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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 8, 2021 17:08:48 GMT
Again, what magic exactly? ME1's characters are extremely basic, and half of them aren't characters at all. What magic from those characters are they not recapturing? No one likes Kaiden, Liara is an Asari Codex you can bang, Tali is a Geth and Quarrien Codex, Ashley is "stereotype marine who likes gushy things" Wrex and Garrus and Ashley are the only companions with conversations that are more than just exposition. So I ask again, what magic exactly? I think you're misunderstanding. ME1 is iconic. It is the entry to the franchise, it has a lot of world building done right, it has some good characters, mostly just Anderson, Wrex and Garrus, in no particular order. The franchise really hit its stride with 2, though and 2's characters. Widely being the best received in the franchise. It's not that Bioware has never written good characters before, or that it is impossible they do so in the future. The fact that these characters were dropped is a problem, though and when you drop something, especially that's so well loved, everything gets unavoidably compared to it in the end. In most likelihood, they will turn up lacking. Even as the content most ME2 characters have, in comparison to the Andromeda crew, is paltry. The problem that arises is that was there any demand for the Andromeda characters before Andromeda? No. Was the content that was there of them of sufficient quality to surpass their predecessors? For some people that answer is yes, for some people that is a no. For some people that belief in Bioware to accomplish this in the next game, especially current Bioware, is non-existent, lets say. Pair that lack of faith in Bioware with the dropped potential of past characters that wasn't fully realized and while that's not true for all of MET's characters, but sufficiently for most of the, potentially, surviving ones to make a return to them far more attractive than the prospect of going back to the Andromeda crew, or a new crew and you get this dissent. People don't believe Bioware can produce something better and asking them to wait for 4 more years, at best, to come up with something that will without a doubt prove itself to be inferior is just not a sell. Can Bioware do it? Absolutely. I can also win the poweball and win the world series at age 45. Everything is possible. The likelihood is just not there, though. We can argue, again, how successful Andromeda was and how well loved all of its characters are and why we should return to them and not Shepard and the Trilogy crew, or why it is too much baggage and it is unfair to new people and all it needs is a good new game and it doesn't matter who we're paired up with and if you believe that, that's your right, I can't and won't try to change your mind from it and I hope those $60 $70 you spend on Will Continue is money well spent. I don't think I can share that sentiment. What is it that the youngsters call it these days? Being blackpilled? I guess I'm blackpilled on Bioware. |
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Post by lavigne on Jun 8, 2021 17:17:09 GMT
Again, what magic exactly? ME1's characters are extremely basic, and half of them aren't characters at all. What magic from those characters are they not recapturing? No one likes Kaiden, Liara is an Asari Codex you can bang, Tali is a Geth and Quarrien Codex, Ashley is "stereotype marine who likes gushy things" Wrex and Garrus and Ashley are the only companions with conversations that are more than just exposition. So I ask again, what magic exactly? Edited: I can’t top how eloquently sirpretrakus has put it above. |
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Post by therevanchist25 on Jun 8, 2021 17:31:00 GMT
Again, what magic exactly? ME1's characters are extremely basic, and half of them aren't characters at all. What magic from those characters are they not recapturing? No one likes Kaiden, Liara is an Asari Codex you can bang, Tali is a Geth and Quarrien Codex, Ashley is "stereotype marine who likes gushy things" Wrex and Garrus and Ashley are the only companions with conversations that are more than just exposition. So I ask again, what magic exactly? I think you're misunderstanding. ME1 is iconic. It is the entry to the franchise, it has a lot of world building done right, it has some good characters, mostly just Anderson, Wrex and Garrus, in no particular order. The franchise really hit its stride with 2, though and 2's characters. Widely being the best received in the franchise. It's not that Bioware has never written good characters before, or that it is impossible they do so in the future. The fact that these characters were dropped is a problem, though and when you drop something, especially that's so well loved, everything gets unavoidably compared to it in the end. In most likelihood, they will turn up lacking. Even as the content most ME2 characters have, in comparison to the Andromeda crew, is paltry. The problem that arises is that was there any demand for the Andromeda characters before Andromeda? No. Was the content that was there of them of sufficient quality to surpass their predecessors? For some people that answer is yes, for some people that is a no. For some people that belief in Bioware to accomplish this in the next game, especially current Bioware, is non-existent, lets say. Pair that lack of faith in Bioware with the dropped potential of past characters that wasn't fully realized and while that's not true for all of MET's characters, but sufficiently for most of the, potentially, surviving ones to make a return to them far more attractive than the prospect of going back to the Andromeda crew, or a new crew and you get this dissent. People don't believe Bioware can produce something better and asking them to wait for 4 more years, at best, to come up with something that will without a doubt prove itself to be inferior is just not a sell. Can Bioware do it? Absolutely. I can also win the poweball and win the world series at age 45. Everything is possible. The likelihood is just not there, though. We can argue, again, how successful Andromeda was and how well loved all of its characters are and why we should return to them and