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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Mar 21, 2019 22:21:12 GMT
Oh I see you are taking the stance that killing a terrorist who wants to detonate a bomb and kill 100 people is the same thing as just walking up and killing some random person on the street. Yea that kindergarten level pure black and white morality stuff doesn't work in the real world.
What experiments do they do specifically. I've been trying to find specific details but come up short. The only one I can find is the standard Genophage and that was created as a direct result of the Krogan waging a bloody war against them.
Against Cerberus we have confirmed kidnapping of children and sadistic torment and surgery on them to boost their biotic potential. All to build the perfect human biotic weapon to be used against all non humans in the galaxy.
The genophage was deployed with the intent of disrupting the reproductive ability of an identifiable group. It also disrupted their ability to maintain a cohesive government (to use Maelon's words, it kept them in barbarism). Like it or not, it is an act the fits the UN 1948 definition of genocide. In ME3, we are shown clearly that the STG captures and experiments on yahg, varren in order to uplift them so they might, in the future, be able to use them to wage war on their behalf. This is no different than what Cerberus is doing trying to create their own brand of "super-soldier." It's an act that is no more morally correct when done by the STG than it is when done by Cerberus. The fact that the STG does this with the sanction of their government does not make it any more morally correct. Both organizations are doing the exact same things. It is not a comparison based on mass murder on one hand and just shooting one person in the street on the other... it's comparing the same action (experimenting on species) done for the same purpose (creating shock troops). That action is not made more morally correct just because a government sanctions it.
And the Krogan were just minding their own business on Tuchunka sitting around butting heads and sharing a cold brew right? How totally and completely unwarranted and evil to just attack an entire race just minding their own businesses.
Was the Yahg being experimented on? Yahg are extremely violent creatures that could go toe to toe with a Krogan. Being kept in a container is to keep them safe from the Yahg. I don't remember though please correct me any statements, conversations or data entries that mention them experimenting on Yahg. The intent with the Yahg was to be secretly uplifted by Salarians to serve as a strike force that can give Salarians full deniability if caught. How ever given the actions of the Shadow Broker I doubt that would have come to pass because they would be dealing with a race far more then just brute force. I do remember them talking about Varren but they are like the large violent Norwegian brown rat of the ME universe. They have spread across the galaxy and are extremely adaptive to different worlds. With Jack's one even developing mild biotic capabilities due to being bred on a planet with a high element zero level.
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Post by cloud9 on Mar 22, 2019 6:11:04 GMT
Given that the council went in full denial there wasn't much shepard could do to fight the reapers except fight the collectors. In doing so He took away the collectors from the reapers arsenal and stopped a big reaper from being finished. In the end what else can be done but build ships and train more men and shepard couldn't do that by himself since he didn't have the money or influence since everyone had said soverign was a geth ship. It's alot like why Garrus went to omega to be a vigilante. There was nothing he could do fight the reapers. Maybe I am missing something but shepard accomplished alot in ME2 and if you saved the collector base then if it had been used right it would have made a BIG difference but cerberus became stupid.
Maybe someone can explain this to me.
The story is a big mess is all. None of it makes sense and it never affects the outcome of the Reapers. |
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 22, 2019 13:49:57 GMT
Why are you bringing up the crew? If joker gave the report to the Alliance, they would have known the SR1's last position since Joker did put out a mayday while being attacked. With Alchera being the closest planet to where the attack took place, it wouldn't be hard to assume that the wreckage ended up on the planet. They may not have been there in time to recover Shepard's body, but they could at least assume someone took the body since the helmet was left behind. They also would recover the dogtags and whatever is left of the bodies of the one's who were killed. Overall the Alliance made no attempt to search for Shepard's body and/or didn't care. Since Alchera has an atmosphere (confirmed by the presence of the Aurora), I would have assumed that the wreckage and Shepard would have burned up in the atmosphere before ever reaching the surface of the planet. You would think. Must be one hell of a strong armor which means weapons fire that can penetrate the armor can probably incinerate that flying piece of tinfoil from ME2.
There are contradictions. In ME3 they say that Shepard's helmet is all that kept his brain intact. Yet we find said helmet on Alchera. Would they really remove the think holding him together and just leave it there? Seems unlikely. Since he was dead there was no reason not to remove Shepard as is and only take the helmet off once they had secured the body. Beyond that, would Liara, with her ghoulish fascination with all things Shepard, really leave the helmet behind? It's either a contradiction or it was placed there for Reasons.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2019 14:38:26 GMT
The genophage was deployed with the intent of disrupting the reproductive ability of an identifiable group. It also disrupted their ability to maintain a cohesive government (to use Maelon's words, it kept them in barbarism). Like it or not, it is an act the fits the UN 1948 definition of genocide. In ME3, we are shown clearly that the STG captures and experiments on yahg, varren in order to uplift them so they might, in the future, be able to use them to wage war on their behalf. This is no different than what Cerberus is doing trying to create their own brand of "super-soldier." It's an act that is no more morally correct when done by the STG than it is when done by Cerberus. The fact that the STG does this with the sanction of their government does not make it any more morally correct. Both organizations are doing the exact same things. It is not a comparison based on mass murder on one hand and just shooting one person in the street on the other... it's comparing the same action (experimenting on species) done for the same purpose (creating shock troops). That action is not made more morally correct just because a government sanctions it.
