inherit
738
0
4,633
Link"Guess"ski
3,882
August 2016
linkenski
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
Linkenski
asblinkenski
Linkenski
|
Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 15, 2017 20:53:26 GMT
What if they're just ahead of their time and you're too stuck in your ways to see it? If only. I think a lot of us are open to new conventions. If you see a movie and it emotionally resonates regardless of your preconceived notions about the dos and donts of moviemaking, then it's hard to deny that it works. However, if you look far down enough into literature and see what it comes from and what the qualities are you'll probably see it more my way and agree that there are certain objective qualities and lack of qualities to some attempts at writing. I thoroughly disagree with the statement "People can tell stories how they want" as if to say that I can't call something out on being flawed because I didn't make it. I pretty much, albeit vaguely, described what I think bad writing is in most cases. It's writers being uneducated in what exactly they're doing when they write or at best try to imitate something they liked without really understanding where that thing they liked came from intellectually. The more merit writing has the better, and by merit I mean all things like historical value, drawing parallels, being critical or analytical of society - past, present, future - not being intrustive in however it presents its messaging. For example Deus Ex Mankind Divided and Heavy Rain have issues in the fact that they're very obviously about something but they fail to let their message be part of the subtext. Instead you'll see everyone going "origami killer this and that" in Heavy Rain and in Mankind Divided everyone you meet is either augmented or normal and their dialogue is laser-focused on addressing that fact to remind you "HEY THIS STORY IS ABOUT THE APARTHEID OF AGUMENTED AND HUMANS!" so there's no subtlety and you spend 20 hours being banged over your head with a theme you already get by the 5-minute mark of the introduction, and rarely if ever does the story subvert this understanding by presenting you with a third kind of person or agumented people that don't give a shit about their augs. That's perhaps a too specific example that doesn't generalize writing enough but you should get the point. Writing isn't infallible just because it's based on an author's subjective style or viewpoints. In fact viewpoint and subjectivity of author is almost certain to bleed into the craft everywhere. That's why narrative as I see it is a form of argument. It's an author presenting their ideas about their subject of choice (in Dragon Age there's religion for example) and they're saying something about it but in a more pleasant and entertaining way which you can overlook if you don't care about subtext and just want an adventure with dragons. That's why writing is art. It's layered. I've said enough, hopefully you get what I mean in that opinions can't be faulted, cuz writing incorporates opinion at every turn.
|
|
saberchic
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Prime Posts: 3012
Prime Likes: 618
Posts: 653 Likes: 1,582
inherit
364
0
Sept 6, 2020 23:15:15 GMT
1,582
saberchic
653
August 2016
saberchic
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
3012
618
|
Post by saberchic on Feb 16, 2017 0:35:44 GMT
I think a lot of us are open to new conventions. If you see a movie and it emotionally resonates regardless of your preconceived notions about the dos and donts of moviemaking, then it's hard to deny that it works. However, if you look far down enough into literature and see what it comes from and what the qualities are you'll probably see it more my way and agree that there are certain objective qualities and lack of qualities to some attempts at writing. I thoroughly disagree with the statement "People can tell stories how they want" as if to say that I can't call something out on being flawed because I didn't make it. I pretty much, albeit vaguely, described what I think bad writing is in most cases. It's writers being uneducated in what exactly they're doing when they write or at best try to imitate something they liked without really understanding where that thing they liked came from intellectually. The more merit writing has the better, and by merit I mean all things like historical value, drawing parallels, being critical or analytical of society - past, present, future - not being intrustive in however it presents its messaging. For example Deus Ex Mankind Divided and Heavy Rain have issues in the fact that they're very obviously about something but they fail to let their message be part of the subtext. Instead you'll see everyone going "origami killer this and that" in Heavy Rain and in Mankind Divided everyone you meet is either augmented or normal and their dialogue is laser-focused on addressing that fact to remind you "HEY THIS STORY IS ABOUT THE APARTHEID OF AGUMENTED AND HUMANS!" so there's no subtlety and you spend 20 hours being banged over your head with a theme you already get by the 5-minute mark of the introduction, and rarely if ever does the story subvert this understanding by presenting you with a third kind of person or agumented people that don't give a shit about their augs. That's perhaps a too specific example that doesn't generalize writing enough but you should get the point. Writing isn't infallible just because it's based on an author's subjective style or viewpoints. In fact viewpoint and subjectivity of author is almost certain to bleed into the craft everywhere. That's why narrative as I see it is a form of argument. It's an author presenting their ideas about their subject of choice (in Dragon Age there's religion for example) and they're saying something about it but in a more pleasant and entertaining way which you can overlook if you don't care about subtext and just want an adventure with dragons. That's why writing is art. It's layered. I've said enough, hopefully you get what I mean in that opinions can't be faulted, cuz writing incorporates opinion at every turn. I'm not stuck in any one way of thinking (or formula) when it comes to writing. We see many different viewpoints and styles in novels and games that are different and good. However, when not a lot of thought (or logic) goes into it, I would say that there can definitely be objectively bad writing--despite it not conforming to the norm. Bad writing--in terms of games--tends to have giant plot holes, illogical leaps in arguments, shallow characters who end up being stereotypes instead of fleshed out people, etc. It doesn't matter if they don't follow a cookie cutter formula for a game arc. I definitely agree with you that writing is complex, but that does not mean that it can't be faulty. It may be one person's perspective, but as I mentioned above, if it has lapses in logic, then their "argument" can definitely be labeled as such.
