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Post by Cypher on Mar 6, 2017 3:35:06 GMT
Best thing about Inquisition. If I need to go back to an area or if I'm able to go back to an area, I want there to still be things to kill. I play RPGs since I was born the only possible way that is to play for me: I go, clear an area, never go back to it for anything, ever. Ok, so some games forces me to go back and forth (and this is completely retarded, companies must understand games are awful, playing them is PAIN, not enjoyment, and thus you don't want to revisit anything at all, you just want to get done with the shit and never look back), so when these games force me to go back to an area I just want to be done with it fast, like Waly West fused with Eobard Thawne and Marvel's Runner fast. The last thing I want is the AWFUL game forcing me to whistand that awful gameplay more and more. Of course it does not apply with perfect games like NWN2, Tyranny and PoE (all Obsidian), in those games I would play a trillion combats per quare meter on each map, but when the game is like Inquisition, it is torture upon torture, it is worse than getting impaled by a Trident with acid and flames for infinite eternities while being regenerated by magic and keeping your pain receptors to their maximun sensitivity. And as someone who came up on JRPGs, going back to early locations and steamrolling everyone is always fun. Besides, shooter gameplay changes everything.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 6, 2017 4:00:36 GMT
I play RPGs since I was born the only possible way that is to play for me: I go, clear an area, never go back to it for anything, ever. Ok, so some games forces me to go back and forth (and this is completely retarded, companies must understand games are awful, playing them is PAIN, not enjoyment, and thus you don't want to revisit anything at all, you just want to get done with the shit and never look back), Wait, what?
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Post by ATR16 on Mar 6, 2017 4:10:43 GMT
I'd take DAO combat over DAI any day of the week. Same with DA2. DAI to me was the worst in the franchise by far. FF15 is a bit of its own animal. That game went through dev hell and the guy who finally took charge to get it done had a Duke Nukem style job of stitching a zillion things together to make a final game. And they did a pretty damn good job on FF all things considered, especially when you compare it to Lightning Returns. Hmmm... so you take into the picture the developmental hurdles of FF15... yet you seem to ignore the developmental hurdles of DAI - the first-ever RPG created on Frostbite that was also created for 5 platforms, 2 of which held the game back to a point that some features had to be cut from the final product. (also - I personally prefer DAI combat to DAO one) FF15 didn't promise me a million things, and give me something different.
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Post by ilsen on Mar 6, 2017 4:12:42 GMT
I didn't try the previous MEs because I'm not really into space or even modern day games. But if it's DAI in space, then i guess I have to try it because DAI ruled. Thanks for the heads up.
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Post by midnight tea on Mar 6, 2017 4:49:16 GMT
Hmmm... so you take into the picture the developmental hurdles of FF15... yet you seem to ignore the developmental hurdles of DAI - the first-ever RPG created on Frostbite that was also created for 5 platforms, 2 of which held the game back to a point that some features had to be cut from the final product. (also - I personally prefer DAI combat to DAO one) FF15 didn't promise me a million things, and give me something different. Neither did DAI. And a gratuitous use of hyperbole won't really help your argument.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2017 16:07:41 GMT
Actually, where I really do not want to see the semblance to the Inquisition, is the abrupt setting change. DA:I feels like it happens oh, about 700-900 years after DA:O. Wait, Andromeda actually does take place 600 years after MET. In a different Galaxy!
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 6, 2017 16:09:51 GMT
Huh?
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Post by vallixas on Mar 6, 2017 16:59:45 GMT
Biotics look amazing in Andromeda I must say. Seems like biotics are awesome again which they haven't been since Mass Effect 1. What DAI did to mages was absolutely terrible. Especially Necromancer, instead of using demons and spirits to terrify the battlefield we got......wisp dots that pew pew lol.
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Post by Psychevore on Mar 6, 2017 18:05:58 GMT
Some people have never gotten over Baldur's Gate. That's what happened, ages ago, and we still suffer from it.