And the Krogan were just minding their own business on Tuchunka sitting around butting heads and sharing a cold brew right? How totally and completely unwarranted and evil to just attack an entire race just minding their own businesses.
Was the Yahg being experimented on? Yahg are extremely violent creatures that could go toe to toe with a Krogan. Being kept in a container is to keep them safe from the Yahg. I don't remember though please correct me any statements, conversations or data entries that mention them experimenting on Yahg. The intent with the Yahg was to be secretly uplifted by Salarians to serve as a strike force that can give Salarians full deniability if caught. How ever given the actions of the Shadow Broker I doubt that would have come to pass because they would be dealing with a race far more then just brute force. I do remember them talking about Varren but they are like the large violent Norwegian brown rat of the ME universe. They have spread across the galaxy and are extremely adaptive to different worlds. With Jack's one even developing mild biotic capabilities due to being bred on a planet with a high element zero level.
You might justify going to war against the krogan, but crossing the line to reproductive interference puts it into the realm of genocide pursuant to the UN's 1948 definition... like it or not.
Also, 'preparing to uplift" = "experimenting." We know that the Yahg are sentient beings since the Shadow Broker is clearly sentient and intelligent. Being kept in a cage and "prepared for uplift" is at the very least immoral confinement. Using them as "shock troops" is also reprehensible regardless of their abilities to match fighting strength with the Krogan. We really don't know that state to which the Salarians have uplifted the varren... at some point, in order to become useful, the Salarians will make them sentient... and that would make their treatment after that point immoral as well.
Of course, you are welcome to rationalize your own decisions however you see fit. The game's vagueness allows for that.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 22, 2019 15:12:59 GMT
The salarians are shady for sure. That doesn't make Cerberus better though.
For the genophage, I am not sure I remember this right but isn't it mentioned somewhere that the salarians created it but wanted to use i as a deterrent and then the turians deployed it?
I will say, that in both of the really immoral cases of salarian action, the krogan uplift and the genophage, their entire species stood on the brink of extinction (from the rachni or the krogan) and they acted in a last measure defensive capacity. I am not sure humans would do any different if it came down to the survival of the species.
The problem with the salarains is that - probably because of these experiences - they tend to now act mostly preemptively and that is a whole different scale of moral grays. The Yahg research we see on Sur'Kesh as well as Mordin's preemptive genophage modifications are very questionable for sure.
On the other hand, Cerberus is certainly not better and possibly worse. Of course, you could argue that TIM also only generates preemptive measures that would only be used in a defensive capacity (like the husk army, the thorian creeper army, the rachni army (all ME1), the geth army (Overlord), the super biotics (the Pragia kids), the reaper research (ME2/3, Retribution).
However, the Cerberus manifesto suggests that all these forces were created to advance their agenda of domination over everyone else, so I don't trust TIM. And in ME3, when he actually has troops at his disposal he starts unprovoked conflicts in many theatres (now you culd say he's indoctrinated but still, this is in line with Cerberus' agenda).
Another reason why I think Cerberus is an inch worse than the salarians is because they tend to do all their cruel experiments on their own species. Whether that makes a difference or not is up to everyone to decide but the salarians at least seem to do what they do to preserve their kind while Cerberus seems to do what they do mainly to advance their ideology.
So yea, both are very shady organizations but if I had to put them on morality scale, Cerberus would rank below the salarians.
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Post by opuspace on Mar 22, 2019 16:06:13 GMT
The difference I see between STG's actions with the Krogan Rebellions and Cerberus' is that the genophage was an act of self defense that still allowed for the Krogan to have a chance to avoid being wiped out. Mordin has mentioned that it would have been far easier to sterilize them outright than to adjust their birthrates. Bakara herself disputes the genophage bringing down krogan society, saying that it was internal conflict that made them unable to cooperate long enough to make a workable society. Even Wrex himself had almost gotten killed by his father for pushing for a change beyond pointless warfare.
