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Post by uberlurker on Mar 8, 2017 20:49:58 GMT
LOLwut? I don't think you read my post right. That wasn't what I was saying at all. You were saying "show dont' tell" as if Inquisition doesn't do a lot of showing. Yes, but it gets bogged own with walls and walls of text nonsense. You might not find it superfluous but most people do, especially the war table missions which are 90% pointless busywork.
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Post by Kabraxal on Mar 8, 2017 21:08:38 GMT
You were saying "show dont' tell" as if Inquisition doesn't do a lot of showing. Yes, but it gets bogged own with walls and walls of text nonsense. You might not find it superfluous but most people do, especially the war table missions which are 90% pointless busywork. You do realize the war table is how leaders of huge organisations would handle delegation... right?
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Post by midnight tea on Mar 8, 2017 22:13:14 GMT
It means people don't actually read stuff like codeces, journal entries and important game writings that may expand the lore/story. Most oh Inquisition haters did not bother to read war table missions that actually enchance roleplaying, landmark codeces and journal entries. I'm not playing a 70 hours RPG just to read a bunch of long-ass wall of text that has little to no relevance to what my Inquisitor is supposed to be doing. Sorry. I, and many others who played the game, don't care about some huge lore dump of some Avvar war chief that you randomly stumble across when exploring. As the saying goes, "Show, don't tell". *sigh* ...Nowadays people tend to throw around "show don't tell" without understanding what it means, same way they throw around "mary sue" without really understanding what it means. In reality "show don't tell" applies to both written AND spoken AND visual medium - the very same rule is as important to literature with no pictures involved, as is to pictures with no words used. So a written codex entry in a form of a journal/book page or a war table mission (and the war table itself) is actually more "show don't tell" than, say, an NPC pointing directly at something and explaining what the objective is, ergo: telling us what is happening and what to do, rather than showing it through clever narrative tricks. "Show don't tell" pertains HOW exposition is being done - not what medium (visual, written, spoken) is used. And in that regard no - Inquisition doesn't have 'long-ass walls of text that have little to no relevance to what Inquisitor is supposed to be doing". If you claim so, it means you either didn't read many of them, or don't understand that not every piece of codex we find is there to be about the exact mission we're on, but expands on the lore of provides us with details about the world or hints and clues leading towards a larger story.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2017 23:09:11 GMT
I would actually prefer to be told -in a form of an entertaining dialogue with an interesting character. I do not like reading long text lore entries, because it's like reading reports, something I do all day at work in solitude. The game is a simulator of human interaction for me, rather than reading. I have access to books all the time, but a living human voice, a discussion... not really.
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Post by midnight tea on Mar 8, 2017 23:41:11 GMT
I would actually prefer to be told -in a form of an entertaining dialogue with an interesting character. I do not like reading long text lore entries, because it's like reading reports, something I do all day at work in solitude. The game is a simulator of human interaction for me, rather than reading. I have access to books all the time, but a living human voice, a discussion... not really. While you might have certain expectations towards the game, no - the game ain't a simulator of human interactions. It's a simulator of how it's to be a leader of a large organization. It involves interacting, socializing, delegating, exploring, fighting, listening and - of course - reading. Also - ask yourself how much it'd cost to voice most of content in a game this large. Then ask yourself just how fast "an entertaining dialogue with an interesting character" would grow old, if it was all we got. Personally, I prefer some variety in a game that requires about 100 hours for each playthrough - from character interactions, to finding a lost journal to striking visuals that convey much without a word being uttered. Thankfully BW gets better and better at this - in regard of visual language alone, DAI beats its predecessors to a pulp. So many things to find...
