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0
Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
5,628
SirSourpuss
7,694
Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Mar 14, 2021 3:11:12 GMT
Do patches not count as live updates? Then every game ever made would be a live service. Basically, a live service game is a game that requires a central server, owned by the publisher, for the game to run and the moment the server goes offline, the game is no longer available to the players. As long as the server is live, the game is live. In that sense, every MMO has been a live service. Diablo 3 is a live service. The moment the company bring the server down permanently, the game is no longer live.
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pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Mar 14, 2021 3:30:40 GMT
Do patches not count as live updates? Then every game ever made would be a live service. Basically, a live service game is a game that requires a central server, owned by the publisher, for the game to run and the moment the server goes offline, the game is no longer available to the players. As long as the server is live, the game is live. In that sense, every MMO has been a live service. Diablo 3 is a live service. The moment the company bring the server down permanently, the game is no longer live. Well according to BioWare, all their games since at least DAO and ME1 ARE live-service, but they don't need active servers to play, so that's obviously not the way everyone defines it.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Mar 14, 2021 3:35:39 GMT
Well according to BioWare, all their games since at least DAO and ME1 ARE live-service, but they don't need active servers to play, so that's obviously not the way everyone defines it. Then there is simply nothing live about it. Listen, EA can interpret loot boxes as surprise mechanics and tell Belgium that they misinterpret their own laws. Sure, under those conditions, my dead cat can also be interpreted as a live service, while it lived. Bioware can say it, it doesn't make it true.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 14, 2021 3:41:31 GMT
My reaction to people telling Bioware what a live service game is:
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Mar 14, 2021 4:07:30 GMT
Well according to BioWare, all their games since at least DAO and ME1 ARE live-service, but they don't need active servers to play, so that's obviously not the way everyone defines it. Then there is simply nothing live about it. Listen, EA can interpret loot boxes as surprise mechanics and tell Belgium that they misinterpret their own laws. Sure, under those conditions, my dead cat can also be interpreted as a live service, while it lived. Bioware can say it, it doesn't make it true. What makes anything that YOU say true?
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Post by river82 on Mar 14, 2021 4:46:03 GMT
My reaction to people telling Bioware what a live service game is: That's my reaction to anyone who thinks developers are the authority on genres. The idea that developers can define redefine genres how they see fit is arrogance and stupidity actually. As I said before firstly the english language doesn't worth that way and secondly genres aren't for them. They can use genres, they can take existing definitions of genres, they cannot tell people what genres are. That is not their place. Live service games are known as Games as a service. It is a subset of the category Software as a service with an already established definition. End of story. People don't need Bioware to tell them anything, look up software as a service, apply it to video games, and there you go. You have your definition. Bioware is not an authority on this subject. Period. Any game developer who thinks they are the authority on the definition of genres needs to learn their place, because their arrogance is breathtaking.
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Post by river82 on Mar 14, 2021 5:02:10 GMT
Well according to BioWare, all their games since at least DAO and ME1 ARE live-service, but they don't need active servers to play, so that's obviously not the way everyone defines it. Then there is simply nothing live about it. Listen, EA can interpret loot boxes as surprise mechanics and tell Belgium that they misinterpret their own laws. Sure, under those conditions, my dead cat can also be interpreted as a live service, while it lived. Bioware can say it, it doesn't make it true. That's not the worst one. Remember when EA tried to redefine the word "delay" to suit their purposes: “Regardless of how it’s being portrayed, we’re not looking at that as a delay, we’ve chosen to launch Anthem in [the fourth quarter]. The date is chosen by by portfolio balance, not product readiness,”Funny, I look up the meaning of the word "delay" and I don't see anything about "product readiness". Delay: Postpone or defer. I'm sorry but show me where it says to delay something is to postpone due to product readiness. I'm not interested in corporations redefining words to meet their own agendas. They are not the authority of the english language, these terms have already established definitions and they are not the gatekeeper of those definitions. They make games, that is all. I'm not going to pretend they are something they are not.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Mar 14, 2021 11:30:53 GMT
What makes anything that YOU say true? Because there has to be a "live" element to the service. If your definition of a "live" service is every game that ever got even a single patch, we've had live service games since the 90s. And not just games. Every piece of software that ever got a patch, is also a live service. Which simply isn't true. I mean, do you use, or the company your work for, or the company you own use any accounting software? Or any kind of ERP? Did it ever get a patch? Do they consider it a live service? Do they list it as a live service? Was it sold to you as a live service? Why doesn't anyone consider the ERP a live service? The terms is only commonly used today for products that require a constant online connection to a server. Hence the live. Steam is a live service, for example. EA Play, formerly known as Origin Access, is a live service. Anthem is a live service. ME2 is not a live service.