Cerberus threw Alliance soldiers at a thresher maw because...test results? They tortured and experimented on kids for biotic aptitude and got...a destroyed facility and a traumatized powerful individual who wrecked havoc on the galaxy. They nearly endangered the entire galaxy with traumatized Rachni in their pursuit of cannon fodder. They wiped out humans to convert them into husks to watch the process, they nearly endanger the galaxy with Overlord even though Shepard could have already made contact with the Geth, it all adds up to a lot of pointlessly stupid ruthless tactics that come off as sloppy and crude for some vague threat to humanity when in truth they've done more to endanger their own species than the Council could pull off. Humanity had already been saved by the Council from the First Contact War, they got a human Spectre, a spot on the Council. So it just ends up making Cerberus look like a group of idiots who are sabotaging what progress humanity has already made.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2019 16:13:39 GMT
The salarians are shady for sure. That doesn't make Cerberus better though. For the genophage, I am not sure I remember this right but isn't it mentioned somewhere that the salarians created it but wanted to use i as a deterrent and then the turians deployed it? I will say, that in both of the really immoral cases of salarian action, the krogan uplift and the genophage, their entire species stood on the brink of extinction (from the rachni or the krogan) and they acted in a last measure defensive capacity. I am not sure humans would do any different if it came down to the survival of the species. The problem with the salarains is that - probably because of these experiences - they tend to now act mostly preemptively and that is a whole different scale of moral grays. The Yahg research we see on Sur'Kesh as well as Mordin's preemptive genophage modifications are very questionable for sure. On the other hand, Cerberus is certainly not better and possibly worse. Of course, you could argue that TIM also only generates preemptive measures that would only be used in a defensive capacity (like the husk army, the thorian creeper army, the rachni army (all ME1), the geth army (Overlord), the super biotics (the Pragia kids), the reaper research (ME2/3, Retribution). However, the Cerberus manifesto suggests that all these forces were created to advance their agenda of domination over everyone else, so I don't trust TIM. And in ME3, when he actually has troops at his disposal he starts unprovoked conflicts in many theatres (now you culd say he's indoctrinated but still, this is in line with Cerberus' agenda). Another reason why I think Cerberus is an inch worse than the salarians is because they tend to do all their cruel experiments on their own species. Whether that makes a difference or not is up to everyone to decide but the salarians at least seem to do what they do to preserve their kind while Cerberus seems to do what they do mainly to advance their ideology. So yea, both are very shady organizations but if I had to put them on morality scale, Cerberus would rank below the salarians. I wasn't saying Cerberus was "better" (or worse for that matter). I'm only saying those particular actions are the same whether they are committed with a government's approval or not.
Cerberus ultimately does something far "worse" by trying to overthrow the Citadel government (a reasonable and recognized government) in the middle of a war; thereby, putting every species in the galaxy at risk.
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Post by burningcherry on Mar 22, 2019 16:59:19 GMT
So it just ends up making Cerberus look like a group of idiots who are sabotaging what progress humanity has already made. 
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Mar 22, 2019 17:18:46 GMT
And the Krogan were just minding their own business on Tuchunka sitting around butting heads and sharing a cold brew right? How totally and completely unwarranted and evil to just attack an entire race just minding their own businesses.
Was the Yahg being experimented on? Yahg are extremely violent creatures that could go toe to toe with a Krogan. Being kept in a container is to keep them safe from the Yahg. I don't remember though please correct me any statements, conversations or data entries that mention them experimenting on Yahg. The intent with the Yahg was to be secretly uplifted by Salarians to serve as a strike force that can give Salarians full deniability if caught. How ever given the actions of the Shadow Broker I doubt that would have come to pass because they would be dealing with a race far more then just brute force. I do remember them talking about Varren but they are like the large violent Norwegian brown rat of the ME universe. They have spread across the galaxy and are extremely adaptive to different worlds. With Jack's one even developing mild biotic capabilities due to being bred on a planet with a high element zero level.
You might justify going to war against the krogan, but crossing the line to reproductive interference puts it into the realm of genocide pursuant to the UN's 1948 definition... like it or not.
Also, 'preparing to uplift" = "experimenting." We know that the Yahg are sentient beings since the Shadow Broker is clearly sentient and intelligent. Being kept in a cage and "prepared for uplift" is at the very least immoral confinement. Using them as "shock troops" is also reprehensible regardless of their abilities to match fighting strength with the Krogan. We really don't know that state to which the Salarians have uplifted the varren... at some point, in order to become useful, the Salarians will make them sentient... and that would make their treatment after that point immoral as well.
Of course, you are welcome to rationalize your own decisions however you see fit. The game's vagueness allows for that.
You mean the war the Krogan started pushed beyond the acceptable boundaries of war by dropping asteroids on garden planets to render them incapable of supporting advanced life. Who only developed it as a means to defense to reduce the Krogan numbers so they couldn't continue their relentless horde actions over over whelming with sheer numbers due to their high birth rates. But still allowing enough viablity to still allow the Krogan race to continue.
Also remember the Salarians only came up with the Genophage they didn't deploy it. They were waiting for orders from their government when the Turians chose to disperse it. Which if we applied your logic to the real world every nuclear capable nation is guilty of genocide because of the mass death those warheads are capable of causing.
So the Krogan were experiment on? As were the Volus and Elcor? They were all uplifted what horrible experiments did STG do to the Elcor? Also are you aware of the Yahg's social structure? There is no concept of equality among them. They literally massacred the entire citadel diplomacy group that was sent for first contact because they were acting like equals rather then subservient to the group's leader. To put this in perspective if the USA was put in the Yahg home world the last US presidential election would have been a knife fight to the death between a Trump and Hillary with bodies looking like this
![]() Edit: Ok apparently the website will not allow me to post a photo of a Mrs Universe winner. So just google search Mr. Universe and search though images. ![]() ![]()
Just picture Trump and Hilary's head on that body. And the survivor of the fight would instantly get the unquestioning obedience of everyone in the USA. Who would unhesitatingly rip someone limb from limb if they gave the order to.
If anything were to be done with the Yahg they would have to establish dominance over them. At that point their social behavior would kick in and they would be obedient to that person. Context is important here when you are talking about this.