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Post by cloud9 on Mar 7, 2017 9:21:47 GMT
- Fetch quests, literally 98% in the game are fetch quest. This is not even so much the problem because all rpgs have them. However in DAI they were all uninspired. "Go fetch my husbands ring templars stole it* *walks a few feet gets ring* "You found my ring, kthanxbai" *mission complete*. That's lazy, there's no other word for it. - Locations that were pretty but otherwise empty - Terrible combat (worst in the DA franchise). Played like an MMO. No matter what class you played. This was made worse by the fact almost all of the classes were broken. - Shallow characters, with shallow banter revolving around sexual acts, looks or fashion or otherwise engaging in petty highschool arguements (looking at you Dorian/Viv). With the exception of characters like Solas or Cassandra. Can't forget Varric, I probably wouldn't have played the game for as long as I did if not for him. - Subpar main story and cookie cutter villain. - True ending released as dlc. - Poor balancing, especially when it comes to difficulty. It seems the idea to make the game harder was to turn archers into tanks and give mages god tier barriers. Nightmare mode was actually more of a chore than a challenge. If you were say a reaver, it just meant spamming the same dragon rage button for longer just to kill 1 mage/archer. - Terrible AI. While many games have bad AI few are as frustrating as DAIs. Ranged characters who charge tanks. I once spent around 15 minutes closing a fade rift because those frost demons actually hopped outside of the vacinity and had I followed, it would have reset the fade rift lol. Closing fade rifts just became a game of waiting because of those demons. I'd usually just stand at the rift and press X repeatedly to disrupt the thing until the squad could kill the demon. To this day I only went through the story once, a first for a Bioware game. I installed Trespasser but never actually got around to playing the game to that point. It got to a point where I just couldn't tolerate the combat. By the time of Trespasser better games were also out. Also winning a few awards doesn't mean much. If I remember correctly DAI didn't have much competition around the time it came out. It was a bit of a dry spell for wrpgs then. Fallout 4 wasn't even out yet, neither was Witcher 3. Still I don't think it was that successful, it was nowhere to be seen in NPDs top 10 sales literally 2 months after it came out, strange for a game that launched on around 5 platforms, and EA never disclosed it's sales which is very telling. That's the same way I feel about Inquisition and Skyrim still has an edge over the game.
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Post by midnight tea on Mar 7, 2017 15:23:23 GMT
To this day I only went through the story once, a first for a Bioware game. I installed Trespasser but never actually got around to playing the game to that point. It got to a point where I just couldn't tolerate the combat. By the time of Trespasser better games were also out. Also winning a few awards doesn't mean much. If I remember correctly DAI didn't have much competition around the time it came out. It was a bit of a dry spell for wrpgs then. Fallout 4 wasn't even out yet, neither was Witcher 3. Still I don't think it was that successful, it was nowhere to be seen in NPDs top 10 sales literally 2 months after it came out, strange for a game that launched on around 5 platforms, and EA never disclosed it's sales which is very telling. I'll go back to this, because all I see is a deceptive use of NPD top sales. You say that Inquisition came out at a time of wRPG dry spell at 2014 - but let's take it's closest "rival" and make a few comparisons. Witcher 3 was launched in May; which was a bit of a 'dry spell' when it comes to prominent game releases at that time of the year. In fact, aside from TW3, there NO game released in May 2015 with such fanfare (and I don't just mean RPGs), with only Arkham Knight being a big blip on radar in June 2015 - and that one was was mired in a scandal with poor PC port. Hence TW3 dominated the charts in May - t hen it fell to 4th place in June and fell off the list in July. Needless to say it didn't appear on closing 2015 list. Obviously I'm not ever comparing numbers for Witcher or DAI to Fallout 4 - Bethesda has an edge over both studios and their titles will simply sell better (just like it's obvious that ME titles will sell better than DA ones from BW itself; ME simply has a bigger player base). Heck, ESO: Tamriel Unlimited - a re-release of 2014 MMO title that is technically NOT from Bethesda proper - was on 2nd place in June NPD list compared to Witcher's 4th. And Inquisition was a November release - when November and December have been two most important months for sales in the video game industry for a while now; a time when many industry moguls flood the market with their fastest-selling titles, which at 2014 included COD and Far Cry 4. It's disingenuous then to pull out monthly NPD lists in order to prove a point, while not taking all the factors into consideration. So whether some people liked it or not, Inquisition had successes in its own right. It didn't win "a few" awards - it won over 150. Also, whether EA discloses its sales or not, every information from EA we can get tells us that they're really happy with DAI's performance. That doesn't mean you have to like the game - just don't try and prove that it didn't perform as good as it did, just because YOU didn't like it. I myself am not a big fan of first Avengers movie, there were things in it that didn't resonate will with me, but I won't be going around trying to prove it was a bad movie, even less so that it hadn't had a tremendous box-office success based on a selective read of monthly sales lists or whatever...
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Post by goishen on Mar 7, 2017 15:46:57 GMT
Look.