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Post by githcheater on Mar 14, 2021 17:29:19 GMT
ERP requires a connection to my company's server ... and the content is constantly changing. LOL
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Mar 14, 2021 17:46:08 GMT
ERP requires a connection to my company's server ... and the content is constantly changing. LOL Well, I've not come across one such ERP, but in this case, it is more than a simple service. It would be live. Do you need to be logged on their server the entire time you are using it? Then it does qualify.
- Constant online connection
- Support and added functionality over time that modifies the original product
- Subscription or other monetization type based license
It qualifies.
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by githcheater on Mar 14, 2021 18:06:29 GMT
Yep I need to be logged on ...
Our IT department develops stuff for our ERP system, but quality assurance get secondary attention, as QA doesn't produce or sell product.
I am not sure if it is subscription, but my company just bought an upgrade to the ERP software.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Mar 14, 2021 18:08:31 GMT
I am not sure if it is subscription, but my company just bought an upgrade to the ERP software. It does involve a recurring spending method. A one time purchase license wouldn't make it a live service, as recurring spending is a requirement for the model.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 14, 2021 19:06:05 GMT
My reaction to people telling Bioware what a live service game is: That's my reaction to anyone who thinks developers are the authority on genres. The idea that developers can define redefine genres how they see fit is arrogance and stupidity actually. As I said before firstly the english language doesn't worth that way and secondly genres aren't for them. They can use genres, they can take existing definitions of genres, they cannot tell people what genres are. That is not their place. Live service games are known as Games as a service. It is a subset of the category Software as a service with an already established definition. End of story. People don't need Bioware to tell them anything, look up software as a service, apply it to video games, and there you go. You have your definition. Bioware is not an authority on this subject. Period. Any game developer who thinks they are the authority on the definition of genres needs to learn their place, because their arrogance is breathtaking. Yes this is an incredibly arrogant position to have. 1. None of us work in the game industry. Or very few of us so none of us are qualified to really speak on this issue... At least to the point where we can be bold enough to call people liars. That is incredibly arrogant. Sure there is corporate speak but even then its foolish...especially when... 2. It does not matter how Ubisoft defines live service, it does not matter how Microsoft defines live service, it does not matter how IBM or whatever this ERP is defines live service, for these purposes all that matters is how BioWare defines live service. 3. As long as their definition is logically consistent and looking around the industry...it seems pretty consistent. What do games like Ghost Recon Wildlands, Breakpoint, Odyssey, Anthem, DAI, Avengers all have in common? Post launch support. Including patches, DLCs, road maps, etc. Yes there are some games that are obviously more 'live' then others but its perfectmy acceptable to me to consider live service or a live game as anything that recieves post launch support, including patches. Those patches make games alive and dynamic and not dead hunks of software.
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Post by smilesja on Mar 14, 2021 19:07:31 GMT
That's my reaction to anyone who thinks developers are the authority on genres. The idea that developers can define redefine genres how they see fit is arrogance and stupidity actually. As I said before firstly the english language doesn't worth that way and secondly genres aren't for them. They can use genres, they can take existing definitions of genres, they cannot tell people what genres are. That is not their place. Live service games are known as Games as a service. It is a subset of the category Software as a service with an already established definition. End of story. People don't need Bioware to tell them anything, look up software as a service, apply it to video games, and there you go. You have your definition. Bioware is not an authority on this subject. Period. Any game developer who thinks they are the authority on the definition of genres needs to learn their place, because their arrogance is breathtaking. Yes this is an incredibly arrogant position to have. 1. None of us work in the game industry. Or very few of us so none of us are qualified to really speak on this issue... At least to the point where we can be bold enough to call people liars. That is incredibly arrogant. Sure there is corporate speak but even then its foolish...especially when... 2. It does not matter how Ubisoft defines live service, it does not matter how Microsoft defines live service, it does not matter how IBM or whatever this ERP is defines live service, for these purposes all that matters is how BioWare defines live service. 3. As long as their definition is logically consistent and looking around the industry...it seems pretty consistent. What do games like Ghost Recon Wildlands, Breakpoint, Odyssey, Anthem, DAI, Avengers all have in common? Post launch support. Including patches, DLCs, road maps, etc. Yes there are some games that are obviously more 'live' then others but its perfectmy acceptable to me to consider live service or a live game as anything that recieves post launch support, including patches. Those patches make games alive and dynamic and not dead hunks of software.