|
|
jpcab
N2
Posts: 191 Likes: 111
inherit
3524
0
Jun 24, 2021 22:52:47 GMT
111
jpcab
191
Feb 12, 2017 15:47:39 GMT
February 2017
jpcab
|
Post by jpcab on Mar 19, 2017 21:55:10 GMT
So...my fears about being more childish...what you think after this 10 hours? the complexity of the story..the emotions..the characters...you think it will grow within the game or...its that bad. By the way the old saves of the trilogy have no meaning in Andromeda?
|
|
fatherjerusalem
N2
I used to think that I was cynical and a pessimist. Then I found the BSN.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: fatherjerusalem
Posts: 239 Likes: 980
inherit
1868
0
980
fatherjerusalem
I used to think that I was cynical and a pessimist. Then I found the BSN.
239
Oct 27, 2016 19:28:35 GMT
October 2016
fatherjerusalem
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
fatherjerusalem
|
Post by fatherjerusalem on Mar 19, 2017 22:18:37 GMT
I'd much rather have it be quippy and colorful like a Marvel movie than pointlessly dreary and grimdark like a DC movie, frankly.
|
|
inherit
4007
0
Member is Online
Nov 28, 2024 22:43:54 GMT
3,862
kotoreffect3
1,758
March 2017
kotoreffect3
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by kotoreffect3 on Mar 19, 2017 22:26:07 GMT
Depends how you define "childish". It won't be as dark as the original trilogy.
|
|
Sahl
N1
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 22 Likes: 10
inherit
4494
0
Mar 19, 2017 22:47:53 GMT
10
Sahl
22
Mar 14, 2017 11:12:54 GMT
March 2017
sahl
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Sahl on Mar 19, 2017 22:27:54 GMT
i really hope not, but when i saw the twins and the Asari with the "Zorro" mask i felt a bit disappointed . They re kids. Do not really look soldiers. I was expecting more mature characters on the Shepard line. Before I go dark (I will not return the next 4 weeks atleast) I just want to comment on why its more "teen" friendly and why the setting is different As I wrote in a few of the other threads, this has to do with trends and marked. The major publishers (like EA) has their target audience in teens that play on console, not adults, nor PC users. This is why Bioware games has gone from, dark, mature, RPG's with advanced systems/combat/choices, to fast paced action with no consequnces. EA wants to be able to sell mass effect to their target audience (teens on console) they can't do that with the above. I mean did you see or hear how teens/console users hated the first DA IE... They loved the the rest... now figure out why.. I work in the educational sector and when I hear teens talk about games like mass effect, they don't talk about lore, story or choices.. They talk about the fast paced action... There is a trend going on and its not going to stop with all the new age gamers. The only hope for us older gamers, is that Bioware and other larger devs/pubs keep adding story and other rpg features in along with the simplistic gameplay and instant glorification.. If we want real games, we have to crowdfund now a days. Thats just the reality. The majority decides what games come to the marked and the majority wants fast paced action and shiny gfx over gameplay/story mechanics.. sadly
|
|
SilJeff
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
XBL Gamertag: SilJeff
PSN: Sonic10158
Posts: 101 Likes: 166
inherit
1795
0
Sept 18, 2022 18:27:43 GMT
166
SilJeff
101
October 2016
siljeff
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
SilJeff
Sonic10158
|
Post by SilJeff on Mar 19, 2017 22:43:22 GMT
All I know is, I hope it is more Captain America: Civil War (serious with light-hearted moments) and less Batman V Superman (depressingly serious with zero light-hearted moments). At the same time, I of course am not wanting a Batman & Robin lack of serious
I am looking forward to seeing a Mass Effect story without the Reapers sniffing down our shoulders.
|
|
II So Close II
N1
I used to be a space adventurer like you, but then I took a Krysae sniper rifle shot to the knee.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: II So Close II
Posts: 36 Likes: 37
inherit
5059
0
37
II So Close II
I used to be a space adventurer like you, but then I took a Krysae sniper rifle shot to the knee.
