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Post by colfoley on Mar 23, 2021 6:09:12 GMT
As they did...repeatedly. Honestly as much crap people given Andromeda I cannot think of as many instances where Ryder could do things just to be cool like Shepard and the rest of the trilogy. Andromeda doesn't get away from this either, sadly, because of the alien companions' armor, or lack thereof. Ugh now that I remember it I think Jaal might've had the same issue, on this one specifically anyways.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 23, 2021 6:16:29 GMT
Andromeda doesn't get away from this either, sadly, because of the alien companions' armor, or lack thereof. Ugh now that I remember it I think Jaal might've had the same issue, on this one specifically anyways. Yeah, Jaal uses a breather mask instead of a proper Angaran helmet, which is ironic since Ryder can friggin wear one lol. I took Peebee to the Asari ark, and I was sad to see that mask in the area where it's actually a vacuum. I'm pretty sure Drack will wear a full helmet, but it doesn't really matter since his arms are exposed, which was the same issue with Grunt.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 23, 2021 6:26:47 GMT
On this subject sometimes I legitimtley wonder why I love these games so much, all four of them. So many little and big things they do wrong and yet they are still very endearing and very awesome in their own way.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 23, 2021 6:31:26 GMT
Ugh now that I remember it I think Jaal might've had the same issue, on this one specifically anyways. Yeah, Jaal uses a breather mask instead of a proper Angaran helmet, which is ironic since Ryder can friggin wear one lol. I took Peebee to the Asari ark, and I was sad to see that mask in the area where it's actually a vacuum. I'm pretty sure Drack will wear a full helmet, but it doesn't really matter since his arms are exposed, which was the same issue with Grunt. They were so close with Drack, since it’s only the one arm exposed (his other looks sealed and is a prosthetic anyway so that’s fine). At least Vetra was able to have a full suit like Ryder, Cora, and Liam. And as you said earlier with Jack and a Tank Girl like suit, it’s not like they couldn’t be personalized to be iconic and fit the characters. I posted in another conversation about this some armors from Halo, where so many Spartans each have unique sets of full armor but are still iconic that at a glance any Halo fan could tell you who they were. They also did that with Halo 3:ODST, and that’s using the same armor and helmet as a base. Or the clones in Star Wars, which likewise are the same basic armor and helmet but each customized it to fit their personality and fans knew who was who.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 23, 2021 6:40:42 GMT
On this subject sometimes I legitimtley wonder why I love these games so much, all four of them. So many little and big things they do wrong and yet they are still very endearing and very awesome in their own way. I tolerate a lot of this stuff for sake of its characters. It's the same reason why I don't allow the copypasta dungeons and obscenely low res NPC's of Dragon Age 2 to completely remove me from the game.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 23, 2021 6:44:17 GMT
On this subject sometimes I legitimtley wonder why I love these games so much, all four of them. So many little and big things they do wrong and yet they are still very endearing and very awesome in their own way. I tolerate a lot of this stuff for sake of its characters. It's the same reason why I don't allow the copypasta dungeons and obscenely low res NPC's of Dragon Age 2 to completely remove me from the game. That's certainly true. I think BioWare when they hit a home run can really work and make us forgive a lot of the bad stuff. I mean the stuff about the helmets or even the bad combat tactics in ME 3 don't bother me that much because that is fairly standard Sci fi nonsense... but things like Shepard becoming a Spectre, the nonsense tied to the Collector Ship in ME 2, and then the absolute destruction of TIMs character in ME 3 is more the stuff that bothers me.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2021 11:40:06 GMT
I tolerate a lot of this stuff for sake of its characters. It's the same reason why I don't allow the copypasta dungeons and obscenely low res NPC's of Dragon Age 2 to completely remove me from the game. That's certainly true. I think BioWare when they hit a home run can really work and make us forgive a lot of the bad stuff. I mean the stuff about the helmets or even the bad combat tactics in ME 3 don't bother me that much because that is fairly standard Sci fi nonsense... but things like Shepard becoming a Spectre, the nonsense tied to the Collector Ship in ME 2, and then the absolute destruction of TIMs character in ME 3 is more the stuff that bothers me. Suspension of disbelief and its maintenance is the real work of art. When it shatters, you've lost your audience.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Mar 23, 2021 14:36:52 GMT
