on Illium, but even that is just presented as a hypothetical since the asari cops are only worried about an innocent human getting killed, in theory. Mass Effect 2 isn't really written well enough to pose any genuinely challenging or pertinent questions. It's shallow. Oh, it tries, but it simplifies things too much, which coaxes most people away from thinking deeply about any issues being presented. Take Project Overlord for instance. It's hard to have a genuinely grey discussion on the merits or moral costs of the project because David isn't just used as a tool, possibly against his will, but he is being literally tortured both physically and mentally. Why exactly did the science in-universe demand that he be hoisted up on the cross and impaled with his eyes permanently held open like that? Would the climax be any different if after a few hours of hearing his screaming voice we reach the room he resides him only to find him laying on a hospital bed, sedated, only partially conscious? That make would make more sense. I cannot imagine any reason why he needed to be impaled all over his body except that the artist thought it made him look like Jesus Christ. It's very shocking, but it's cheap to do that. What if David wasn't suffering at all, but was still being used to control the geth? You'd still have a tricky question to answer. Is this technology safe to use? Is it moral to use? Who should use it? What are the benefits and what are the risks? After a bad thing has been done and can't be undone, is it moral to use the fruits of that evil act to craft good acts? IE: do you use research gained through horrific means to do good or not? Does using it justify the inhumane research that was done? To be fair, I guess ME2 does tackle that one, though I still don't think it goes far enough or looks at the issue very fairly or with any depth. Perhaps the implications as to why the krogan can't be helped but with genetic manipulation has too many uncomfortable implications? As I said, what Cerberus does and what the STG does and what the Spectres do are no different. It's right there in the wiki but you have to read it yourself and think about it yourself and make the connection, yourself. Do the games ever bring up the similarities between these organizations so that Shepard can pontificate about it, so that we the player can do the same? No. Even though it is blatantly obvious I doubt most people ever think much about how sinister the STG and Spectres are because they game never explicitly tells you to like it does Cerberus. Now its too bad because ME2 truly COULD have done this. In fact, supplemental material for ME2 does talk about Cerberus using its agents in the media to manipulate the public and pass information between cells. The second novel has them murder a politician to advance their cause, which kind of subverts the whole political process. However again, this isn't in the games at all. Even if it were, it ought to be present this way; Cerberus is manipulating us through the media... who else is? Cerberus is influence the government with bribes and lobbying? Who else is? Cerberus is conducting inhumane experiments... who else is? Cerberus is assassinating people! Who else is? There is room for depth there.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 21, 2019 6:40:19 GMT
The wiki shows precisely what I said; that they are the same. The STG commits immoral research and murder in the name of the salarian species and Cerberus does the same in the name of human species. What else is the STG fighting for if not to safeguard and advance salarian interest and thus power? You need influence to protect and advance your interests. We see direct evidence of this in the game. That's pretty standard for any special ops organization, which includes N7s. That's not spiciest; it's survival. Cerberus isn't looking to keep humanity in the game. They're trying to dominate the galaxy and potentially remove all opposition from the field. I'm not sure how spec ops and terrorism line up in your world.
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Post by burningcherry on Mar 21, 2019 7:20:24 GMT
As much as I don't trust the salarians, I don't believe that their STG are this bad. Yes, I recall that line, but also not even sourced in the text. This book came out before ME2. So why doesn't Shepard know about this? Why isn't it mentioned in ME2 or ME3? Why isn't it ever alluded to in TIM's own internal thoughts in the third book? I'm inclined to dismiss that quote since it has nothing else backing it up. I'd chalk it up to Kahlee's knee-jerk reaction to Cerberus' rather ruthless and amoral operating principals such as using spies and running tests on children. If you want some better examples of this behavior then I point you to my "The Council Is Bad" thread. Now THERE is a ruthless, utterly self-intersted, and dangerous group of people.