36
Mar 19, 2017 13:30:02 GMT
March 2017
soclose
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
II So Close II
|
Post by II So Close II on Mar 19, 2017 22:44:00 GMT
So...my fears about being more childish...what you think after this 10 hours? the complexity of the story..the emotions..the characters...you think it will grow within the game or...its that bad. By the way the old saves of the trilogy have no meaning in Andromeda? Well.. The original trilogy was rated M (18+). The new, according to the trailer anyway, is rated 16. That's not a promising sign. However, only ten hours in, it's really way too early to say. What I'm somewhat concerned about though, regarding the story in particular, is that it feels a bit lowest common denominator, if you know what I mean. It is, so far anyway, Michael Bay writing rather than Michael Mann writing. Which is completely wrong for a game such as this, in my opinion. Old saves have no impact, as far as I can tell. The only thing you can decide is whether Shep was male or female, that looks to be it. Which is unfortunate given that the female Krogan whose name escapes me says the genophage wasn't cured, even though it was in many a playthrough (including mine).
|
|
Arcian
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: GVArcian
XBL Gamertag: GVArcian
Prime Posts: 2473
Prime Likes: 2168
Posts: 928 Likes: 1,354
inherit
174
0
Nov 13, 2024 12:36:41 GMT
1,354
Arcian
928
August 2016
arcian
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
GVArcian
GVArcian
2473
2168
|
Post by Arcian on Mar 19, 2017 22:47:13 GMT
i really hope not, but when i saw the twins and the Asari with the "Zorro" mask i felt a bit disappointed . They re kids. Do not really look soldiers. I was expecting more mature characters on the Shepard line. I've read the spoilers and it's a million times more childish than you could imagine. The romance dialogue reads like bad tween fanfiction.
|
|
SilJeff
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
XBL Gamertag: SilJeff
PSN: Sonic10158
Posts: 101 Likes: 166
inherit
1795
0
Sept 18, 2022 18:27:43 GMT
166
SilJeff
101
October 2016
siljeff
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
SilJeff
Sonic10158
|
Post by SilJeff on Mar 19, 2017 22:56:19 GMT
So...my fears about being more childish...what you think after this 10 hours? the complexity of the story..the emotions..the characters...you think it will grow within the game or...its that bad. By the way the old saves of the trilogy have no meaning in Andromeda? Well.. The original trilogy was rated M (18+). The new, according to the trailer anyway, is rated 16. That's not a promising sign. However, only ten hours in, it's really way too early to say. What I'm somewhat concerned about though, regarding the story in particular, is that it feels a bit lowest common denominator, if you know what I mean. It is, so far anyway, Michael Bay writing rather than Michael Mann writing. Which is completely wrong for a game such as this, in my opinion. Old saves have no impact, as far as I can tell. The only thing you can decide is whether Shep was male or female, that looks to be it. Which is unfortunate given that the female Krogan whose name escapes me says the genophage wasn't cured, even though it was in many a playthrough (including mine). The Genophage isn't cured for them because the Arks left before the events of 3. They weren't there for the Genophage to be cured for them.
|
|
II So Close II
N1
I used to be a space adventurer like you, but then I took a Krysae sniper rifle shot to the knee.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: II So Close II
Posts: 36 Likes: 37
inherit
5059
0
37
II So Close II
I used to be a space adventurer like you, but then I took a Krysae sniper rifle shot to the knee.
36
Mar 19, 2017 13:30:02 GMT
March 2017
soclose
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
II So Close II
|
Post by II So Close II on Mar 19, 2017 23:01:39 GMT
Well.. The original trilogy was rated M (18+). The new, according to the trailer anyway, is rated 16. That's not a promising sign. However, only ten hours in, it's really way too early to say. What I'm somewhat concerned about though, regarding the story in particular, is that it feels a bit lowest common denominator, if you know what I mean. It is, so far anyway, Michael Bay writing rather than Michael Mann writing. Which is completely wrong for a game such as this, in my opinion. Old saves have no impact, as far as I can tell. The only thing you can decide is whether Shep was male or female, that looks to be it. Which is unfortunate given that the female Krogan whose name escapes me says the genophage wasn't cured, even though it was in many a playthrough (including mine). The Genophage isn't cured for them because the Arks left before the events of 3. They weren't there for the Genophage to be cured for them. That may be true (2185 vs 2186). Which makes the origin story of the arks somewhat shallow, come to think of it. But you are probably right.
|
|
inherit
3439
0
9,686
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
8,066
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on Mar 19, 2017 23:14:26 GMT
As I wrote in a few of the other threads, this has to do with trends and marked. The major publishers (like EA) has their target audience in teens that play on console, not adults, nor PC users. This is why Bioware games has gone from, dark, mature, RPG's with advanced systems/combat/choices, to fast paced action with no consequnces. You got a source for that demographic data?
|
|
inherit
3439
0
9,686
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
8,066
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on Mar 19, 2017 23:19:01 GMT
The Genophage isn't cured for them because the Arks left before the events of 3. They weren't there for the Genophage to be cured for them. That may be true (2185 vs 2186). Which makes the origin story of the arks somewhat shallow, come to think of it. But you are probably right. Probably? Dude, we see the Hyperion leaving Earth. Did you see Reapers?
|
|