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Post by Dabrikishaw on Mar 9, 2017 0:16:38 GMT
There are people who weren't fans of Inquisition's open world design, namely the sidequests not being as intimate and adding collections objectives to the exploration aspect. I like Inquisition plenty, but even I thought the sidequests were kinds weak unless you talk about specific ones.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 9, 2017 0:37:38 GMT
I would actually prefer to be told -in a form of an entertaining dialogue with an interesting character. I do not like reading long text lore entries, because it's like reading reports, something I do all day at work in solitude. The game is a simulator of human interaction for me, rather than reading. I have access to books all the time, but a living human voice, a discussion... not really. Well, sure. But text-only is far cheaper than entertaining dialogue with interesting characters. Abolish the entire DAI war table and you free up enough zots for .. one cutscene? Two?
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Post by uberlurker on Mar 9, 2017 0:40:08 GMT
I would actually prefer to be told -in a form of an entertaining dialogue with an interesting character. I do not like reading long text lore entries, because it's like reading reports, something I do all day at work in solitude. The game is a simulator of human interaction for me, rather than reading. I have access to books all the time, but a living human voice, a discussion... not really. Well, sure. But text-only is far cheaper than entertaining dialogue with interesting characters. Abolish the entire DAI war table and you free up enough zots for .. one cutscene? Two? I'll take it. Seriously, 95% of your rewards from the war table are absolute garbage.
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Post by midnight tea on Mar 9, 2017 0:43:57 GMT
Well, sure. But text-only is far cheaper than entertaining dialogue with interesting characters. Abolish the entire DAI war table and you free up enough zots for .. one cutscene? Two? I'll take it. Seriously, 95% of your rewards from the war table are absolute garbage. ... So this is all about rewards now?
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Post by uberlurker on Mar 9, 2017 0:50:50 GMT
I'll take it. Seriously, 95% of your rewards from the war table are absolute garbage. ... So this is all about rewards now? Nah. The war tables felt obnoxious and pointless time wasters and having them be real time was a dumb decision. There was no skill or critical thinking for almost all of them. I'd be willing to suffer through them if the rewards were cool. I think the only good thing I got was...some kind of axe from the Grey Wardens? One of those character power amulets?
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Post by midnight tea on Mar 9, 2017 0:51:40 GMT
There are people who weren't fans of Inquisition's open world design, namely the sidequests not being as intimate and adding collections objectives to the exploration aspect. I like Inquisition plenty, but even I thought the sidequests were kinds weak unless you talk about specific ones. Oh sure - I'm not going to argue that DAI content was strong all across the board. But at this point we're talking about something different, with some arguing that there should be more spoken dialogue/cinematics, some even claiming that most of the written stuff is garbage, while others that they should just be replaced with one type of content alltogether - nevermind the cost of it, or the fact that VO/cinematics ain't a 'be-all and end-all' of telling the story in the game, especially one of scope of a big RPG. Either way, DA team has proven so with JOH - which didn't have more cinematics/VO than the main game, yet was praised for improvements in implementing quests and side-quests across the zone.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2017 0:52:11 GMT
I would actually prefer to be told -in a form of an entertaining dialogue with an interesting character. I do not like reading long text lore entries, because it's like reading reports, something I do all day at work in solitude. The game is a simulator of human interaction for me, rather than reading. I have access to books all the time, but a living human voice, a discussion... not really. Well, sure. But text-only is far cheaper than entertaining dialogue with interesting characters. Abolish the entire DAI war table and you free up enough zots for .. one cutscene? Two? yeah, i will be Okay with that. jade Empire, SWTOR, KOTOR etc, do that just fine. Less is more. :) A dialogue with blurb voice, or no voice imo if it is lively, is a better form of delivery than a scrollable wall of text. I overall prefer Jade Empire,ME2/3 and DA2 to DAI style of content delivery. Clear path, compact game, lots of interaction, living, breathing play-through, without silent parts of being lost doing nothing much.
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Post by midnight tea on Mar 9, 2017 0:57:07 GMT
... So this is all about rewards now? Nah. The war tables felt obnoxious and pointless time wasters and having them be real time was a dumb decision. There was no skill or critical thinking for almost all of them. I'd be willing to suffer through them if the rewards were cool. They were obnoxious time wasters... for you. For someone interested with lore and larger story, they were a trove of useful or immersive information, nevermind a pretty much perfect "show don't tell" device of Inquisitor delegating their forces all across the sphere of their influence. ... Of course, if you only care about rewards or rewards for applied skill, this would be a moot point.