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Post by river82 on Mar 14, 2021 20:51:23 GMT
That's my reaction to anyone who thinks developers are the authority on genres. The idea that developers can define redefine genres how they see fit is arrogance and stupidity actually. As I said before firstly the english language doesn't worth that way and secondly genres aren't for them. They can use genres, they can take existing definitions of genres, they cannot tell people what genres are. That is not their place. Live service games are known as Games as a service. It is a subset of the category Software as a service with an already established definition. End of story. People don't need Bioware to tell them anything, look up software as a service, apply it to video games, and there you go. You have your definition. Bioware is not an authority on this subject. Period. Any game developer who thinks they are the authority on the definition of genres needs to learn their place, because their arrogance is breathtaking. Yes this is an incredibly arrogant position to have. 1. None of us work in the game industry. Or very few of us so none of us are qualified to really speak on this issue... At least to the point where we can be bold enough to call people liars. That is incredibly arrogant. Sure there is corporate speak but even then its foolish...especially when... 2. It does not matter how Ubisoft defines live service, it does not matter how Microsoft defines live service, it does not matter how IBM or whatever this ERP is defines live service, for these purposes all that matters is how BioWare defines live service. 3. As long as their definition is logically consistent and looking around the industry...it seems pretty consistent. What do games like Ghost Recon Wildlands, Breakpoint, Odyssey, Anthem, DAI, Avengers all have in common? Post launch support. Including patches, DLCs, road maps, etc. Yes there are some games that are obviously more 'live' then others but its perfectmy acceptable to me to consider live service or a live game as anything that recieves post launch support, including patches. Those patches make games alive and dynamic and not dead hunks of software. If you're talking about Game Developers not knowing their place then yes, I agree with you. Game developers who don't know their place ARE incredibly arrogant. End of story. 1 - Has nothing to do with working in the game industry. As I said before, genres are not for them. The english language is adopted by the community, and genres are developed and maintained by the consumers. Game developers are not gate keepers here, and certainly not gate keepers of the english language. That is not their place. 2 - Bioware does not get to redefine how people use live service to refer to their games. Ever. 3 - If it's logically consistent then it isn't a problem. If it's against how the community uses the term then they're using it wrong. That simple.
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Post by river82 on Mar 14, 2021 21:10:47 GMT
You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to speak with my doctor friend and have him redefine the word "scalpel" to mean "a fluffy, cute, child's toy". He's a doctor, it's one of his tools of the trade, none of us are qualified to say anything about the issue and it doesn't matter how other doctors use it, his use of the word MUST be valid because he works in the industry and that's his tool.
"Pass the kid a scalpel" he'll tell people, and people will look at him funny and he'll start pointing vigorously at cute bears while yelling "SCALPEL! SCALPEL"
Don't be arrogant and call him out on it...
Next I'll talk to my accountant friend about making a new definition for "sell-through".
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Post by colfoley on Mar 14, 2021 21:39:14 GMT
Yes this is an incredibly arrogant position to have. 1. None of us work in the game industry. Or very few of us so none of us are qualified to really speak on this issue... At least to the point where we can be bold enough to call people liars. That is incredibly arrogant. Sure there is corporate speak but even then its foolish...especially when... 2. It does not matter how Ubisoft defines live service, it does not matter how Microsoft defines live service, it does not matter how IBM or whatever this ERP is defines live service, for these purposes all that matters is how BioWare defines live service. 3. As long as their definition is logically consistent and looking around the industry...it seems pretty consistent. What do games like Ghost Recon Wildlands, Breakpoint, Odyssey, Anthem, DAI, Avengers all have in common? Post launch support. Including patches, DLCs, road maps, etc. Yes there are some games that are obviously more 'live' then others but its perfectmy acceptable to me to consider live service or a live game as anything that recieves post launch support, including patches. Those patches make games alive and dynamic and not dead hunks of software. If you're talking about Game Developers not knowing their place then yes, I agree with you. Game developers who don't know their place ARE incredibly arrogant. End of story. 1 - Has nothing to do with working in the game industry. As I said before, genres are not for them. The english language is adopted by the community, and genres are developed and maintained by the consumers. Game developers are not gate keepers here, and certainly not gate keepers of the english language. That is not their place. 2 - Bioware does not get to redefine how people use live service to refer to their games. Ever. 3 - If it's logically consistent then it isn't a problem. If it's against how the community uses the term then they're using it wrong. That simple. argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy. Its that simple.