The game started ignoring physics long before that. The whole setup to Priority Earth is absolutely ridiculous. You've got a million ships coming though the relay and firing a billion mass accelerator rounds (each with the force of a nuclear weapon) at the Reapers sitting with their back to Earth. Hope literally none of them missed! Take back Earth? Shouldn't be anything left to take back. Honestly, though, this is a problem with the audience. It's not like Bio wasn't aware of the problems with launching an attack on a fleet over a garden world -- there's literally a Codex entry about this. The problem is that depicting the actual tactics necessary to avoid getting Earth into the fleet's firing solution would have made the cutscenes look weird to the dumbasses in the fanbase. There was a time when I thought the fanbase could be trusted with accurate depictions, but I've lost the faith. Despite all the claims no one actually wants realistic military tactics in their fantasy video games. Even the most realistic ones are still only paying lip service at best to real world physics. Then they complain that it isn't realistic enough. it is a hilariously catch 22.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Mar 23, 2021 14:39:24 GMT
I'd say it was more they went with rule of cool more as of ME2, and not so much dumb ass fans. I guess you can have 2 responses to rule of cool. Say, that breaks physics or you can give a out for why it works. Stupid breathers in ME2, say mass effect fields keep them pressurized they just need air etc. I'm okay filling in excuses for why it works I guess. It is not like the tech is fully explained. It’s always headache inducing when I read defenses for those stupid breathers, like preserving “iconic” appearances. Like, why the fuck would I care about iconic appearance? Imagine doing a mission on Luna and our companions are standing there with a goddamn plexi-mask that just covers their mouth and nose. I gave up on Mass Effect giving us believable gear in our space game. Why does this bother you? The game is already full of game play limits like the fact you can only take 2 people with you. That medi gel allows you to be shot multiple times and heal up from it and continue on like no problem. The fact you can be shot and your hard suit breached but you continue on in space like no problem.
If you really want to get pedantic over video game stuff then the second you take health damage on any non garden world you are dead. The second you get hit with a rocket you are dead.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 23, 2021 15:04:17 GMT
It’s always headache inducing when I read defenses for those stupid breathers, like preserving “iconic” appearances. Like, why the fuck would I care about iconic appearance? Imagine doing a mission on Luna and our companions are standing there with a goddamn plexi-mask that just covers their mouth and nose. I gave up on Mass Effect giving us believable gear in our space game. Why does this bother you? The game is already full of game play limits like the fact you can only take 2 people with you. That medi gel allows you to be shot multiple times and heal up from it and continue on like no problem. The fact you can be shot and your hard suit breached but you continue on in space like no problem.
If you really want to get pedantic over video game stuff then the second you take health damage on any non garden world you are dead. The second you get hit with a rocket you are dead.
I’m well aware of ludonarrative dissonance, and that a game needs to have certain mechanics in place in order to function without being needlessly frustrating. Things like art direction, however, are not in the same vein as game mechanics. To some degree, this science fiction story is trying to take itself at least a little seriously, and the way things are designed and presented is a part of that. If we were on Luna, and our companions used breather masks with exposed eyes, would this be something that’s just hunky-dory because “wElL wE dOnT dIe In 1 ShOt”? You can call it pedantic all you like, but that’s just silly. This argument might as well say “just turn your brain off you fucking nerd.”
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Mar 23, 2021 15:54:23 GMT
Why does this bother you? The game is already full of game play limits like the fact you can only take 2 people with you. That medi gel allows you to be shot multiple times and heal up from it and continue on like no problem. The fact you can be shot and your hard suit breached but you continue on in space like no problem.
If you really want to get pedantic over video game stuff then the second you take health damage on any non garden world you are dead. The second you get hit with a rocket you are dead.