All I'll say is that about 15-30% of the population that played DAI could not play a melee class for shit. Myself included. Why the range in numbers? Because I don't have hard stats on who could or could not play a melee class.
That might be okay in MEA. Might not be. Add to this that in ME3, you had the over the counter grab. Where you were in cover, someone came up to the other side of that cover and they got put down. There was no question about who it was, there was no question about why they were there, there was no question about if it was fair. They got put down. Conversely, the mobs had sync kills. The same rules applied.
Also, add in the crafting system. If you take a look at both games' crafting systems, and don't walk away saying that they are in fact at least similar (at the very least), I dunno what to say to you.
Add in the AVC table, or the table where you wake people up. It's exactly Inquisition Perks pulled right off'a the shelf.
Leliana - Scientists Cullen - Military Josephine - Traders
Add to this the WoW-ification of the game as a whole. They are gonna ! as indicators and have strike team missions which'll take real time, which is another way that MEA is like DAI. It's hard to know who came up with that system first, Blizzard or BioWare.
I'm not saying that I'm not gonna buy the game. I'm just massively disappointed.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 7, 2017 16:14:04 GMT
Look. All I'll say is that about 15-30% of the population that played DAI could not play a melee class for shit. Myself included. Why the range in numbers? Because I don't have hard stats on who could or could not play a melee class. Going a bit OT, but what was your problem? I'm not all that great with DAI melee characters myself, but that's because my way-below-min-spec rig has wildly oscillating frame rates.Anyway, it's OK to occasionally miss with a swing, assuming basic competence in other areas of gameplay. Dragon Age never had that kind of ruleset symmetry. It's a respectable argument, but DAI is a bit late to be making it. ME has a related problem with Shepard being awesome, which got worse as the series went on and looks to be persisting in ME:A, regrettably. I'd prefer running that timer by in-game missions completed myself. OTOH, I'm not sure my preferred approach wouldn't annoy even more players than the RT clock does.
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Post by goishen on Mar 7, 2017 16:31:44 GMT
Going a bit OT, but what was your problem? I'm not all that great with DAI melee characters myself, but that's because my way-below-min-spec rig has wildly oscillating frame rates.Anyway, it's OK to occasionally miss wDragon Age never had that kind of ruleset symmetry. It's a respectable argument, but DAI is a bit late to be making it. ME has a related problem with Shepard being awesome, which got worse as the series went on and looms to be persisting in ME:A, regrettably. I'd prefer running that timer by in-game missions completed myself. OTOH, I'm not sure my preferred approach wouldn't annoy even more players than the RT clock does. Look, I'm not stating that the game isn't for everybody or in fact that the game isn't for me. I'll have to wait and see once the game comes out. For me, it was coordination. If you wanna laugh and point at me, that's fine. I was simply not coordinated enough. I simply could not coordinate being in the rough of battle and releasing the left click on my mouse without batting 1000 of air and gnats. And real timer doesn't really do anything, but annoy the piss outta me. Say that you had Josephine going on a 30 minute mission, Leliana going on a 3 hour mission, and Cullen going on a 4 hour mission. That would mean that if I were going to explore a brand new zone that Josephine's people would be stuck there at Skyhold for however long I was gonna play. Unless, I completely ruined my immersion by coming out of the zone, going back to Skyhold, and sending her out again. It's useless busy work. It feels more like I'm playing a facebook game than I am playing a AAA title. Add to this : Say what you will, but he's correct. Half to three quarter of those enemies shown aren't even shooting back.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 7, 2017 17:14:43 GMT
What's your alternative for the WT missions? Everything completes after the player does one quest?
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Post by Psychevore on Mar 7, 2017 17:34:04 GMT
I play RPGs since I was born the only possible way that is to play for me: I go, clear an area, never go back to it for anything, ever. Ok, so some games forces me to go back and forth (and this is completely retarded, companies must understand games are awful, playing them is PAIN, not enjoyment, and thus you don't want to revisit anything at all, you just want to get done with the shit and never look back), so when these games force me to go back to an area I just want to be done with it fast, like Waly West fused with Eobard Thawne and Marvel's Runner fast. The last thing I want is the AWFUL game forcing me to whistand that awful gameplay more and more. Of course it does not apply with perfect games like NWN2, Tyranny and PoE (all Obsidian), in those games I would play a trillion combats per quare meter on each map, but when the game is like Inquisition, it is torture upon torture, it is worse than getting impaled by a Trident with acid and flames for infinite eternities while being regenerated by magic and keeping your pain receptors to their maximun sensitivity. And as someone who came up on JRPGs, going back to early locations and steamrolling everyone is always fun. Besides, shooter gameplay changes everything. JRPGs are kinda the reason why I think vastly overleveling is part of playing an RPG.