not Shepard and the Trilogy crew, or why it is too much baggage and it is unfair to new people and all it needs is a good new game and it doesn't matter who we're paired up with and if you believe that, that's your right, I can't and won't try to change your mind from it and I hope those $60 $70 you spend on Will Continue is money well spent. I don't think I can share that sentiment. What is it that the youngsters call it these days? Being blackpilled? I guess I'm blackpilled on Bioware. As usual, your missing the point my dude. I'm just talking about ME1, not ME2. ME1 is iconic, yes. But not for it's characters. You keep going on rants about the glory of ME2's characters. I'm not fucking talking about ME2. What character magic, from ME1, are they not recapturing? Answer me that, and stop moving the goal post. ofc ME2 has good characters, they replace the entire fucking narrative. Andromeda is more akin to ME1, and thus we are going to debate the characters from ME1, because Andromeda is not the Dirty Dozen in Space. Most of this word salad was just jerking off ME2, and wholly ignoring my question. What about ME1's characters, what magic, did they posses, is Bioware missing? ME1 had like 3 real characters. And you know full well I don't even like Andromeda, but I'm not gonna sit here and let you move the goal post from my question either.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 8, 2021 18:27:22 GMT
As usual, your missing the point my dude. I'm just talking about ME1, not ME2. ME1 is iconic, yes. But not for it's characters. You keep going on rants about the glory of ME2's characters. I'm not fucking talking about ME2. What character magic, from ME1, are they not recapturing? Answer me that, and stop moving the goal post. ofc ME2 has good characters, they replace the entire fucking narrative. Andromeda is more akin to ME1, and thus we are going to debate the characters from ME1, because Andromeda is not the Dirty Dozen in Space. Most of this word salad was just jerking off ME2, and wholly ignoring my question. What about ME1's characters, what magic, did they posses, is Bioware missing? ME1 had like 3 real characters. And you know full well I don't even like Andromeda, but I'm not gonna sit here and let you move the goal post from my question either. Right, ME1 is iconic for a lot of things. Its characters, not so much. ME2 raised that bar. It's not 2007 anymore. Things changed. Just like Final Fantasy raised the bar in 1987 and Final Fantasy 7 did in 1997. You can't do it like that anymore and hope to strike out. Things change, expectations are higher and you need to provide a better end product. If your product in 2017 is as good as your product in 2007, or worse, you're not going to get the same return. You're going to get criticized a lot more harshly, because the standards are that much higher. You can't do a Neverwinter Nights 1 OC level of job and call it a day. |
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Post by therevanchist25 on Jun 8, 2021 18:45:31 GMT
As usual, your missing the point my dude. I'm just talking about ME1, not ME2. ME1 is iconic, yes. But not for it's characters. You keep going on rants about the glory of ME2's characters. I'm not fucking talking about ME2. What character magic, from ME1, are they not recapturing? Answer me that, and stop moving the goal post. ofc ME2 has good characters, they replace the entire fucking narrative. Andromeda is more akin to ME1, and thus we are going to debate the characters from ME1, because Andromeda is not the Dirty Dozen in Space. Most of this word salad was just jerking off ME2, and wholly ignoring my question. What about ME1's characters, what magic, did they posses, is Bioware missing? ME1 had like 3 real characters. And you know full well I don't even like Andromeda, but I'm not gonna sit here and let you move the goal post from my question either. Right, ME1 is iconic for a lot of things. Its characters, not so much. ME2 raised that bar. It's not 2007 anymore. Things changed. Just like Final Fantasy raised the bar in 1987 and Final Fantasy 7 did in 1997. You can't do it like that anymore and hope to strike out. Things change, expectations are higher and you need to provide a better end product. If your product in 2017 is as good as your product in 2007, or worse, you're not going to get the same return. You're going to get criticized a lot more harshly, because the standards are that much higher. You can't do a Neverwinter Nights 1 OC level of job and call it a day. Right, so in other words you can't answer me, because you know I am right, and just refuse to say so. ME1 is a very enjoyable experience, despite its lack of characters. It holds up to this day, as I am playing it right now, and enjoying it immensely. You absolutely could make ME1 today and still be met with success. You say they "raised the bar" with ME2. I disagree entirely, because ME2 has NO FUCKING PLOT. That is not raising the bar, by any metric my dude. That's just moving the bar over there, instead of the bar being here. It's a lateral move at best. You can only get characters that well defined, by removing the entire plot. Which is objectively still shit, it's just a different flavor of shit. I get you want more Strawberry flavored shit instead of the chocolate flavor, but let's not pretend we're ultimately not still arguing over objective shit. And frankly, if I'm being brutally honest. ME2's characters are all very much the same. Parent issues, over and over again, in some form or another. Garrus, Jack, Mordin, Zaeed and Kasumi are the only exceptions to this rule. Using the same trope over and over again in the same narrative, is shit writing. Hardly worth singing praises over.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 8, 2021 18:53:32 GMT