I’m well aware of ludonarrative dissonance, and that a game needs to have certain mechanics in place in order to function without being needlessly frustrating. Things like art direction, however, are not in the same vein as game mechanics. To some degree, this science fiction story is trying to take itself at least a little seriously, and the way things are designed and presented is a part of that. If we were on Luna, and our companions used breather masks with exposed eyes, would this be something that’s just hunky-dory because “wElL wE dOnT dIe In 1 ShOt”? You can call it pedantic all you like, but that’s just silly. This argument might as well say “just turn your brain off you fucking nerd.” Art direction is the same level of deciding when a single bullet is lethal and when you can face tank so many that you could legally be considered 20% lead. I perfer the system introduced in ME2 were I can actually see the character models. That looks way better from a visual stand point then the hard suit armor of ME1. It isn't realistic but neither is so much of the game that my ability to suspend disbelief that is required for anything in the game to make sense applies naturally to this.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 23, 2021 16:36:31 GMT
I’m well aware of ludonarrative dissonance, and that a game needs to have certain mechanics in place in order to function without being needlessly frustrating. Things like art direction, however, are not in the same vein as game mechanics. To some degree, this science fiction story is trying to take itself at least a little seriously, and the way things are designed and presented is a part of that. If we were on Luna, and our companions used breather masks with exposed eyes, would this be something that’s just hunky-dory because “wElL wE dOnT dIe In 1 ShOt”? You can call it pedantic all you like, but that’s just silly. This argument might as well say “just turn your brain off you fucking nerd.” Art direction is the same level of deciding when a single bullet is lethal and when you can face tank so many that you could legally be considered 20% lead. These aren’t on the same level at all. The way weapons, abilities, perks, mods, armor etc. interact with health pools function entirely on a meta level. Your character’s numerical values don’t exist as an actual part of the universe. If that was the case, we’d never accept the idea that our character can take so many hits in a hazardous environment, but then a little splash can cause a character to die in a cutscene. There’s a basic understanding that these things cannot function as a 1:1 representation of real life, because there’s a point where fun and difficulty intersect, and the former plummets because the game becomes an unplayable simulator. This doesn’t apply to the aesthetic whatsoever. I guess that’s really what it comes down to. Because it’s a game, we automatically apply a lower standard to its aesthetic. If I thought it would look cool if we opened the windows of the Normandy to shoot at enemy ships without experiencing an explosive decompression, it doesn’t matter, because it’s a game. If this story were in any other medium, we’d never accept it. I don’t see why I should accept it here.
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Post by Radec on Mar 23, 2021 16:55:37 GMT
The game started ignoring physics long before that. The whole setup to Priority Earth is absolutely ridiculous. You've got a million ships coming though the relay and firing a billion mass accelerator rounds (each with the force of a nuclear weapon) at the Reapers sitting with their back to Earth. Hope literally none of them missed! Take back Earth? Shouldn't be anything left to take back. Honestly, though, this is a problem with the audience. It's not like Bio wasn't aware of the problems with launching an attack on a fleet over a garden world -- there's literally a Codex entry about this. The problem is that depicting the actual tactics necessary to avoid getting Earth into the fleet's firing solution would have made the cutscenes look weird to the dumbasses in the fanbase. There was a time when I thought the fanbase could be trusted with accurate depictions, but I've lost the faith. I'm not so sure of that. I think there were some people at Bio who were aware of problems like this (e.g. the one who wrote that entry) at least initially. It's simply that pretty much all of the more rules based hard scifi concepts they started with were gradually overruled by dumber "someone who got paid a lot more money than me" corporate types, as L'Etoile put it, pandering to lowest common denominator tropes because that's easier to write for and matched higher's preferences more anyway. AFAIK the fanbase at large never really asked for this and tended to overwhelmingly groan at the greater volume of obviously stupid nonsense that got added more and more as the series went on (e.g. breather masks, sexbots, cyborg ninjas, the endings). Of course, the fanbase at this point now largely reflects the product, so I agree with you there. I simply see it more as a top down directed progression towards this point, rather than a bottom up one.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Mar 23, 2021 16:57:48 GMT
Art direction is the same level of deciding when a single bullet is lethal and when you can face tank so many that you could legally be considered 20% lead. These aren’t on the same level at all. The way weapons, abilities, perks, mods, armor etc. interact with health pools function entirely on a meta level. Your character’s numerical values don’t exist as an actual part of the universe. If that was the case, we’d never accept the idea that our character can take so many hits in a hazardous environment, but then a little splash can cause a character to die in a cutscene. There’s a basic understanding that these things cannot function as a 1:1 representation of real life, because there’s a point where fun and difficulty intersect, and the former plummets because the game becomes an unplayable simulator. This doesn’t apply to the aesthetic whatsoever. I guess that’s really what it comes down to. Because it’s a game, we automatically apply a lower standard to its aesthetic. If I thought it would look cool if we opened the windows of the Normandy to shoot at enemy ships without experiencing an explosive decompression, it doesn’t matter, because it’s a game. If this story were in any other medium, we’d never accept it. I don’t see why I should accept it here.
You shouldn't, some people just can't understand compartmentalization of ideas.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Mar 23, 2021 18:24:28 GMT
If I thought it would look cool if we opened the windows of the Normandy to shoot at enemy ships without experiencing an explosive decompression, it doesn’t matter, because it’s a game That'd be some straight up gangsta shit, right there, bro. Outta fucking Compton. The alliance colony. Talkin'bout some fly by shootin' shit. In mothah fuckin' space, yo. Shit, I can even hear the San Andreas theme playing. Cruisin' the Terminus with your low ridin' Normandy, going pop pop pop, watching xenos drop, know what I'm sayin', ma' terran? You'd bet this game would sell like hotcakes.