Varren can't be uplifted because they are literally just animals. Originating from the Krogan home world they are just like the Krogan. Violent, viscous, with a rapid breeding cycle and capable of surviving and adapting to just about anything. The only thing the STG seems to be doing there is manipulating the genetics of the Varren to get specific behaviors and actions out of them. Which is nothing more then a more high tech version of what we have been doing with dogs and cats for hundreds of thousands of years. Even ignoring the whole pure breed controversy any animal breeder worth their salt would watch for aggressive behavior tendencies and would not breed those dogs.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2019 17:45:40 GMT
You might justify going to war against the krogan, but crossing the line to reproductive interference puts it into the realm of genocide pursuant to the UN's 1948 definition... like it or not.
Also, 'preparing to uplift" = "experimenting." We know that the Yahg are sentient beings since the Shadow Broker is clearly sentient and intelligent. Being kept in a cage and "prepared for uplift" is at the very least immoral confinement. Using them as "shock troops" is also reprehensible regardless of their abilities to match fighting strength with the Krogan. We really don't know that state to which the Salarians have uplifted the varren... at some point, in order to become useful, the Salarians will make them sentient... and that would make their treatment after that point immoral as well.
Of course, you are welcome to rationalize your own decisions however you see fit. The game's vagueness allows for that.
You mean the war the Krogan started pushed beyond the acceptable boundaries of war by dropping asteroids on garden planets to render them incapable of supporting advanced life. Who only developed it as a means to defense to reduce the Krogan numbers so they couldn't continue their relentless horde actions over over whelming with sheer numbers due to their high birth rates. But still allowing enough viablity to still allow the Krogan race to continue.
Also remember the Salarians only came up with the Genophage they didn't deploy it. They were waiting for orders from their government when the Turians chose to disperse it. Which if we applied your logic to the real world every nuclear capable nation is guilty of genocide because of the mass death those warheads are capable of causing.
So the Krogan were experiment on? As were the Volus and Elcor? They were all uplifted what horrible experiments did STG do to the Elcor? Also are you aware of the Yahg's social structure? There is no concept of equality among them. They literally massacred the entire citadel diplomacy group that was sent for first contact because they were acting like equals rather then subservient to the group's leader. To put this in perspective if the USA was put in the Yahg home world the last US presidential election would have been a knife fight to the death between a Trump and Hillary with bodies looking like this
![]() Edit: Ok apparently the website will not allow me to post a photo of a Mrs Universe winner. So just google search Mr. Universe and search though images. ![]() ![]()
Just picture Trump and Hilary's head on that body. And the survivor of the fight would instantly get the unquestioning obedience of everyone in the USA. Who would unhesitatingly rip someone limb from limb if they gave the order to.
If anything were to be done with the Yahg they would have to establish dominance over them. At that point their social behavior would kick in and they would be obedient to that person. Context is important here when you are talking about this.
Varren can't be uplifted because they are literally just animals. Originating from the Krogan home world they are just like the Krogan. Violent, viscous, with a rapid breeding cycle and capable of surviving and adapting to just about anything. The only thing the STG seems to be doing there is manipulating the genetics of the Varren to get specific behaviors and actions out of them. Which is nothing more then a more high tech version of what we have been doing with dogs and cats for hundreds of thousands of years. Even ignoring the whole pure breed controversy any animal breeder worth their salt would watch for aggressive behavior tendencies and would not breed those dogs.
What the Krogan did was wrong... that still doesn't mean the Salarian response suddenly becomes morally correct or better. Obviously, you've never hear the old adage - two wrongs don't make a right. Also, what did the Yahg do to the Salarians to warrant them being captured, removed from their home planet, and caged to be "prepared for uplift?"
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Mar 22, 2019 20:36:59 GMT
You mean the war the Krogan started pushed beyond the acceptable boundaries of war by dropping asteroids on garden planets to render them incapable of supporting advanced life. Who only developed it as a means to defense to reduce the Krogan numbers so they couldn't continue their relentless horde actions over over whelming with sheer numbers due to their high birth rates. But still allowing enough viablity to still allow the Krogan race to continue.
Also remember the Salarians only came up with the Genophage they didn't deploy it. They were waiting for orders from their government when the Turians chose to disperse it. Which if we applied your logic to the real world every nuclear capable nation is guilty of genocide because of the mass death those warheads are capable of causing.
So the Krogan were experiment on? As were the Volus and Elcor? They were all uplifted what horrible experiments did STG do to the Elcor? Also are you aware of the Yahg's social structure? There is no concept of equality among them. They literally massacred the entire citadel diplomacy group that was sent for first contact because they were acting like equals rather then subservient to the group's leader. To put this in perspective if the USA was put in the Yahg home world the last US presidential election would have been a knife fight to the death between a Trump and Hillary with bodies looking like this
![]() Edit: Ok apparently the website will not allow me to post a photo of a Mrs Universe winner. So just google search Mr. Universe and search though images. ![]() ![]()
Just picture Trump and Hilary's head on that body. And the survivor of the fight would instantly get the unquestioning obedience of everyone in the USA. Who would unhesitatingly rip someone limb from limb if they gave the order to.
If anything were to be done with the Yahg they would have to establish dominance over them. At that point their social behavior would kick in and they would be obedient to that person. Context is important here when you are talking about this.