Right, so in other words you can't answer me, because you know I am right, and just refuse to say so. ME1 is a very enjoyable experience, despite its lack of characters. It holds up to this day, as I am playing it right now, and enjoying it immensely. You absolutely could make ME1 today and still be met with success. You say they "raised the bar" with ME2. I disagree entirely, because ME2 has NO FUCKING PLOT. That is not raising the bar, by any metric my dude. That's just moving the bar over there, instead of the bar being here. It's a lateral move at best. You can only get characters that well defined, by removing the entire plot. Which is objectively still shit, it's just a different flavor of shit. I get you want more Strawberry flavored shit instead of the chocolate flavor, but let's not pretend we're ultimately not still arguing over objective shit. And frankly, if I'm being brutally honest. ME2's characters are all very much the same. Parent issues, over and over again, in some form or another. Garrus, Jack, Mordin, Zaeed and Kasumi are the only exceptions to this rule. Using the same trope over and over again in the same narrative, is shit writing. Hardly worth singing praises over.I don't think you're interested in the conversation, or at really examining the points. I don't think you're making an argument in good faith and this is the umpteenth time we're having this conversation, only to throw around unsubstantiated claims about how this is shit and that is shit and no plot and how fuck you, I didn't like it, basically. We could agree to having different tastes and interests and part amicably, but I don't think you'll settle for that, either. |
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Official BSN Originale - Still searching for a better ending to ME3
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Post by jadebaby88 on Jun 8, 2021 19:19:26 GMT
No their existence fuels the entire trilogy. Their motivations were completely unknown and made out to be unknowable. "From a realm so far beyond our existence we cannot even imagine it." lol what a joke that line is now. I never even thought about their motivations until some arbitrary galaxy-shaping decision was dumped in my lap in the 140th hour of a 141 hours long playthrough. The goal was just stopping them, that was the fuel. Quick reply before work. I will address the rest after I get back.
Their existence fuels nothing. Their motivation is what causes the events in the game to happen. And I would argue that they remain unknowable. Based on many people's argument and simplified to the same degree surgery is nothing more then cutting someone open and sewing them up. So any random person should be able to perform surgery and there is no need for medical school. Yet those same people who really like to simplify the Reaper's objectives would never let anyone cut them open without a degree from an accredited medical school.
No one started simplifying the Reaper's objectives until the Catalyst showed up. That character simplified it for everyone. Looking at it retroactively, their motivations are what causes the events to happen, that doesn't mean it's what fuels the series. The game was not written backwards, the fact is that not even the writer's themselves knew what the Reaper's motivations were in ME1 or even ME2. Because that wasn't what was fuelling the games, it was their presence and their threat to all advanced life. Nothing more needed to be said for the story to come to a conclusion.
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Official BSN Originale - Still searching for a better ending to ME3
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Post by jadebaby88 on Jun 8, 2021 19:24:14 GMT
Again, what magic exactly? ME1's characters are extremely basic, and half of them aren't characters at all. What magic from those characters are they not recapturing? No one likes Kaiden, Liara is an Asari Codex you can bang, Tali is a Geth and Quarrien Codex, Ashley is "stereotype marine who likes gushy things" Wrex and Garrus and Ashley are the only companions with conversations that are more than just exposition. So I ask again, what magic exactly? I think you're misunderstanding. ME1 is iconic. It is the entry to the franchise, it has a lot of world building done right, it has some good characters, mostly just Anderson, Wrex and Garrus, in no particular order. The franchise really hit its stride with 2, though and 2's characters. Widely being the best received in the franchise. It's not that Bioware has never written good characters before, or that it is impossible they do so in the future. The fact that these characters were dropped is a problem, though and when you drop something, especially that's so well loved, everything gets unavoidably compared to it in the end. In most likelihood, they will turn up lacking. Even as the content most ME2 characters have, in comparison to the Andromeda crew, is paltry. The problem that arises is that was there any demand for the Andromeda characters before Andromeda? No. Was the content that was there of them of sufficient quality to surpass their predecessors? For some people that answer is yes, for some people that is a no. For some people that belief in Bioware to accomplish this in the next game, especially current Bioware, is non-existent, lets say. Pair that lack of faith in Bioware with the dropped potential of past characters that wasn't fully realized and while that's not true for all of MET's characters, but sufficiently for most of the, potentially, surviving ones to make a return to them far more attractive than the prospect of going back to the Andromeda crew, or a new crew and you get this dissent. People don't believe Bioware can produce something better and asking them to wait for 4 more years, at best, to come up with something that will without a doubt prove itself to be inferior is just not a sell. Can Bioware do it? Absolutely. I can also win the poweball and win the world series at age 45. Everything is possible. The likelihood is just not there, though. We can argue, again, how successful Andromeda was and how well loved all of its characters are and why we should return to them and not Shepard and the Trilogy crew, or why it is too much baggage and it is unfair to new people and all it needs is a good new game and it doesn't matter who we're paired up with and if you believe that, that's your right, I can't and won't try to change your mind from it and I hope those $60 $70 you spend on Will Continue is money well spent. I don't think I can share that sentiment. What is it that the youngsters call it these days? Being blackpilled? I guess I'm blackpilled on Bioware. Is this to say you wont buy the next ME game at all? Or that you will wait for reviews first and then decide?