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Post by river82 on Mar 14, 2021 21:44:50 GMT
If you're talking about Game Developers not knowing their place then yes, I agree with you. Game developers who don't know their place ARE incredibly arrogant. End of story. 1 - Has nothing to do with working in the game industry. As I said before, genres are not for them. The english language is adopted by the community, and genres are developed and maintained by the consumers. Game developers are not gate keepers here, and certainly not gate keepers of the english language. That is not their place. 2 - Bioware does not get to redefine how people use live service to refer to their games. Ever. 3 - If it's logically consistent then it isn't a problem. If it's against how the community uses the term then they're using it wrong. That simple. argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy. Its that simple. When dictionary owners decide what words are placed in a dictionary, the simple criteria is "if people use those words to mean certain things" or if people use the word a lot it is now a word. This is how the English language is developed, through community usage, adoption and evolution. Your fallacy doesn't apply when talking about the meanings of words, because ad popullum is how new words and phrases come about. A word gets into a dictionary when it is used by many people who all agree that it means the same thing. If your toddler nephew invented a great word that the English language simply can’t do without, don’t write to us to recommend that it be added to the dictionary. Use it. First, you drop the word into your conversation and writing, then others pick it up; the more its use spreads, the more likely it will be noticed by dictionary editors, or lexicographers. If your nephew’s word is one that English speakers decide we need, it has a good chance of getting into the dictionary.From Merriam WebsterOr in other words, words are formed when a community decides that's what it means. Not an individual company. Ever.
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Gileadan
N5
Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
Posts: 2,919 Likes: 7,496
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Dec 12, 2024 19:11:55 GMT
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
ALoneGretchin
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Post by Gileadan on Mar 14, 2021 21:57:07 GMT
However BioWare or anyone else defines live service, it must have been different enough from their standard patch/DLC post launch support routine to require a reboot of Dragon Age 4 (from Joplin to Morrison, and now back to single player only). If live service (according to BioWare) was defined as "patches and DLC post launch", then no reboot would have been necessary because they had been doing that for many years now. Patches can't possibly require a reboot, and neither should DLC, certainly not while the game is still in pre-production and DLC can be planned for accordingly. Whatever the reboots did, it must have been such a significant change to the game's structure that it could not be accomplished by patching or adding DLC.
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Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
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October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Mar 14, 2021 22:43:20 GMT
You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to speak with my doctor friend and have him redefine the word "scalpel" to mean "a fluffy, cute, child's toy". He's a doctor, it's one of his tools of the trade, none of us are qualified to say anything about the issue and it doesn't matter how other doctors use it, his use of the word MUST be valid because he works in the industry and that's his tool. "Pass the kid a scalpel" he'll tell people, and people will look at him funny and he'll start pointing vigorously at cute bears while yelling "SCALPEL! SCALPEL" Don't be arrogant and call him out on it... Next I'll talk to my accountant friend about making a new definition for "sell-through". Hey man, better than when my butcher redefined beef steaks to mean anal bleaching. It still itches.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 14, 2021 23:20:05 GMT
argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy. Its that simple. When dictionary owners decide what words are placed in a dictionary, the simple criteria is "if people use those words to mean certain things" or if people use the word a lot it is now a word. This is how the English language is developed, through community usage, adoption and evolution. Your fallacy doesn't apply when talking about the meanings of words, because ad popullum is how new words and phrases come about. A word gets into a dictionary when it is used by many people who all agree that it means the same thing. If your toddler nephew invented a great word that the English language simply can’t do without, don’t write to us to recommend that it be added to the dictionary. Use it. First, you drop the word into your conversation and writing, then others pick it up; the more its use spreads, the more likely it will be noticed by dictionary editors, or lexicographers. If your nephew’s word is one that English speakers decide we need, it has a good chance of getting into the dictionary.From Merriam WebsterOr in other words, words are formed when a community decides that's what it means. Not an individual company. Ever. Your argument is only compelling if you can find me the dictionary definition of what the term 'live service games' is or what 'games as a service' are. If you can find it in Meriam