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Post by uberlurker on Mar 9, 2017 1:03:11 GMT
Nah. The war tables felt obnoxious and pointless time wasters and having them be real time was a dumb decision. There was no skill or critical thinking for almost all of them. I'd be willing to suffer through them if the rewards were cool. They were obnoxious time wasters... for you. For someone interested with lore and larger story, they were a trove of useful or immersive information, nevermind a pretty much perfect "show don't tell" device of Inquisitor delegating their forces all across the sphere of their influence. ... Of course, if you only care about rewards or rewards for applied skill, this would be a moot point. Edit: Nevermind. Arguing like this is pointless. I'm outie.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 9, 2017 1:14:11 GMT
... So this is all about rewards now? Nah. The war tables felt obnoxious and pointless time wasters and having them be real time was a dumb decision. There was no skill or critical thinking for almost all of them. I'd be willing to suffer through them if the rewards were cool. I think the only good thing I got was...some kind of axe from the Grey Wardens? One of those character power amulets? Suffer through reading text?
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Post by midnight tea on Mar 9, 2017 1:31:22 GMT
They were obnoxious time wasters... for you. For someone interested with lore and larger story, they were a trove of useful or immersive information, nevermind a pretty much perfect "show don't tell" device of Inquisitor delegating their forces all across the sphere of their influence. ... Of course, if you only care about rewards or rewards for applied skill, this would be a moot point. Too bad none of the war table missions had any type of effect on the main story. You could skip it and nothing would change. You can't recruit Dagna without a war table mission. You can't recruit Specialization teachers without War Table missions. You can't complete many important quests, including personal companion quests without a War table. Many Dragon Age tiles in Dragon Age Keep won't flip if you skip the War Table. At this point I have to ask if you're sure whether your memory about the game ain't a bit spotty. So... apparently there's nothing wrong with "thinking the way you do", but reeeeeeeeallly liking Dragon Age (...and Solas?) is something that should cast shadow on my way of thinking, ey? Not exactly subtle, that. Also - entirely fallacious. The "me being in minority and most folk don't want that" is a claim pulled out of nowhere. You are entitled to your opinions, obviously, but they're not a 'voice of majority', despite you attempting to frame them as such.
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Post by midnight tea on Mar 9, 2017 1:35:36 GMT
Nah. The war tables felt obnoxious and pointless time wasters and having them be real time was a dumb decision. There was no skill or critical thinking for almost all of them. I'd be willing to suffer through them if the rewards were cool. I think the only good thing I got was...some kind of axe from the Grey Wardens? One of those character power amulets? Suffer through reading text? Such horrible torment.
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Post by Kabraxal on Mar 9, 2017 1:50:56 GMT
Nah. The war tables felt obnoxious and pointless time wasters and having them be real time was a dumb decision. There was no skill or critical thinking for almost all of them. I'd be willing to suffer through them if the rewards were cool. They were obnoxious time wasters... for you. For someone interested with lore and larger story, they were a trove of useful or immersive information, nevermind a pretty much perfect "show don't tell" device of Inquisitor delegating their forces all across the sphere of their influence. ... Of course, if you only care about rewards or rewards for applied skill, this would be a moot point. I think it's the same divide between roleplayers and non roleplayers. War tables, notes, judgements, astrariums, and even shard collecting (for certain RPs) help immerse me into the world and thus into the character I am roleplaying. I'm given a variety of choices and outlets to display personality... even if that means avoiding those things as well. I mean, my no nonsense stern mage had very little patience for politics, meandering, and warfare so he didn't do a lot and only partook of things necessary for the mission. My fun loving, curious to a fault, rogue Elf was all over the place going "ooo shiny! WHAT NEXT?!"