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Official BSN Originale - Still searching for a better ending to ME3
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Post by jadebaby88 on Jun 8, 2021 19:34:27 GMT
Hi guys, I just got here. This is a lot of pages to read. So I'm just going to post. I'm back. You guys might remember me from the old BSN boards. Maybe you do. Maybe you don't. I remember some of your names. It's been... what... 7 years? Anyway, I bought the Legendary Edition. I haven't played the game in a while so this is my first run through since 2013. I mean up until then I'd played ME1 and 2 16 times to get those 16 wildly different endings we were promised. I cured the genophage. I let the Geth die because it wasn't really Legion and I couldn't trust it. Upload reaper code, code of the things we were fighting into the Geth? Insane. I still remember that first beam run on March 22, 2012. I remember getting wasted by Marauder Shields more than a couple of times. Then I talked to The Illusive Man. He committed suicide. I thought it was done. I thought Shepard died on the platform. Then that abomination. Of course I picked Destroy. I had 5500 EMS. And still i blew up the galaxy at 3:20 a.m. Did all that really happen? Yes, but some of the details were lost with time. It all happened so very long ago. God I hated the ending. The EC was the same ending with sprinkles. So now with no MP, what's the threshold for the breath scene? Or maybe I should just go for the Low EMS destroy and blow up the galaxy as a big middle finger. I still kind of look at the whole thing on the Citadel as indoctrination theory. That theory had weight. How did Anderson get up on the Citadel? How did The Illusive Man get there? Bah. The threshold is somewhere around 7200+, I got it at 7500 with a Paragon Shep and I'm almost at that again with a Renegade Shep. So not that hard to get. The Destroy ending is the only one that doesn't make me depressed for two weeks, ego, it's the canon one lmao. Agreed, I just finished a trilogy completionist run on insanity, finished ME3 with 8300 EMS but you only need 7.2 I think it was back in the day. Not sure if they've lowered it now without MP. Tbh though, if you don't ask the Catalyst to elaborate on anything to do with the Reapers, Crucible or Catalyst options, then your Shepard can pretty much stay "your" Shepard during that scene. I never noticed they changed Shepard to be able to sound repulsed at the idea of synthesis. So basically went with the bottom two dialogue options for Control and Synthesis then went and shot the dam tube like Anderson, Hackett and everyone else would want me to. I still reckon there's no way Shepard survived that awkward AF breath scene though.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by shotgunjulia on Jun 8, 2021 19:59:47 GMT
The threshold is somewhere around 7200+, I got it at 7500 with a Paragon Shep and I'm almost at that again with a Renegade Shep. So not that hard to get. The Destroy ending is the only one that doesn't make me depressed for two weeks, ego, it's the canon one lmao. Agreed, I just finished a trilogy completionist run on insanity, finished ME3 with 8300 EMS but you only need 7.2 I think it was back in the day. Not sure if they've lowered it now without MP. Tbh though, if you don't ask the Catalyst to elaborate on anything to do with the Reapers, Crucible or Catalyst options, then your Shepard can pretty much stay "your" Shepard during that scene. I never noticed they changed Shepard to be able to sound repulsed at the idea of synthesis. So basically went with the bottom two dialogue options for Control and Synthesis then went and shot the dam tube like Anderson, Hackett and everyone else would want me to. I still reckon there's no way Shepard survived that awkward AF breath scene though. Seriously this is not the worst of the sins. I still can't stop laughing about Harbinger not blowing away the Normandy during the rescue scene. Unless Harbinger is so stupid that EDI can troll it. And after the laser blast that blew up rubble in front of Shepard? Did Shepard even make it up to the Citadel? Or did that happen in Shepard's mind? Maybe Shepard was still in London laying on the ground partly buried in rubble and the Crucible went off automatically because they actually completed it this time? Or am I going down that indoctrination theory rabbit hole again?