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Post by Psychevore on Mar 7, 2017 17:39:02 GMT
All I'll say is that about 15-30% of the population that played DAI could not play a melee class for shit. Myself included. Why the range in numbers? Because I don't have hard stats on who could or could not play a melee class. Well that's just way too bad for them, because melee classes were so much fun to play. Good timing on your shield wall, really nice distance covering skills (both you getting to the enemy as well as the enemy getting to you) and by far the most active engagement of all classes.
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Post by goishen on Mar 7, 2017 17:57:48 GMT
Sounds more like a broken game than a fully round robin experience to me if 15-30% of people can't play half of your game.
But whatever.
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Post by Gileadan on Mar 7, 2017 17:58:40 GMT
Going a bit OT, but what was your problem? I'm not all that great with DAI melee characters myself, but that's because my way-below-min-spec rig has wildly oscillating frame rates.Anyway, it's OK to occasionally miss with a swing, assuming basic competence in other areas of gameplay. I know you didn't ask me, and this is mostly a theory, but one I feel fairly confident about because none of my tests have shown anything to the contrary. The problem with DAI's melee combat is how hitboxes are implemented on nonhuman creatures. You'll probably remember that some creatures had multiple hit point bars - like dragons having one for each limb, dragonlings just had three of them scattered along their snake-like body, yet each of these hit point bars was linked to the same health pool. My theory is this: no matter what creature, each hitbox is actually the size of a human. When fighting in melee, imagine an invisible human target under each hit point bar, and you'll have a much easier time hitting it. If you just aim for the creature's model instead (something most players would do naturally), you'll possibly have a terrible time fighting with short ranged melee attacks like a dual dagger rogue or a sword and board warrior - two handed warriors have a bit less trouble because some of their attacks are longer ranged and/or have an AOE effect. How to test this: play a melee rogue - Cole is fine for this - and find yourself a great bear. Normal bears may work (and also, normal bears find you all the time), but great bears are so large that the effect becomes obvious. Great bears have a single hit point bar, so there is only a single human sized hitbox in the middle of their body. Use Cole to attack the bear from the front while it's on all four and try to strike it. You won't hit, because the big model prevents you from reaching the hitbox further back in the body. The distance between the bear's head - where Cole will be standing - to the hitbox is so large that his swings can never connect. Depending on how you play, you may notice that Cole will have the tendency to try and run to the bear's side. That's because the AI is trying to reach the hitbox in the middle of the bear's body. Run to the bear's flank and attack - and you'll hit because you'll be close enough. Ranged characters have no such difficulties because almost all their attacks act like homing missiles that pass through the model to the hitbox. Needless to say, that is a terrible and clunky way to implement melee combat... but once you understand how it works, you can kinda compensate for it. Still, it can make for some awful gameplay.
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Post by Thalandor on Mar 7, 2017 18:00:10 GMT
I played melee (rogue), and it only got Okay when I learned to play around the various quirks. The worst of them was the god damn camera, that thing was all over the place, especially when locked on enemies. Worst in indoor areas. Then there was that problem where my own melee allies would block my way and it could get hard to navigate the battle to get in weapon range, and then I'd lose my lock. Also, the controller layout... I won't go into that. That was all in "action" mode mind you, I tried "tactical" for a bit, but couldn't see myself playing that way in 2017.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 7, 2017 18:10:24 GMT
Going a bit OT, but what was your problem? I'm not all that great with DAI melee characters myself, but that's because my way-below-min-spec rig has wildly oscillating frame rates.Anyway, it's OK to occasionally miss with a swing, assuming basic competence in other areas of gameplay. I know you didn't ask me, and this is mostly a theory, but one I feel fairly confident about because none of my tests have shown anything to the contrary. The problem with DAI's melee combat is how hitboxes are implemented on nonhuman creatures. You'll probably remember that some creatures had multiple hit point bars - like dragons having one for each limb, dragonlings just had three of them scattered along their snake-like body, yet each of these hit point bars was linked to the same health pool. My theory is this: no matter what creature, each hitbox is actually the size of a human. When fighting in melee, imagine an invisible human target under each hit point bar, and you'll have a much easier time hitting it. If you just aim for the creature's model instead (something most players would do naturally), you'll possibly have a terrible time fighting with short ranged melee attacks like a dual dagger rogue or a sword and board warrior - two handed warriors have a bit less trouble because some of their attacks are longer ranged and/or have an AOE effect. How to test this: play a melee rogue - Cole is fine for this - and find yourself a great bear. Normal bears may work (and also, normal bears find you all the time), but great bears are so large that the effect becomes obvious. Great bears have a single hit point bar, so there is only a single human sized hitbox in the middle of their body. Use Cole to attack the bear from the front while it's on all four and try to strike it. You won't hit, because the big model prevents you from reaching the hitbox further back in the body. The distance between the bear's head - where Cole will be standing - to the hitbox is so large that his swings can never connect. Depending on how you play, you may notice that Cole will have the tendency to try and run to the bear's side. That's because the AI is trying to reach the hitbox in the middle of the bear's body. Run to the bear's flank and attack - and you'll hit because you'll be close enough. Ranged characters have no such difficulties because almost all their attacks act like homing missiles that pass through the model to the hitbox. Needless to say, that is a terrible and clunky way to implement melee combat... but once you understand how it works, you can kinda compensate for it. Still, it can make for some awful gameplay. Interesting analysis. Thanks. Note that most melee rogues would try to be flanking anyway, though (unless you're using that weird Trespasser item and tanking). S&B Warriors would likely have the most problems. Come to think of it, my first melee character was S&B. I thought I got better since then, but maybe that wasn't it.