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2017 6:59:03 GMT
It means some people have such poor memories that they can only compare a new game to the most recent game they played, as if any given new game needs to be compared to anything in the first place. Some people can only judge something by comparisons, rather than on its own merits. We point and giggle at such people. I applaud you for actually resembling Dorian with that post. But Dragon Age and Mass Effect borrow major mechanics from each other frequently. It's absolutely undeniable. Especially since Bioware themselves consistently and explicitly say they do this. Believing the two are incomparable is flat out objectively wrong, lmao. That being said, on-topic, Inquisition was far too big for its own good, and had some of the worst side content in Bioware's history. It was incredible shallow and tedious, and the story was restricted until you did a certain number of items on some arbitrary checklist. I've been replaying Inquisition lately, and I'll admit that I was much too hard on it over the past few years. It legitimately has a lot to like... But certain parts of it or so fucking unbelievably tedious that I can't blame people for thinking it was a trash game. Out of the 100+ hours I put into the game (and I even skipped the optional locations), only about 20 of those were actually spent with any sort of meaningful content. After 3 years, of course people are mostly going to remember where the majority of their time was spent. Especially since it's so insultingly shallow and pointless. I don't think Bioware was necessarily 'lazy', but I do think they had no idea what they were doing, and only made the game as big as they did because 'open-world' has become a fad that honestly needs to die until devs can figure out how to actually make an open world interesting. Mass Effect Andromeda will undeniably suffer from this as well. It will hopefully be better, and I intend to play it through all the way, but it's just the nature of open-world games. Especially when coming from a company that is known for their focus on narrative and characters. A world as big as Andromeda will detract from that.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2017 7:02:10 GMT
Yes, but it gets bogged own with walls and walls of text nonsense. You might not find it superfluous but most people do, especially the war table missions which are 90% pointless busywork. You do realize the war table is how leaders of huge organisations would handle delegation... right? Actually, there's a lot more involved in real life, but that was all cut out because none of that stuff is fun. Oh, wait... The War Table as a whole isn't fun. Well, shit. I guess it is pointless.
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Post by vit246 on Mar 9, 2017 7:40:45 GMT
I have no problem with reading text. I love reading. I wish Bioware would bring back full-text dialogue. The problem was, stuff like codexes and journal writings were so very out of the way in those big open world zones and DAI was user-unfriendly. The War Table was okay. I enjoyed reading them. But I got tired of the War Table as a whole, so I downloaded a mod that instantly finished missions.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2017 7:50:05 GMT
I have no problem with reading text. I love reading. I wish Bioware would bring back full-text dialogue. The problem was, stuff like codexes and journal writings were so very out of the way in those big open world zones and DAI was user-unfriendly. The War Table was okay. I enjoyed reading them. But I got tired of the War Table as a whole, so I downloaded a mod that instantly finished missions. I'm mixed on the text-based dialogue. I don't hate it, and in most instances it seems to work better, but Mass Effect is known for the whole cinematic approach, so it would be weird without. I mostly skip through dialogue anyway, because I read faster than they speak, but something about it not being there would just bum me out. Same with Dragon Age, even though it didn't start out that way. Fallout needs to go back, though. The voiced protagonist was a bad idea. Not entirely, in theory, but in practice, they did a trash job.