It's post-ME2, from when someone needed to finally define what Cerberus is. The salarians are nowhere near this, or at least not in the short run: their current military doctrine is to provide the turians with intelligence and let them do the fighting.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Mar 21, 2019 12:38:10 GMT
I don't think so. Let's compare the wikis on them. The wiki shows precisely what I said; that they are the same. The STG commits immoral research and murder in the name of the salarian species and Cerberus does the same in the name of human species. What else is the STG fighting for if not to safeguard and advance salarian interest and thus power? You need influence to protect and advance your interests. We see direct evidence of this in the game. Cerberus wanting humans to have more influence on the galactic stage, or even the dominant position, is the same thing. All species want whatever power they can get. If they didn't they'd have never persisted long enough to develop space travel. Once again, I think one can take serious issue with how effective or ineffective Cerberus is, whether they are a good or bad thing for humanity and its interests in the long run, and whether or not they have any real right to put themselves forward this way seeing as they are not officially sanctioned by the recognized representative of humanity. However that's a separate issue. The STG has official backing (mind you the League of One had official backing too) and Cerberus doesn't. Only primary difference between them. Special Ops that help protect their respective government's position and power and a group that wants to completely over throw all other governments not quite the same.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2019 15:22:53 GMT
The wiki shows precisely what I said; that they are the same. The STG commits immoral research and murder in the name of the salarian species and Cerberus does the same in the name of human species. What else is the STG fighting for if not to safeguard and advance salarian interest and thus power? You need influence to protect and advance your interests. We see direct evidence of this in the game. Cerberus wanting humans to have more influence on the galactic stage, or even the dominant position, is the same thing. All species want whatever power they can get. If they didn't they'd have never persisted long enough to develop space travel. Once again, I think one can take serious issue with how effective or ineffective Cerberus is, whether they are a good or bad thing for humanity and its interests in the long run, and whether or not they have any real right to put themselves forward this way seeing as they are not officially sanctioned by the recognized representative of humanity. However that's a separate issue. The STG has official backing (mind you the League of One had official backing too) and Cerberus doesn't. Only primary difference between them. Special Ops that help protect their respective government's position and power and a group that wants to completely over throw all other governments not quite the same. Yeah... it's like the difference between a pirate and a privateer... which is only that one is sanctioned by its government and the other is not. It doesn't arbitrarily make the pirate or privateer any better a person... it makes the government that sanctions such actions worse than the government that refuses to sanction such things.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Mar 21, 2019 18:48:01 GMT
Special Ops that help protect their respective government's position and power and a group that wants to completely over throw all other governments not quite the same. Yeah... it's like the difference between a pirate and a privateer... which is only that one is sanctioned by its government and the other is not. It doesn't arbitrarily make the pirate or privateer any better a person... it makes the government that sanctions such actions worse than the government that refuses to sanction such things. Ok name 3 times STG specifically tried to undermine or over throw the Alliance, Turian and/or Asari government.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2019 19:04:58 GMT
Yeah... it's like the difference between a pirate and a privateer... which is only that one is sanctioned by its government and the other is not. It doesn't arbitrarily make the pirate or privateer any better a person... it makes the government that sanctions such actions worse than the government that refuses to sanction such things. Ok name 3 times STG specifically tried to undermine or over throw the Alliance, Turian and/or Asari government. Why? It's still irrelevant. Just because their government sanctions what they do doesn't arbitrarily make what they do morally better than what Cerberus does. Both experiment on species and alter them (immoral research) and both do commit murders. The fact that they are sanctioned to do so by their government doesn't make those actions any less immoral. Perhaps, their government is in need of being overthrown and replaced by a more moral government... a government that doesn't sanction immoral research and murder. Were the SS any more "moral" in their actions just because those actions were sanctioned by Hitler's government?
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Post by ahglock on Mar 21, 2019 19:16:38 GMT
The wiki shows precisely what I said; that they are the same. The STG commits immoral research and murder in the name of the salarian species and Cerberus does the same in the name of human species. What else is the STG fighting for if not to safeguard and advance salarian interest and thus power? You need influence to protect and advance your interests. We see direct evidence of this in the game. That's pretty standard for any special ops organization, which includes N7s. That's not spiciest; it's survival. Cerberus isn't looking to keep humanity in the game. They're trying to dominate the galaxy and potentially remove all opposition from the field. I'm not sure how spec ops and terrorism line up in your world. I'm not sure its the same, but there is a big difference in that the Turians, Salralians and Asaris are on the top and have been for centuries if not millennia. What exactly would the Salarians be trying to dominate, as they already do? So is there a big difference between immoral actions to gain power vs immoral actions to hold onto your power?
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Mar 21, 2019 20:53:11 GMT
Ok name 3 times STG specifically tried to undermine or over throw the Alliance, Turian and/or Asari government. Why? It's still irrelevant. Just because their government sanctions what they do doesn't arbitrarily make what they do morally better than what Cerberus does. Both experiment on species and alter them (immoral research) and both do commit murders. The fact that they are sanctioned to do so by their government doesn't make those actions any less immoral. Perhaps, their government is in need of being overthrown and replaced by a more moral government... a government that doesn't sanction immoral research and murder. Were the SS any more "moral" in their actions just because those actions were sanctioned by Hitler's government? Oh I see you are taking the stance that killing a terrorist who wants to detonate a bomb and kill 100 people is the same thing as just walking up and killing some random person on the street. Yea that kindergarten level pure black and white morality stuff doesn't work in the real world.
What experiments do they do specifically. I've been trying to find specific details but come up short. The only one I can find is the standard Genophage and that was created as a direct result of the Krogan waging a bloody war against them.