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Post by wright1978 on Mar 23, 2021 18:50:59 GMT
I’m well aware of ludonarrative dissonance, and that a game needs to have certain mechanics in place in order to function without being needlessly frustrating. Things like art direction, however, are not in the same vein as game mechanics. To some degree, this science fiction story is trying to take itself at least a little seriously, and the way things are designed and presented is a part of that. If we were on Luna, and our companions used breather masks with exposed eyes, would this be something that’s just hunky-dory because “wElL wE dOnT dIe In 1 ShOt”? You can call it pedantic all you like, but that’s just silly. This argument might as well say “just turn your brain off you fucking nerd.” Art direction is the same level of deciding when a single bullet is lethal and when you can face tank so many that you could legally be considered 20% lead. I perfer the system introduced in ME2 were I can actually see the character models. That looks way better from a visual stand point then the hard suit armor of ME1. It isn't realistic but neither is so much of the game that my ability to suspend disbelief that is required for anything in the game to make sense applies naturally to this. Yeah I liked to be able to see characters too
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Post by colfoley on Mar 23, 2021 19:10:42 GMT
While this stuff should bother people pretty much all sci fi has weird hollywood pseudoscience or space magic. X-Wings and shuttle craft don't travel like that...try Vipers or Starfuries...but even then strike craft in sci fi don't make a lot of sense.
Does mass effect fields keeping air in make sense? No not really. Is it better they use actual helmets? Yes. But it also is kind of what it is. It bothers me when i think about it but in the grand scheme of things probably not that incongrous.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 23, 2021 19:26:35 GMT
While this stuff should bother people pretty much all sci fi has weird hollywood pseudoscience or space magic. X-Wings and shuttle craft don't travel like that...try Vipers or Starfuries...but even then strike craft in sci fi don't make a lot of sense. Does mass effect fields keeping air in make sense? No not really. Is it better they use actual helmets? Yes. But it also is kind of what it is. It bothers me when i think about it but in the grand scheme of things probably not that incongrous. Imagine your battery running out and suddenly that bubble of air immediately dissipates around your exposed head. Hilarity ensues.
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Post by Radec on Mar 23, 2021 20:17:03 GMT
While this stuff should bother people pretty much all sci fi has weird hollywood pseudoscience or space magic. X-Wings and shuttle craft don't travel like that...try Vipers or Starfuries...but even then strike craft in sci fi don't make a lot of sense. Does mass effect fields keeping air in make sense? No not really. Is it better they use actual helmets? Yes. But it also is kind of what it is. It bothers me when i think about it but in the grand scheme of things probably not that incongrous. Imagine your battery running out and suddenly that bubble of air immediately dissipates around your exposed head. Hilarity ensues. It wouldn't matter because your dumb ass already died from being frozen, boiled alive or any exposed areas bloating out and then exploding as the pressurized fluids in your body try to reach the low pressure zone that is the zero atmo around you (at least you'll probably be dead long before you explode). masseffect.fandom.com/wiki/Codex/Weapons,_Armor_and_Equipment#Kinetic_Barriers_.28.22Shields.22.29_2 The shielding afforded by kinetic barriers does not protect against extremes of temperature, toxins, or radiation.They just ignored this because Casey thought that was way cooler than lame spacesuits and didn't even bother lampshading it. The whole "it's all just a contrivance based on a magic rock" defense doesn't work to defend this shitty writing. You still have to follow the rules you established, or at least lampshade why they don't apply here. This applies to any rules based work of fiction not just science fiction. Aragorn can't pull out a red lightsaber and start flinging lightning bolts at Orcs because some shitty new writer thinks Star Wars is cool. He's in Middle Earth. But we lost this battle 10 years ago and now I gotta listen to an annoying robot tell me that -30c (not even all that cold by Earth standards) will freeze me to death in my hardsuit within a couple minutes while peepee in her purple belly button barney costume and plastic mouth covering is just fine.