Varren can't be uplifted because they are literally just animals. Originating from the Krogan home world they are just like the Krogan. Violent, viscous, with a rapid breeding cycle and capable of surviving and adapting to just about anything. The only thing the STG seems to be doing there is manipulating the genetics of the Varren to get specific behaviors and actions out of them. Which is nothing more then a more high tech version of what we have been doing with dogs and cats for hundreds of thousands of years. Even ignoring the whole pure breed controversy any animal breeder worth their salt would watch for aggressive behavior tendencies and would not breed those dogs.
What the Krogan did was wrong... that still doesn't mean the Salarian response suddenly becomes morally correct or better. Obviously, you've never hear the old adage - two wrongs don't make a right. Also, what did the Yahg do to the Salarians to warrant them being captured, removed from their home planet, and caged to be "prepared for uplift?" Then how would you have stopped the Krogan without commiting literal out right genocide? Preach to them how what they are doing is bad and wrong? Tell them to solve their problems with hugs?
As for the Yahg it is impossible to say the story around it. For all we know it agreed to go with the STG team. Only to turn around and try to take over or go back on the deal. Either way an intelligent species who has seen and has secret knowledge of any espionage agency will not be allowed to leave the place alive. That is after all what the Shadow Broker did. Willingly left, learned all they could then took over.
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Post by sassafrassa on Mar 23, 2019 15:18:09 GMT
That's pretty standard for any special ops organization, which includes N7s. That's not spiciest; it's survival. Cerberus isn't looking to keep humanity in the game. They're trying to dominate the galaxy and potentially remove all opposition from the field. I'm not sure how spec ops and terrorism line up in your world. I repeat: Cerberus is trying to do what every other spec ops organization is doing. You have not established a difference. I'm speaking generally here in their stated goals over a long period of time, not their actions and intent in ME3 in which they are compromised and doing little more than serving Reaper interests. They all (species) want more power and influence for their respective species. That's how politics works; it is a competition for influence. Those who can't play the game well have little power and they all want to be top dog. Again, I point to this thread: bsn.boards.net/thread/16690/council-bad?page=1 where I outline the Council's history and policies. There is no evidence that Cerberus wants to exterminate aliens in the games. There is the one odd book quote where Kahlee thinks about them having declared such intent, but this doesn't line up with anything else even in that novel or anything in the games. It makes no sense and so I chalk it up to being an artifact of an earlier concept of ME2 that was later changed. In any case, the Council really HAS exterminated species, used species as tools and cast them aside when no longer useful, and driven others to near extinction. It's post-ME2, from when someone needed to finally define what Cerberus is. The salarians are nowhere near this, or at least not in the short run: their current military doctrine is to provide the turians with intelligence and let them do the fighting. Oh that's right. Well now it makes even less sense. So instead of this being an artifact of ME2's development I think it is an artifact of ME3's. Nothing in ME3 states that Cerberus wants to wipe out aliens. Even if they did, the organization is a Reaper host in ME3 as is their leader. In any case, short and term and long term matter. Short term and long term both matter. Let's not forget that the salarians are responsible for altering the fate of the krogan species to suit their own needs and then infecting the entire population with a disease once they were no longer useful. Are you not in the least bit worried that the STG won't someday attempt the same on humanity if human influence becomes just a bit too ascendant for their liking? It's a very real possibility. Special Ops that help protect their respective government's position and power and a group that wants to completely over throw all other governments not quite the same. What's the difference? Where is it stated Cerberus wants to overthrow anything? Between ME1 and ME2 they protected the Council from a batarian assassination plot. If you were Cerberus, why destroy the Council rather than dominate it as the most influential member? Makes no sense, and isn't supported by the games anyway. So it just ends up making Cerberus look like a group of idiots who are sabotaging what progress humanity has already made. I'd love to get a quote citing a source from the turian diplomat. Sounds llike turian propaganda to me. There is political gain to be had by promoting your own species interests while denouncing another species doing the same. It's a rather common political tactic. Let us keep in mind here that turians practice total-war in which civilians do not exist and they fight every war to be the final war, acquiring the defeated as a client race. Sound like good people, don't they? Not remotely a threat.
The salarians are shady for sure. That doesn't make Cerberus better though. No, but it makes them equals. Indoctrination in ME3 aside, anyway. And the Krogan were just minding their own business on Tuchunka sitting around butting heads and sharing a cold brew right? How totally and completely unwarranted and evil to just attack an entire race just minding their own businesses.
That's exactly what they were doing before the salarians contacted them and gave them interstellar travel specifically so the krogan could fight in their war against the rachni. The Krogan Rebellions that followed, which were the natural result of krogan biology sent free of its homeworld before it had naturally evolved the stability to create an interstellar society, is the fault of the salarian Union. Then how would you have stopped the Krogan without commiting literal out right genocide? I would never uplift them in the first place. I'm not that callous short-sighted.