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by 14thcommander on Jun 8, 2021 20:00:05 GMT
The threshold is somewhere around 7200+, I got it at 7500 with a Paragon Shep and I'm almost at that again with a Renegade Shep. So not that hard to get. The Destroy ending is the only one that doesn't make me depressed for two weeks, ego, it's the canon one lmao. Agreed, I just finished a trilogy completionist run on insanity, finished ME3 with 8300 EMS but you only need 7.2 I think it was back in the day. Not sure if they've lowered it now without MP. Tbh though, if you don't ask the Catalyst to elaborate on anything to do with the Reapers, Crucible or Catalyst options, then your Shepard can pretty much stay "your" Shepard during that scene. I never noticed they changed Shepard to be able to sound repulsed at the idea of synthesis. So basically went with the bottom two dialogue options for Control and Synthesis then went and shot the dam tube like Anderson, Hackett and everyone else would want me to. I still reckon there's no way Shepard survived that awkward AF breath scene though. Yeah it seems that the fact it would destroy all synthetics means all the repairs Cerberus made to bring Shepard back would fail, AND the explosion. Like, you see them take a breath and it gives you hope but unless someone gets them medical help ASAP it just isn't logical that they would have survived at all.
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lavigne
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by lavigne on Jun 8, 2021 20:09:39 GMT
unless someone gets them medical help ASAP it just isn't logical that they would have survived at all. In a galaxy where space magic exists, anything is possible....😛 |
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 8, 2021 20:19:17 GMT
Is this to say you wont buy the next ME game at all? Or that you will wait for reviews first and then decide? I guess it is to say that I don't think I'll hold out 4 years for something that doesn't have my interest in a setting that Bioware destroyed themselves. If there's something that Bioware can do to captivate me other than undoing ME3, I guess there is, but I don't think I can tell you what that is, until I see it. I also don't think there's anyone in Bioware that can do it, whatever that is. I can't be definitive, but I don't think it's going to be easy to win me over. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 8, 2021 20:30:00 GMT
And frankly, if I'm being brutally honest. ME2's characters are all very much the same. Parent issues, over and over again, in some form or another. Garrus, Jack, Mordin, Zaeed and Kasumi are the only exceptions to this rule. Using the same trope over and over again in the same narrative, is shit writing. Hardly worth singing praises over. |
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jun 8, 2021 20:34:14 GMT
Everything I say is credible. I am well aware of how things work in life. I am no more pedantic then people who create their own head canon and then complain about bioware not expanding on their own self created head canon as proof of bioware's failure.
The only thing that is different is that I have a perspective and view that is different from your own. And I stand by my view and perspective and you have no idea how to handle someone who thinks and acts differently from you.
In the most recent case questions do not spontaneously spawn out of nothing. They are created by the individual asking. And the reason behind the questions often tells a lot about the person's motivation and reasoning. If you already know something you will not ask a question about it.
All you do is bitch about people's head canon, but that is exactly what you do dude. You invent head canon explanations for Bioware's shit writing, to prove it isn't shit. Get over yourself. You have no clue how to debate. Your just like every other weak ass video essayist on Youtube who refuses to just accept when their wrong. You take your arguments to cartoonish levels of nonsense to try and pull a "gotcha!". You argue like a child, and until that changes no one is going to debate you seriously. For once in your life, accept the objectively reality and improve.
Because people bitch about my head canon. Are you literally upset that I am applying the same logic used against me to other people? You literally use your own head canon to claim the writing is shit. You need to get over yourself and you need to learn how to debate. When someone disagrees with you you don't just scream troll and throw a hissy fit because someone disagrees with you.
You literallly prove my point with that statement:
There is no right or wrong. There is only perspective. The fact you encounter someone with a different perspective and start screaming about being right and wrong really proves my point.
I continue to engage people in debates because their difference in perspective is interesting and in some cases amusing. Like the people who claim the Catalyst is wrong in one breath using Rannoch while completely ignoring the context of events that took place and ignoring the fact a similar set up was done with the Krogan during the Rachni War showing such outcomes are not long term. That argument is then sharply contrasted as they move from the perspective of someone playing a game to the perspective of Shepard existing in the game world to claim the Catalyst has been proven wrong. Because if they stayed in the perspective of someone playing a game then they have to accept the nature of the Catalyst means that the truce is meaningless because the Catalyst is a developer narrative tool.