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Post by Sanunes on Mar 23, 2021 20:40:03 GMT
I guess that’s really what it comes down to. Because it’s a game, we automatically apply a lower standard to its aesthetic. If I thought it would look cool if we opened the windows of the Normandy to shoot at enemy ships without experiencing an explosive decompression, it doesn’t matter, because it’s a game. If this story were in any other medium, we’d never accept it. I don’t see why I should accept it here. I have seen way too much in other media where its perfectly acceptable to have the same approach to this and people gladly take it. I think Justice League falls squarely into that situation. I have no interest in watching "The Snyder Cut", but from what I am told its pure rule of cool and a director just bashing toys together for a movie.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 23, 2021 20:42:04 GMT
The Andromeda helmet was poorly designed so that it could setup a death. That's because the Initiative decided to put safety at the bottom of the priority list. Then again that seems a common thing in the game.
Raise your eyes as far as you can. That's as far as what the glass/plastic part of the helmet needed to go. No reason for it to go all the way to the crown of the head. Look at today. All different jobs/careers that require the use of a helmet have it down close to eyebrow level. The only exception is astronauts, and deep sea divers. Might be others I'm forgetting.
As far as being able to see a characters face when they wear a helmet. Why? Does seeing their face mean/add something? As long as the helmet keeps the head protected and is sealed, it wouldn't bother me if I see their face or not.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 23, 2021 20:56:48 GMT
The Andromeda helmet was poorly designed so that it could setup a death. That's because the Initiative decided to put safety at the bottom of the priority list. Then again that seems a common thing in the game. Raise your eyes as far as you can. That's as far as what the glass/plastic part of the helmet needed to go. No reason for it to go all the way to the crown of the head. Look at today. All different jobs/careers that require the use of a helmet have it down close to eyebrow level. The only exception is astronauts, and deep sea divers. Might be others I'm forgetting. As far as being able to see a characters face when they wear a helmet. Why? Does seeing their face mean/add something? As long as the helmet keeps the head protected and is sealed, it wouldn't bother me if I see their face or not. The issue is more the material, whatever it is, than the design of the visor itself. We have materials made today that can withstand these impacts without breaking, and because they aren’t glass, they’re more likely going to split and crack before big chunks of it break off. The sort of impact that would actually cause that to happen would likely have just killed the wearer anyway.
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Post by The Elder King on Mar 23, 2021 21:01:14 GMT
The problem with the breather masks isn't just that they're not...lore friendly, to put it that way. It's that they're also visually unappealing, to put it mildly. Besides, a toggle options for helmets fix the issues for those that prefer to look at their characters.
Or, an even better solution would be to give some options in regards of the helmets/breathers for each squadmate. But given the scarcity of outfits and armours for squadmates in the series (and the absence of it in MEA), I never thought this approach was something Bioware seriously considered.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 23, 2021 21:04:01 GMT
The Andromeda helmet was poorly designed so that it could setup a death. That's because the Initiative decided to put safety at the bottom of the priority list. Then again that seems a common thing in the game. Raise your eyes as far as you can. That's as far as what the glass/plastic part of the helmet needed to go. No reason for it to go all the way to the crown of the head. Look at today. All different jobs/careers that require the use of a helmet have it down close to eyebrow level. The only exception is astronauts, and deep sea divers. Might be others I'm forgetting. As far as being able to see a characters face when they wear a helmet. Why? Does seeing their face mean/add something? As long as the helmet keeps the head protected and is sealed, it wouldn't bother me if I see their face or not. you know i just figured out why this post bothered me so much. Ashley. ME 3. Full helmet with metal and gets it cracked almost killing her.
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Glorious Star Lord
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KaiserShep
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 23, 2021 21:05:42 GMT
I guess that’s really what it comes down to. Because it’s a game, we automatically apply a lower standard to its aesthetic. If I thought it would look cool if we opened the windows of the Normandy to shoot at enemy ships without experiencing an explosive decompression, it doesn’t matter, because it’s a game. If this story were in any other medium, we’d never accept it. I don’t see why I should accept it here. I have seen way too much in other media where its perfectly acceptable to have the same approach to this and people gladly take it. I think Justice League falls squarely into that situation. I have no interest in watching "The Snyder Cut", but from what I am told its pure rule of cool and a director just bashing toys together for a movie. Yeah, but you can be sure that something, like, say, The Expanse, would be very careful in how it presents these things, because it operates under the pretense that much of this technology is supposed to be plausible. Even with the presence of the protomolecule, people won’t accept just being able to go out into the vacuum of space and comfortably walk around with something that exposes any part of their skin for an extended period of time. As someone who sat through all 4 hours of the Snyder Cut, I can tell you that Snyder does what he can to overindulge in that runtime. Rule of cool is part and parcel with superheroes, but its real issue is the writing. Man the dialogue is godawful lol
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