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Post by Gileadan on Mar 7, 2017 18:21:35 GMT
Interesting analysis. Thanks. Note that most melee rogues would try to be flanking anyway, though (unless you're using that weird Trespasser item and tanking). S&B Warriors would likely have the most problems. Come to think of it, my first melee character was S&B. I thought I got better since then, but maybe that wasn't it. Agreed. I played a 2H warrior, so I was mostly okay, and I only noticed this when my character was lying facedown in the dirt and I switched to Cole to stab a bear in the rear and had real trouble with that. Then I got curious and tried a few things, and found the game easier once I went for the HP bars. AI companions likely have no trouble anyway since the AI aims straight for the hitbox. Never tried s&b warrior myself. Cassie was almost unkillable in that role anyway.
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Post by goishen on Mar 7, 2017 19:15:21 GMT
The only time I could play a S&B warrior was actually with Cass. And that was on a dragon when everybody else was dead. Holding aggro? Pffft. Couldn't do it if you paid me a million dollars. Plus Cass + S&B was just simply a beast to take down.
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Post by vallixas on Mar 7, 2017 19:36:04 GMT
Two games that came out years apart are not rivals. I never said it wasn't successful. I said I didn't think it was THAT successful, and it wasn't for a game that released on 5 different platforms. 2 of which had a massive install base (PS3/360). People use that one article saying it was the most successful launch to mean it was Bioware's most successful title which is deceptive, the sales (atleast the ones we can estimate) do not show such a thing. Not even the PS4 version (the top selling DAI version) managed to outsell the PS3 version of Origins according to VG. I don't know why you're repeating the awards stuff, most of those "awards" consist of video game websites giving it a title. A lot of which were websites that weren't even solely video game oriented. It's fairly easy to nab such titles when you're one of the only big games to come out in that timeframe. Witcher 3 on the other hand had Fallout 4 to compete with. Both outsold Inquisition on just 3 platforms and attained more awards.
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ATR16
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
Origin: ATR16
XBL Gamertag: pydsie31
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Jade Empire
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Post by ATR16 on Mar 7, 2017 19:46:20 GMT
Two games that came out years apart are not rivals. I never said it wasn't successful. I said I didn't think it was THAT successful, and it wasn't for a game that released on 5 different platforms. 2 of which had a massive install base (PS3/360). People use that one article saying it was the most successful launch to mean it was Bioware's most successful title which is deceptive, the sales (atleast the ones we can estimate) do not how such a thing. Not even the PS4 version (the top selling DAI version) managed to outsell the PS3 version of Origins according to VG. I don't know why you're repeating the awards stuff, most of those "awards"consist of video game websites giving it a title. A lot of which were websites that weren't even solely video game oriented. It's fairly easy to nab such titles when you're one of the only big games to come out in that timeframe. Witcher 3 on the other hand had Fallout 4 to compete with. Both outsold Inquisition on just 3 platforms. It was also a pretty weak year for game releases. DAI only had competition in Shadow of Mordor, Bayonetta 2 and Dark Souls 2. No one played Bayo 2, Shadow of Mordor lacked the scale and story to win much, and DS2 is too hard for reviewers because it takes patience and skill.
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