Either you stick with it being a game and you address narrative situations from the perspective of the person holding the controller. Or you stick to the perspective of the person being controlled in the game. You don't jump between whichever perspective is convenient for your argument. I find that action amusing and fairly wide spread with people who want to complain about the writing or other aspects. And when I point that out they tend not to take it very well.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Jun 8, 2021 20:40:48 GMT
Right, so in other words you can't answer me, because you know I am right, and just refuse to say so. ME1 is a very enjoyable experience, despite its lack of characters. It holds up to this day, as I am playing it right now, and enjoying it immensely. You absolutely could make ME1 today and still be met with success. You say they "raised the bar" with ME2. I disagree entirely, because ME2 has NO FUCKING PLOT. That is not raising the bar, by any metric my dude. That's just moving the bar over there, instead of the bar being here. It's a lateral move at best. You can only get characters that well defined, by removing the entire plot. Which is objectively still shit, it's just a different flavor of shit. I get you want more Strawberry flavored shit instead of the chocolate flavor, but let's not pretend we're ultimately not still arguing over objective shit. And frankly, if I'm being brutally honest. ME2's characters are all very much the same. Parent issues, over and over again, in some form or another. Garrus, Jack, Mordin, Zaeed and Kasumi are the only exceptions to this rule. Using the same trope over and over again in the same narrative, is shit writing. Hardly worth singing praises over.I don't think you're interested in the conversation, or at really examining the points. I don't think you're making an argument in good faith and this is the umpteenth time we're having this conversation, only to throw around unsubstantiated claims about how this is shit and that is shit and no plot and how fuck you, I didn't like it, basically. We could agree to having different tastes and interests and part amicably, but I don't think you'll settle for that, either. No, I think you just love ME2 so much that your utterly blind to it's obvious problems and many shortcomings. Your too emotionally attached to your precious companions to critically examine the game in an unbiased manner. This isn't a matter of taste, it is a matter of objective measurement. ME2's plot is garbage, objectively. That is why the characters are good. ME1's plot is better. The bar is not raised, it is moved laterally to a different priority. This is a fact. You say I am arguing in bad faith, but that is basically what you do constantly my guy, refusing any and all options of this franchise except for your ultra specific checklist. That is the definition of bad faith, just constantly arguing that anything other than the exact thing you want is crap. As for unsubstantiated claims? Come on my guy, your just bullshitting me now Do we really need to go over this again?
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jun 8, 2021 21:14:35 GMT
And frankly, if I'm being brutally honest. ME2's characters are all very much the same. Parent issues, over and over again, in some form or another. Garrus, Jack, Mordin, Zaeed and Kasumi are the only exceptions to this rule. Using the same trope over and over again in the same narrative, is shit writing. Hardly worth singing praises over.At least Grunt was unique in what he wanted. 😋 |
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jun 8, 2021 21:58:32 GMT
No one started simplifying the Reaper's objectives until the Catalyst showed up. That character simplified it for everyone. Looking at it retroactively, their motivations are what causes the events to happen, that doesn't mean it's what fuels the series. The game was not written backwards, the fact is that not even the writer's themselves knew what the Reaper's motivations were in ME1 or even ME2. Because that wasn't what was fuelling the games, it was their presence and their threat to all advanced life. Nothing more needed to be said for the story to come to a conclusion. The development path of civilizations is very complex. There are countless variable that can alter events and paths that could each group down different ways. Small changes to the past could have ended up humanity acting like protheans or asari like krogan. And I am well aware that the wrote the motivation in last rater then the start. But that doesn't change the fact the motivation fits. Simply existing doesn't do anything. Basic existence is neither benevolent nor malevolent. It is your motivations and actions from that motivation that create good or evil. Martian Luther King Jr. did not become a civil rights icon and a force for good by simply existing. It was his motivation and actions from that motivation that turned him from your average run of the mill person into a civil rights icon. Likewise Adolf Hitler simply existing didn't cause the Holocaust. It was his motivation and actions from that motivation that caused it to happen.
And this is an important perspective because the Reaper's motivation and actions from that motivation are the fuel for the entire trilogy. Everything that happens is because of their motivation. Learning that is important because it gives context to everything they have done.
Yes ME2 reconnected ME1 and created a bigger problem. Because a small fraction of Geth were able to pose such a massive threat simply amplifies the the threat. Quarians were the aggressors in the war however there is a difference between self defense and wanton slaughter. The Geth reduced the Quarian population from several billion to a few million in only 2 years. This is far beyond any ability to claim self defense. Novels state that 95-99% of the Quarian population was wiped out. Do you know how many children you have to kill to achieve a 95-99% population drop in 2 years?
I did the math once and if the same degree of death was applied to current day earth then only the UK would survive. And there would be enough dead that if we staked all the skulls one on top of the other in a chain there would be enough to reach 1.9 times the way to the moon. Meaning you could almost climb to the moon and back on human skulls without touching the same twice.
That is the degree and sheer scale of slaughter the Geth dealt to the Quarians. This isn't some scrappy underdog fighting to protect themselves. This is standing on a mountain of bleached skulls shooting fleeing unarmed civilians and children in the back skynet terminator stuff. You can not claim after losing all their colonies and having their population reduced to a single digit of their former numbers that the Quarians were the aggressors.