I'll leave it here though. I should make my own thread talking about Cerberus and how poorly executed and vague a concept they are in the Mass Effect franchise. As an old friend once said, "Cerberus is plot clay". It's rather difficult and frustrating to try and make sense of them because there is no consistency.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Mar 23, 2019 15:55:53 GMT
What's the difference? Where is it stated Cerberus wants to overthrow anything? Between ME1 and ME2 they protected the Council from a batarian assassination plot. If you were Cerberus, why destroy the Council rather than dominate it as the most influential member? Yes in that game Mass Effect Galaxy the Batarians want to kill all of the Council of which Humanity is part of it and killing them would effect the standing of Humanity across the galaxy. Not to mention the boost they would get for a human stopping the assassination plot. Jacob at the time also isn't a part of Cerberus he joins after the events of Galaxy and as shown in ME 2 Jacob is one of the few moral people at Cerberus but he also has no real power and authority in said organization.
Actually they were barely surviving on their own self created radioactive ball of dirt. The after effect of a nuclear war they created. The Rebellion was because they wouldn't self regulate their reproduction rates which were no longer necessary to be so high. But they choose not to and demanded more planets and when the Council wouldn't give they started a fight.
The Asari are just as long lived but they choose to limit the number of children they have. Even if they only had 1 child every 10 years the 1,000+ years life span of an Asari would still allow 100 children born per 2 Asari. And those 100 children would each have 100 children themselves. And that is just assuming 1 Asari in the relationship is the one giving birth if both did it at the same time the number would double and the Asari would be in a similar situation to the Krogan.
The gruff, blunt and fight happy nature of the Krogan wasn't what sparked the Krogan rebellion it was literally then not being able to keep it in their pants.
And then you would have been wiped out by the Rachni. I guess in the grand scheme of things one mistake should result in the total destruction of 2 races is far more moral choice.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2019 16:35:26 GMT
What the Krogan did was wrong... that still doesn't mean the Salarian response suddenly becomes morally correct or better. Obviously, you've never hear the old adage - two wrongs don't make a right. Also, what did the Yahg do to the Salarians to warrant them being captured, removed from their home planet, and caged to be "prepared for uplift?" Then how would you have stopped the Krogan without commiting literal out right genocide? Preach to them how what they are doing is bad and wrong? Tell them to solve their problems with hugs?
As for the Yahg it is impossible to say the story around it. For all we know it agreed to go with the STG team. Only to turn around and try to take over or go back on the deal. Either way an intelligent species who has seen and has secret knowledge of any espionage agency will not be allowed to leave the place alive. That is after all what the Shadow Broker did. Willingly left, learned all they could then took over.
Oh, I don't know... How about finding a way to blow up the asteroids they were dropping before they reached their targets (ever hear of Star Wars?).
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Mar 23, 2019 19:38:55 GMT
Then how would you have stopped the Krogan without commiting literal out right genocide? Preach to them how what they are doing is bad and wrong? Tell them to solve their problems with hugs?
As for the Yahg it is impossible to say the story around it. For all we know it agreed to go with the STG team. Only to turn around and try to take over or go back on the deal. Either way an intelligent species who has seen and has secret knowledge of any espionage agency will not be allowed to leave the place alive. That is after all what the Shadow Broker did. Willingly left, learned all they could then took over.
Oh, I don't know... How about finding a way to blow up the asteroids they were dropping before they reached their targets (ever hear of Star Wars?). 2 problems with blowing up asteroid theory.
1. They would have to already be in place and ready for said asteroid strike and be able to hit it while dealing with Krogan Fleet attack.
2. With a sufficiently large asteroid all it would do is break up and rain destruction down on a wider path. Turing it from a rifle shot into a shotgun spread effect. Requiring them to break it up into millions of small fragments to allow them to burn up in the atmosphere. If they were anything like the size of the one in Mass Effect 1 then it would take a half dozen literal or of similar capacity nuclear bomb explosions to fragment it enough to be rendered small enough to not rain death on them. And even then it might not be enough because without the air pressure to crush the rock you might need even more. And then a laser point defense of half a dozen ships to target the larger fragments that are left.
This really kind of highlights the problem with your stance. Not only are you trying to pull from another series to answer the question. But the vague "try to stop them" is literally on par with someone suffering depression being told to just cheer up and their depression will be cured.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2019 19:46:51 GMT
Oh, I don't know... How about finding a way to blow up the asteroids they were dropping before they reached their targets (ever hear of Star Wars?). 2 problems with blowing up asteroid theory.
1. They would have to already be in place and ready for said asteroid strike and be able to hit it while dealing with Krogan Fleet attack.
2. With a sufficiently large asteroid all it would do is break up and rain destruction down on a wider path. Turing it from a rifle shot into a shotgun spread effect. Requiring them to break it up into millions of small fragments to allow them to burn up in the atmosphere. If they were anything like the size of the one in Mass Effect 1 then it would take a half dozen literal or of similar capacity nuclear bomb explosions to fragment it enough to be rendered small enough to not rain death on them. And even then it might not be enough because without the air pressure to crush the rock you might need even more. And then a laser point defense of half a dozen ships to target the larger fragments that are left.
This really kind of highlights the problem with your stance. Not only are you trying to pull from another series to answer the question. But the vague "try to stop them" is literally on par with someone suffering depression being told to just cheer up and their depression will be cured.
FYI, I'm not pulling from the series Star Wars, I'm pulling on what US policy has been regarding the Cold War... a philosophy of finding alternatives to open war and to genocide rather than sanctioning it.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Mar 24, 2019 1:15:49 GMT
2 problems with blowing up asteroid theory.