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Post by vit246 on Mar 9, 2017 8:15:18 GMT
I have no problem with reading text. I love reading. I wish Bioware would bring back full-text dialogue. The problem was, stuff like codexes and journal writings were so very out of the way in those big open world zones and DAI was user-unfriendly. The War Table was okay. I enjoyed reading them. But I got tired of the War Table as a whole, so I downloaded a mod that instantly finished missions. I'm mixed on the text-based dialogue. I don't hate it, and in most instances it seems to work better, but Mass Effect is known for the whole cinematic approach, so it would be weird without. I mostly skip through dialogue anyway, because I read faster than they speak, but something about it not being there would just bum me out. Same with Dragon Age, even though it didn't start out that way. Fallout needs to go back, though. The voiced protagonist was a bad idea. Not entirely, in theory, but in practice, they did a trash job. Its more about knowing exactly what my character's gonna say and not say for the roleplaying. I hate being surprised. And Fallout 4 shows how cancerous the Dialogue Wheel can be. Up and Down and Left and Right. ONLY 4 options. ALWAYS 4 options. 4 ways of saying "Yes". One or two word "paraphrase". Impossible to tell what the character's gonna say and how they say it. Incredibly dumbed down dialogue. Voicing takes up more space than silent text, so inevitably the dialogue will be smaller and shorter and less than what it could've been with silent text. But thats another issue. I'd settle for full-text with the cinematic voicing. And Horizon Zero Dawn is just the latest one to suffer the dialogue wheel.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2017 8:20:16 GMT
I'm mixed on the text-based dialogue. I don't hate it, and in most instances it seems to work better, but Mass Effect is known for the whole cinematic approach, so it would be weird without. I mostly skip through dialogue anyway, because I read faster than they speak, but something about it not being there would just bum me out. Same with Dragon Age, even though it didn't start out that way. Fallout needs to go back, though. The voiced protagonist was a bad idea. Not entirely, in theory, but in practice, they did a trash job. Its more about knowing exactly what my character's gonna say and not say for the roleplaying. I hate being surprised. And Fallout 4 shows how cancerous the Dialogue Wheel can be. Up and Down and Left and Right. ONLY 4 options. ALWAYS 4 options. 4 ways of saying "Yes". One or two word "paraphrase". Impossible to tell what the character's gonna say and how they say it. Incredibly dumbed down dialogue. And Horizon Zero Dawn is just the latest one. I mean, the paraphrases could just be made more clear, if that was the biggest concern. You wouldn't have to go back to a lack of voice acting for that. The problem with Fallout 4 is that Bethesda had literally no idea how to implement it. "Sarcastic" gives no indication as to whether it's a "Yes" or a "No", and that's a blatant design oversight. And a dumb one.
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Post by brad2240 on Mar 10, 2017 14:41:32 GMT
When I first heard "DA:I in space" it brought back memories of weak stories, weak villains, questing in large empty spaces, unlikable companions and many, many bugs. I was very nervous. But what I've seen so far gives me hope that Andromeda is borrowing the better parts of Inquisition and replacing or improving the worse parts. What? The biotics got better and better with each ME. Combos for instance did not exist until ME2. I really have no idea what you could possibly be referring to, such blanket statement with no information provided to back it up. In ME1 you were actually challenged to use all your skills in a battle against a mob. They all had longer cooldowns which forced a more tactical approach and made every skill useful. In ME2 & 3 this was scrapped entirely for a more streamlined approach. Not only did we have access to less skills but biotics became more spammable. You could spam the same two skills for the entire game and write off all others. I'm sorry but that was not fun. It was boring and broken. The fact that you could just charge and nova your way through ME3 on its hardest difficulty just shows how broken they became with each ME. In ME1 biotics still felt to me like I was playing an RPG. The physics in ME1 were also amazing, a singularity would pull in surrounding objects. Something not really repeated to the same effect in later installments. That applies to all three games, though. You could always just use the two "best" skills and ignore everything else. In ME 1, Lift and Singularity neutralized everything, turning the game into a skeet shoot. It was completely broken. Fun, sure, but not what I'd call tactical or challenging. Biotics were the most balanced in ME 2, where they didn't render the higher difficulties completely moot. People yearning for the glory of ME 1 could play on Veteran or lower and still dominate everything like before. ME 3 threw that balance out the window. But none of the games ever forced you to spam the same two powers over and over. You could always mix it up, try different bonus powers, or - heaven forbid - play builds that aren't optimized. Spamming is a playstyle choice, and one that ME caters to, but it's not the only choice.
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