Legion's server conveniently only shows the parts that support Legion and the Geth. Hand selected events that support and validate their motives but misses the part were the Geth mow down a group of fleeing unarmed civilians. Now Legion's motivation is obvious because it needs Shepard's support and is trying to build sympathy for the Geth. I don't fault it at all for simple self preservation. But Legion purposefully leaves out the details that show the Geth going from self defense into whole sale slaughter of the Quarians beyond any ability to claims self defense.
Both sides are at fault here but only one side actually committed whole sale genocide to near extinction of an entire species, and then tries to claim they are peaceful and non violent when 300 years later those same people who were brought to near extinction show up with a new weapon looking for payback.
Coding is irrelevant. As Legion directly stated in ME2 their perspective was different. Geth say 1 is less then 2 while Heretics say 2 is less then 3. Legion seemed genuenly confused by how far the Heretics deviated from the Geth in their time apart. It is an insight to the Geth's social structure and mentality that they struggle to comprehend how their own race could deviate so much that species that are fundamentally different they have no hope to understand.
You are really going to say that two genocide attempts wouldn't make them view organic life as a threat? You should try killing or not activating Legion during one play though. The Geth VI has a very different perspective on organic life. Viewing it with suspicion and mistrust and not understanding how Legion could befriend Shepard. Given the highly suspicious nature of Shepard to start with I think it is highly, highly likely that in the event of the Quarian attack the Geth would view all organic life has hostile.
There are limits to what organics will do. When faced with the krogan rebellion they chose to enact the genophage to reduce birth rates and force the krogan to surrender and put them in a DMZ zone baning them form warships and WMDs. When faced with the quarians the geth wiped out billions offering no chance to surrender or to leave the system and disappear into the unexplored galaxy. They just kept killing and killing and killing until a tiny fragment of Quarans fleeing in what ever ships they could left the system.
There is a difference between targeting military objectives and military personal and simply nuking an entire country into a radioactive parking lot.
Yea writers can have different ideas of how characters are handled. This is pretty basic stuff.
You literally complained about developers releasing an unfinished game and updating it later to finish it. Within that context the fact ME3 only had an original 1.5 year development cycle extended to 2 years is very relevant.
The original EMS was so high you needed the MP. BioWare reduced the EMS required and with the DLC eliminated the need to ever touch it. With all the DLC you basically could hit best ending EMS level by Rannoch. Fans complained the original ending was to brief and unsatisfactory. So they released the EC for free that expanded the conversation and gave some post choice cut scenes to expand the endings. web.archive.org/web/20160815021042/http://social.bioware.com/page/me3-patches
Loco for male shepards. Actually there is some depth to him when you spar with him. Talking about a Collector attack and he was forced to choose between saving the colonists or the data to help against the Collectors. Choosing the data only to find out that Shepard blew up the Collector base and rendered his action irrelevant meaning he let all those colonist die for no reason. Starting off bitter and angry at events before learning to accept them and becoming more friendly with Shepard. Even asking Shepard if they should join the N7 program. Plus the back and forth banter between him and Cortez makes them seem like they are actual people who exist.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2021 22:28:16 GMT
^^^^ blah blah blah he's still 1000% jersey shore, and a halfwit. Defend that trash all day, I will just laugh at you.
For somebody with such a high opinion of their own ability to judge quality in writing, it is painfully obvious you in fact just have no taste.
Edit: any Steve Cortez I know IRL would have knocked out James Vega. Maybe became friends later, but no Vega he doesn't love the show you weird egomaniac.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 8, 2021 22:49:57 GMT
No, I think you just love ME2 so much that your utterly blind to it's obvious problems and many shortcomings. I think ME2 has a ton of problems, to be honest. From skills, to inventory,to hub worlds, to missions, to character content, to plot holes/contrivances, to how a lot of the ingame decisions impact the game, which is a writing problem, the loading screens instead of the ingame loading screens of ME1 (elevators), the planet scaning, the mini games etc. etc. etc. There's a plethora of problems with ME2 and I recognize all of them. Your too emotionally attached to your precious companions to critically examine the game in an unbiased manner. I think I just did. This isn't a matter of taste, it is a matter of objective measurement. ME2's plot is garbage, objectively. That is why the characters are good. ME1's plot is better. The bar is not raised, it is moved laterally to a different priority. This is a fact And maybe some people enjoy a character driven story, to a plot driven story. Marvel knows that. The MCU is, possibly, the most prominent example of successful character driven story telling. And all the movies have their own faults. Some greater, some lesser. You say I am arguing in bad faith, but that is basically what you do constantly my guy, refusing any and all options of this franchise except for your ultra specific checklist Well, I like what I like and I believe what I believe. I don't have a good time talking to the new