1. They would have to already be in place and ready for said asteroid strike and be able to hit it while dealing with Krogan Fleet attack.
2. With a sufficiently large asteroid all it would do is break up and rain destruction down on a wider path. Turing it from a rifle shot into a shotgun spread effect. Requiring them to break it up into millions of small fragments to allow them to burn up in the atmosphere. If they were anything like the size of the one in Mass Effect 1 then it would take a half dozen literal or of similar capacity nuclear bomb explosions to fragment it enough to be rendered small enough to not rain death on them. And even then it might not be enough because without the air pressure to crush the rock you might need even more. And then a laser point defense of half a dozen ships to target the larger fragments that are left.
This really kind of highlights the problem with your stance. Not only are you trying to pull from another series to answer the question. But the vague "try to stop them" is literally on par with someone suffering depression being told to just cheer up and their depression will be cured.
FYI, I'm not pulling from the series Star Wars, I'm pulling on what US policy has been regarding the Cold War... a philosophy of finding alternatives to open war and to genocide rather than sanctioning it. Yea and it wasn't put in place because it was more then it is worth. With advent of technology it would be open to cyber intrusions that could prematurely fire off a rocket and cause an intentional incident.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 24, 2019 3:05:14 GMT
I repeat: Cerberus is trying to do what every other spec ops organization is doing. You have not established a difference. If we go by your theory, terrorists from America (not the American government) are the same as the MI6. That is what you're saying, correct? Because that's the equivalent. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2019 4:26:00 GMT
FYI, I'm not pulling from the series Star Wars, I'm pulling on what US policy has been regarding the Cold War... a philosophy of finding alternatives to open war and to genocide rather than sanctioning it. Yea and it wasn't put in place because it was more then it is worth. With advent of technology it would be open to cyber intrusions that could prematurely fire off a rocket and cause an intentional incident. My point is that it was still researched and put on the table as an alternative. Efforts to find ways to stabilize things without wholesale genocide and outright nuclear war are ongoing. The salarians used the genophage on the krogan as a first resort, not a last one. The krogan numbers are not nearly even at par with the other species in the galaxy. The actual risk of the them overrunning the galaxy was overstated with, as Morgan put it, too many variables for even him, in the end, to be certain. Also, the Salarians haven't changed their behavior and are at risk of doing the same thing again with the yahg.
Your argument that maybe the yahg agreed to be caged up like animals on Sur'kesh is, quite simply, ridiculous (IMHO, of course).
As I said before, you can rationalize what you do/decide in the game any way you wish... it still doesn't change the UN definition of it. Just calling a spade a spade.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Mar 24, 2019 13:52:02 GMT
Yea and it wasn't put in place because it was more then it is worth. With advent of technology it would be open to cyber intrusions that could prematurely fire off a rocket and cause an intentional incident. My point is that it was still researched and put on the table as an alternative. Efforts to find ways to stabilize things without wholesale genocide and outright nuclear war are ongoing. The salarians used the genophage on the krogan as a first resort, not a last one. The krogan numbers are not nearly even at par with the other species in the galaxy. The actual risk of the them overrunning the galaxy was overstated with, as Morgan put it, too many variables for even him, in the end, to be certain. Also, the Salarians haven't changed their behavior and are at risk of doing the same thing again with the yahg.
Your argument that maybe the yahg agreed to be caged up like animals on Sur'kesh is, quite simply, ridiculous (IMHO, of course).
As I said before, you can rationalize what you do/decide in the game any way you wish... it still doesn't change the UN definition of it. Just calling a spade a spade.
That wouldn't stabilize shit because all the Krogan would do in stead is launch multiple large asteroids to exhaust any defense system. Not to mention I don't think anyone wants thousands of nuclear missiles floating over head were a hacker or a small assault squad (if it is kept manual) could sneak onto the station and kill everyone then turn and fire it at the ground side to cause wide spread destruction.
This is also assuming that the Krogan don't simply target those floating missile stations first before bringing in the asteroid. So either the stations exhaust their weapons defending themselves and the planet from Krogan ships. The Asari/Salarian ships are forced to act as shields to protect the stations which result in heavy causalities and prevents the use of bigger ships since they would be literally trapped with their back against the wall of the planet's atmosphere. The burning husks and chunks of the destroyed ships floating into the gravitational pull of the planet to eventually be pulled to the surface causing massive impacts and destruction. You always have the simplest responds that doesn't take anything but what you want into account. The world and events in game are not so simple black and white.
Based on? The Rebellion lased at least 20 years before it was ended with the Genophage. Tell me again how that counts as first resort and not a last one. That was longer then both world wars combined. If the Krogan hit even moderately populated garden worlds the death toll of the war would be in the trillions of lives lost.
For scale reference to count to 1 trillion were 1 count= 1 second it would take 31,709 years to count from 1 to 1 trillion.
Yes at the time of the game shown hundreds of years after the genophage was released.
Really when did I assume you mean Mordin say that? I remember a line about the after effects of the Genophage with Krogan society crumbling into petty warring clans which was never intended. Since all the Genophage was made to do was reduce birth rates so the scuidal horde charge of the Krogan would no longer be a viable tactic and just as the Asari, Salarian and later Turian each fight and loss would effect their all over strength. Allowing them to actually defeat them in a conventional warfare.