Against Cerberus we have confirmed kidnapping of children and sadistic torment and surgery on them to boost their biotic potential. All to build the perfect human biotic weapon to be used against all non humans in the galaxy.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 21, 2019 21:21:51 GMT
That's pretty standard for any special ops organization, which includes N7s. That's not spiciest; it's survival. Cerberus isn't looking to keep humanity in the game. They're trying to dominate the galaxy and potentially remove all opposition from the field. I'm not sure how spec ops and terrorism line up in your world. I'm not sure its the same, but there is a big difference in that the Turians, Salralians and Asaris are on the top and have been for centuries if not millennia. What exactly would the Salarians be trying to dominate, as they already do? So is there a big difference between immoral actions to gain power vs immoral actions to hold onto your power? So...26 years on the galactic scene and humanity think it "deserves" to be at the top of the chain? I think Shepard said it best to Khalisah. Paraphrasing, he said something about people assuming they deserve respect and not understanding it's a thing to be earned. TIM feels it's owed humanity without putting in the leg work to get there. Make alliances, develop technology, rise into power. Twenty-six years after showing up, humanity got a Spectre and a place on the Council. The turians took 200 years, and even then only after stopping the krogan.
The krogan weren't offered a seat, even after the Rachni Wars. The quarians, hanar, volus, elcor and batarians have been around about 2500 years with no Council membership. Drell? 700 years.
Cerberus isn't trying to find its place in society. It's trying to dominate it, even after humanity began to fully integrate.
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Post by burningcherry on Mar 21, 2019 21:29:08 GMT
That STG don't want to exterminate or subjugate all non-salarians but they have some persistent alliances is already a qualitative difference between them and late Cerberus.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 21, 2019 21:37:09 GMT
The difference is: Cerberus is crossing the line. The STG is just holding it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2019 21:49:56 GMT
Why? It's still irrelevant. Just because their government sanctions what they do doesn't arbitrarily make what they do morally better than what Cerberus does. Both experiment on species and alter them (immoral research) and both do commit murders. The fact that they are sanctioned to do so by their government doesn't make those actions any less immoral. Perhaps, their government is in need of being overthrown and replaced by a more moral government... a government that doesn't sanction immoral research and murder. Were the SS any more "moral" in their actions just because those actions were sanctioned by Hitler's government? Oh I see you are taking the stance that killing a terrorist who wants to detonate a bomb and kill 100 people is the same thing as just walking up and killing some random person on the street. Yea that kindergarten level pure black and white morality stuff doesn't work in the real world.
What experiments do they do specifically. I've been trying to find specific details but come up short. The only one I can find is the standard Genophage and that was created as a direct result of the Krogan waging a bloody war against them.
Against Cerberus we have confirmed kidnapping of children and sadistic torment and surgery on them to boost their biotic potential. All to build the perfect human biotic weapon to be used against all non humans in the galaxy.
The genophage was deployed with the intent of disrupting the reproductive ability of an identifiable group. It also disrupted their ability to maintain a cohesive government (to use Maelon's words, it kept them in barbarism). Like it or not, it is an act the fits the UN 1948 definition of genocide. In ME3, we are shown clearly that the STG captures and experiments on yahg, varren in order to uplift them so they might, in the future, be able to use them to wage war on their behalf. This is no different than what Cerberus is doing trying to create their own brand of "super-soldier." It's an act that is no more morally correct when done by the STG than it is when done by Cerberus. The fact that the STG does this with the sanction of their government does not make it any more morally correct. Both organizations are doing the exact same things. It is not a comparison based on mass murder on one hand and just shooting one person in the street on the other... it's comparing the same action (experimenting on species) done for the same purpose (creating shock troops). That action is not made more morally correct just because a government sanctions it.
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February 2018
ahglock
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
ShinobiKillfist
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Post by ahglock on Mar 21, 2019 22:03:32 GMT
I'm not sure its the same, but there is a big difference in that the Turians, Salralians and Asaris are on the top and have been for centuries if not millennia. What exactly would the Salarians be trying to dominate, as they already do? So is there a big difference between immoral actions to gain power vs immoral actions to hold onto your power? So...26 years on the galactic scene and humanity think it "deserves" to be at the top of the chain? I think Shepard said it best to Khalisah. Paraphrasing, he said something about people assuming they deserve respect and not understanding it's a thing to be earned. TIM feels it's owed humanity without putting in the leg work to get there. Make alliances, develop technology, rise into power. Twenty-six years after showing up, humanity got a Spectre and a place on the Council. The turians took 200 years, and even then only after stopping the krogan.
The krogan weren't offered a seat, even after the Rachni Wars. The quarians, hanar, volus, elcor and batarians have been around about 2500 years with no Council membership. Drell? 700 years.
Cerberus isn't trying to find its place in society. It's trying to dominate it, even after humanity began to fully integrate.
I'm not claiming humans deserve to be on top. I'm stating doing evil shit to gain power isn't particularly worse than doing evil shit to maintain your stranglehold on power.
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