Webster or on the actual dictionary.com or some other similar source and that definition seems to contradict the BioWare one...we can discuss its merits...and it would be pretty compelling evidence. Note though: This is specifically referring to games, I will not accept 'software as a service' since while all games are software...not all software are games. However BioWare or anyone else defines live service, it must have been different enough from their standard patch/DLC post launch support routine to require a reboot of Dragon Age 4 (from Joplin to Morrison, and now back to single player only). If live service (according to BioWare) was defined as "patches and DLC post launch", then no reboot would have been necessary because they had been doing that for many years now. Patches can't possibly require a reboot, and neither should DLC, certainly not while the game is still in pre-production and DLC can be planned for accordingly. Whatever the reboots did, it must have been such a significant change to the game's structure that it could not be accomplished by patching or adding DLC. Actually @glitchcheater might give us a clue. A way for monetizing games after launch which I also find to be an interesting and apt take on it. So things like DLC, Seasons Passes, and Post Launch cosmetic stores which are added to throughout a game's 'life cycle' all can count as 'live service' under this umbrella because we are all having to buy that post launch content as it comes out. Things like patches, while maybe still a stretch, can also count under this umbrella. Yes you do not 'pay' for patches (thank God) but if a video game company does not take an effort to improve their games and squash bugs in a post release world then us, the consumer, will not be as inclined to continue to buy their products and their expansions after the fact considering how much of a buggy mess the game is. This is especially true in today's context since some companies are now using patches to actually release new quests and other content (like Odyssey) and live events in my experience usually comes with a patch right before it starts which sets up and changes the game's infrastructure to allow for it (Breakpoint, Vahalla, Anthem) Now as for why BioWare needed to reboot Dragon Age 4 originally. Well we forget that Anthem was an utter tire fire at that time and all hands on deck for it so I am gathering that all production on DA 4 essentially stopped....and it might've been very awkward to start production, stop it, then start it again. But also consider: 1. The media might be being very fast and loose with the definition of what a 'reboot' is. Afterall the current article makes no mention that the project has been rebooted again (to the best of my knowledge) 2. While no doubt making the game 'more' 'live service' had something to do with it I do remember the original article also went into things like story and gameplay scope and I remember, while parts of it did sound good, I just got the feeling that it might not have been a compelling game and...while this may be reading too much into it...I also have the sneaking suspcion that bizarrely the original project didn't have much to do with Inquisition. And that it didn't fit in with EAs desires about scope and what they were trying to sell. So yes it was 'rebooted' to include more Live Service (which it still might) but there was also a lot more other changes which happened as a result of that reboot.
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Post by githcheater on Mar 15, 2021 0:05:35 GMT
Actually @glitchcheater might give us a clue. I think I found a glitch ...
Are you referring to githcheater?
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Post by colfoley on Mar 15, 2021 0:57:14 GMT
Actually @glitchcheater might give us a clue. I think I found a glitch ...
Are you referring to githcheater?
my bad.
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Post by river82 on Mar 15, 2021 2:34:47 GMT
Your argument is only compelling if you can find me the dictionary definition of what the term 'live service games' is or what 'games as a service' are. Not particularly. Dictionaries record words that have found their way into the english language, the criteria for words to find their way into the english language was posted above. Because inventing your own words and expecting everyone to know what you mean is called linguistic masturbation, and expecting everyone else to know what you mean is the height of arrogance. Nobody's a mind reader, the definition is there, you can change it for your own private use but expect others to know your own private definition is only if you're stupid. Just as words commonly formed in the entire community find their way into the lexicon, and are recorded, words commonly used in smaller communities still find their way into lexicons whether they're recorded or not. For example gamers know what "endgame" is, it won't be in the dictionary, and if you change that definition you'll be called out on it. Note though: This is specifically referring to games, I will not accept 'software as a service' since while all games are software...not all software are Err ... games are a subcategory for software so the definition of SOFTWARE also applies to GAMES. Show me a definition of software that doesn't apply to games. It's only logical. Games as a service are a subcategory of Software as a service, so the definition of Software as a Service also applies to Games as a service. Are you actually being for real right now? :S
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Post by biggydx on Mar 15, 2021 4:38:23 GMT
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