Yea and how did the Shadow Broker come into power?
The UN also doesn't even consider the idea of dropping an asteroid on a plant and killing all life on it.
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Post by burningcherry on Mar 24, 2019 22:09:18 GMT
It's post-ME2, from when someone needed to finally define what Cerberus is. The salarians are nowhere near this, or at least not in the short run: their current military doctrine is to provide the turians with intelligence and let them do the fighting. Oh that's right. Well now it makes even less sense. So instead of this being an artifact of ME2's development I think it is an artifact of ME3's. Nothing in ME3 states that Cerberus wants to wipe out aliens. Even if they did, the organization is a Reaper host in ME3 as is their leader. In any case, short and term and long term matter. Short term and long term both matter. Let's not forget that the salarians are responsible for altering the fate of the krogan species to suit their own needs and then infecting the entire population with a disease once they were no longer useful. Are you not in the least bit worried that the STG won't someday attempt the same on humanity if human influence becomes just a bit too ascendant for their liking? It's a very real possibility. It was written by Karpyshyn shortly after ME2. Karpyshyn had no partake in ME3 and couldn't expect that Cerberus will be present so much there. Salarians could be dangerous in long term but EDI is right on Sur'Kesh: they will have no allies after the war.
You can't practise war for extermination and want the conquered race to be your useful clients at once. I believe that there are examples that they try to limit civilian casualties as long as it's possible and are open to status quo peace: the Taetrus War, the First Contact War. Turians have a very strong culture against lying and if someone as high in the Hierarchy as a Citadel ambassador says something off-camera, we can take it for certain. Plus, Anderson didn't object to that remark.
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Post by sassafrassa on Mar 25, 2019 2:41:46 GMT
You can't practise war for extermination and want the conquered race to be your useful clients at once. Yes you can. It all depends on when the enemy surrenders. I repeat: Cerberus is trying to do what every other spec ops organization is doing. You have not established a difference. If we go by your theory, terrorists from America (not the American government) are the same as the MI6. That is what you're saying, correct? Because that's the equivalent. In terms of motives, yes. Jacob at the time also isn't a part of Cerberus he joins after the events of Galaxy and as shown in ME 2 Jacob is one of the few moral people at Cerberus but he also has no real power and authority in said organization. [/div] So why did Jacob join this organization that, apparently, openly calls for the extermination of aliens? Why did Miranda? Why did Kelly? Why did Joker? Why did...ect...? It's dumb writing. I don't think its canon. Kahlee is just butthurt a Cerberus spy was banging her and running intrusive tests on one of her students. Even if Cerberus wanted to wipe out aliens it would make zero sense to ever state such a goal openly. I'd argue that as a goal it's not even sensible. It wasn't their fault. They did not evolve the biology, the related psychology, to control their reproduction. The asari did, a long time ago. There is no sense in blaming the krogan for the rebellions any more than there would be in blaming rabbits for breeding to plague levels in Australia. As a space-faring species the krogan are an organism in an unnatural environment that they are not suited for.
[/quote] No, I wouldn't uplift the krogan. I'm a much better general than anyone in the Asari Republics or Salarian Union, apparently. I don't fight interstellar wars with ground troops. I don't need the krogan and it would be immoral to drag them out of their natural environment just to serve my needs.
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Post by burningcherry on Mar 25, 2019 9:47:08 GMT
You can't practise war for extermination and want the conquered race to be your useful clients at once. Yes you can. It all depends on when the enemy surrenders. But there's no evidence that they ever did more "collateral damage" than necessary to limit their own casualties, maybe except the time their homeworld got nearly asteroid bombed after 300 years of war. Jacob (and possibly Shepard...) – because Cerberus was doing something right at the moment. Kelly and Joker (and Daniels, Donnelly, Chakwas...) – because TIM asked them to help Shepard. Miranda – because her father was too bad. Flattening Kahlee to "a Cerberus spy was banging her and running intrusive tests on one of her students" is dishonest because – it was already a while ago, – she had much stronger reasons of personal nature (she almost got sold to the Collectors by a Cerberus contact and later almost killed during the battle of Idenna), – you're arbitrarily saying that what you said were her only reasons. It is never said when exactly Cerberus turned that bad and no one said that they came clear about it before Shepard worked with them. Why Shepard had a distorted view of the organization in commonly known. I'm not saying that Cerberus writing is consistent and I happened to argue against it a while ago but rewrites are one thing and specifying something previously left vague is another.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 25, 2019 11:30:55 GMT
Joker joined Cerberus because he wanted to fly. He doesn't care about their background. He just wanted to fly.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 25, 2019 15:23:47 GMT
My Shepards don't trust Joker unless I RP that Shepard believes all these ex-Alliance people were planted in Cerberus as secret allies. What are the odds that Chakwas, Joker, Donnelly, Daniels and Jacob all just happened to be there?
Note that Joker was still allowed around the SR-2 at the beginning of ME3 (even if not flying) and Chakwas was put in a research lab. Chakwas claimed she didn't get in trouble for joining a terrorist organization because she was on leave would never fly. Joining Cerberus is treason so something else was at work. Only the engineers faced any type of punishment, but no worse than what Shepard received.
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