characters Bioware introduces and that puts me off from talking to them. It puts me off from playing with them and it puts me off from keeping them. If they annoy me and are detrimental to the experience, if I have to spend the entire game with them, then yes, I don't want this game. What is wrong with that? That is the definition of bad faith, just constantly arguing that anything other than the exact thing you want is crap I'm not saying that anything I don't want is crap. I'm just saying I don't expect it to be equal or better. And if all I have to look forward to are Iron Bulls, Coles, Seras, Viviennes, Liams, Peebee, Coras and ... I forget the names of all the other characters ... Owen, from Anthem. If this is the character bar Bioware has set, then please, please bring back the Trilogy crew. I beg you. Yes, I've read Shamus' stuff. The end point is that Bioware didn't do what he thought they should do. I think it worked better for them. |
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Post by themikefest on Jun 8, 2021 23:37:29 GMT
Seriously this is not the worst of the sins. I still can't stop laughing about Harbinger not blowing away the Normandy during the rescue scene. Unless Harbinger is so stupid that EDI can troll it. And after the laser blast that blew up rubble in front of Shepard? Did Shepard even make it up to the Citadel? Or did that happen in Shepard's mind? Maybe Shepard was still in London laying on the ground partly buried in rubble and the Crucible went off automatically because they actually completed it this time? Or am I going down that indoctrination theory rabbit hole again? I would say Shepard is dead. I know if I were to face thing, and hear it using 3 different voices, I would think I'm dead. Unfortunately Shepard can't ask thing why it's using 3 voices. Had Bioware added the reaper chronicles dlc, Harbinger would have blown up the SR2 You want to laugh even more? Apparently everyone suffered from temporary blindness not to notice the reaper fly away leaving the beam unguarded. You want to know why? It was done so Anderson and Shepard can have that touchy-feely scene on the Citadel.
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Post by jadebaby88 on Jun 9, 2021 2:45:40 GMT
Agreed, I just finished a trilogy completionist run on insanity, finished ME3 with 8300 EMS but you only need 7.2 I think it was back in the day. Not sure if they've lowered it now without MP. Tbh though, if you don't ask the Catalyst to elaborate on anything to do with the Reapers, Crucible or Catalyst options, then your Shepard can pretty much stay "your" Shepard during that scene. I never noticed they changed Shepard to be able to sound repulsed at the idea of synthesis. So basically went with the bottom two dialogue options for Control and Synthesis then went and shot the dam tube like Anderson, Hackett and everyone else would want me to. I still reckon there's no way Shepard survived that awkward AF breath scene though. Seriously this is not the worst of the sins. I still can't stop laughing about Harbinger not blowing away the Normandy during the rescue scene. Unless Harbinger is so stupid that EDI can troll it. And after the laser blast that blew up rubble in front of Shepard? Did Shepard even make it up to the Citadel? Or did that happen in Shepard's mind? Maybe Shepard was still in London laying on the ground partly buried in rubble and the Crucible went off automatically because they actually completed it this time? Or am I going down that indoctrination theory rabbit hole again? There's nothing wrong with "lots of speculation for everyone!"  It's true though, it even shows Harby in the background when you first see the Normandy rock up just chilling there waiting. Then why does it say "serve us" or "save us" before it beams Shepard? But then there are so many "whys" from the start of the beam run to the final credits that it's hard to know wtf is going on at all. It just goes to show how rushed the whole thing was, I always laugh when you're halfway through having the "goodbye talks" with everyone, then there's this random as out of place combat scene where you have to shoot things from a turret before something just drops a bomb and it's abruptly all over? lol
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Post by jadebaby88 on Jun 9, 2021 2:54:10 GMT
Is this to say you wont buy the next ME game at all? Or that you will wait for reviews first and then decide? I guess it is to say that I don't think I'll hold out 4 years for something that doesn't have my interest in a setting that Bioware destroyed themselves. If there's something that Bioware can do to captivate me other than undoing ME3, I guess there is, but I don't think I can tell you what that is, until I see it. I also don't think there's anyone in Bioware that can do it, whatever that is. I can't be definitive, but I don't think it's going to be easy to win me over. And that's perfectly understandable, because it's also BioWare's fault that you were even a fan to begin with. The fact is the first 2.5 games brought in so many fans with high standards and requirements as to what they need to be satisfied or immersed in a video game world. So when the writing plummeted at the end, all trust was broken and Mass Effect became something different. Something frivolous and cheap.
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Post by andydandymandy on Jun 9, 2021 2:54:44 GMT
It had the same development cycle as Dragon Age 2 so yes, it was rushed out the door and treated like a cash grab by EA.
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Post by lavigne on Jun 9, 2021 6:33:33 GMT
It was great how BW managed to confound expectations though. Everyone expected a final boss fight with Harbinger or TIM....instead we got a cozy lecture off of Casper the (Un)friendly Ghost, before getting to choose between the red, blue or green Jim Jones Kool Aid. Who saw that coming?!
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