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Post by shechinah on Apr 8, 2017 14:43:22 GMT
Saw someone mention the family secrets and it got me thinking. I suppose they could both do a time leap and keep the Ryder twins. After any upcoming DLC shove them back in cryo so they can wait on a cure to be found for their mother. Fast Forward a couple dozen or hundred years and bring all 3 of them back. Yeah, not what I would prefer either but it wouldn't be totally out of left field. We do exactly that to some other npc's throughout the game. I'd personally hate that because it dosen't mesh at all with the Ryder that I've established and outright contradict dialogue options that I've chosen. Not to mention the relationships that Ryder can build. I also don't recall us commanding anybody back into cryo: we are able to weigh in on who can leave cryo. The few people that choose to go back into cryo do so of their own volition and at their own request.
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Post by decafhigh on Apr 8, 2017 14:49:14 GMT
Saw someone mention the family secrets and it got me thinking. I suppose they could both do a time leap and keep the Ryder twins. After any upcoming DLC shove them back in cryo so they can wait on a cure to be found for their mother. Fast Forward a couple dozen or hundred years and bring all 3 of them back. Yeah, not what I would prefer either but it wouldn't be totally out of left field. We do exactly that to some other npc's throughout the game. I'd personally hate that because it dosen't mesh at all with the Ryder that I've established and outright contradict dialogue options that I've chosen. Not to mention the relationships that Ryder can build. I also don't recall us commanding anybody back into cryo: we are able to weigh in on who can leave cryo. The few people that choose to go back into cryo do so of their own volition and at their own request. Yeah didn't say I would like it, just that if they want to do a time leap its not impossible to do that and keep Ryder. There is at least one instance of Ryder doing that, and I seem to recall other mentions of it even if we don't specifically order it.
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Post by shechinah on Apr 8, 2017 14:55:08 GMT
Yeah didn't say I would like it, just that if they want to do a time leap its not impossible to do that and keep Ryder. There is at least one instance of Ryder doing that, and I seem to recall other mentions of it even if we don't specifically order it.Can you remember which? I don't recall that so I'm curious. Honestly, I'd rather they not bring Ryder back then. It basically wouldn't be my Ryder given how that decision would pretty much contradict all of her important characterization.
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Post by decafhigh on Apr 8, 2017 15:01:13 GMT
Yeah didn't say I would like it, just that if they want to do a time leap its not impossible to do that and keep Ryder. There is at least one instance of Ryder doing that, and I seem to recall other mentions of it even if we don't specifically order it.Can you remember which? I don't recall that so I'm curious. Honestly, I'd rather they not bring Ryder back then. It basically wouldn't be my Ryder given how that decision would pretty much contradict all of her important characterization. The Nexus side quest Contagion I think is the name. The medic guy lets his mom out of stasis not knowing she has a contagious disease and you have to track her down. If you let her live you stuff her and her son back in pods till they find a cure.
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Post by toomanyclouds on Apr 8, 2017 15:01:37 GMT
I'm sort of in two minds about this. The longer I played ME:A, the more I realised I just don't like Ryder and the roleplaying is not varied enough for me to create a Ryder I like - but if I replay it, I know I'll stay away from the "funny" options as if my computer would bluescreen if I clicked on them. However, I think we've now basically brought Ryder to a point where in the next game (with maybe a few year time jump), they could have developed a more varied personality, they have a better position to make decisions than at the beginning of ME:A, when they were just a rookie with an AI stuck in their brain, and we have spent a lot of time developing them and their family. Besides, they might even get a writing team that wasn't totally strapped for time and might actually be able to make dialogue wheels which have more than two choices on the regular (and in which one choice isn't sometimes just the other choice but with a line added or missing - seriously, I've noticed this multiple times already).
That said, if they scrap Ryder, I'm not gonna be heartbroken. However, it would have to be Andromeda. The Milky Way really is a lost cause. How would you ever write the different endings in to satisfaction - especially considering one of them is that you told the Reapers to eff off and doomed your cycle to destruction?
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 8, 2017 15:16:04 GMT
The protagonist should have been Alec Ryder. Putting aside that I would have hated the ever living hell out of this, I think this would have absolutely ruined his character. Part of what made him interesting was the fact that he had secrets and was distant, and we he left behind information to reveal more about himself and what he knew. If we played him, we'd already know everything from the start, but how would we as players learn stuff that he learned before the Initiative even left the Milky Way?
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Post by dare on Apr 8, 2017 15:44:33 GMT
Why even leave the Milky Way to begin with? Why not make destroy cannon and play as a series of Path Finders whos job it is to reclaim and repair Mass Relays a few thousand years after the original trilogy. Mapping new habitable worlds and previously unexplored systems within the 99% of the milky way that remains unexplored Recovering lost technology and stored memories (If via Protheans) through beacons. Sam acts as a bridge between yourself and an otherwise indecipherable precursor language much in the same way only with no need for Sudoku. Along the way you discover evidence of already established precursor species and find out one of them might not actually be as dead as we thought they were. And now they want their galaxy back. You as the inexperienced Pathfinder now have a new mission. Ok its not the greatest idea. But if we're going on an epic journey to Andromeda why are we swapping PC in roles that should be reclaimed by them in the next installment? Why wouldn't you just stick with what was there and be honest about creating a new breed of replaceable errand boys under the authority of an established group. Why make the Pathfinder out to be a title of substance in the first place? Because, well, you know, Screw Effect man, they had to give us game that is compact to that title.
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Post by Sondergaard on Apr 8, 2017 17:07:22 GMT
Because, well, you know, Screw Effect man, they had to give us game that is compact to that title. My dog makes more sense than you.
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Post by bigevil on Apr 8, 2017 17:19:26 GMT
I really don't want new protagonists for each new Mass Effect. I don't mind it in Dragon Age, it's part of the series, but that doesn't mean they should make both series the same. There needs to be something unique about them other than one being sci-fi and the other fantasy. The more they borrow features from the other the more they'll stagnate.
They made a big deal about Ryder starting out as a regular person and becoming a hero. Why not let that development continue rather than discarding them and starting with someone new?
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Post by Revan Reborn on Apr 8, 2017 19:33:58 GMT
The last thing BioWare should ever do is take choice away from the player. Revan was a mishandling of epic proportions. Not only did BioWare destroy Revan's character, but they also simultaneously destroyed the Exile! SWTOR has a lot of problems, but one of the biggest flaws was destroying those two characters and taking away what they meant to us, the players. I don't want to ever see something like that happen ever again. Yes. And I am actually more bitter about the Exile, but at least she was not actually paraded in front of us, just implied. True. However, the Revan book completely destroyed the Exile. He/She went from being potentially the most powerful Force user ever to an under-powered sidekick head over heels for Revan. Then she was conveniently killed off for "plot reasons." Just an absolute waste of an incredible character. KOTOR 2 is still one of my favorite RPGs of all time because the story and characters were so good.
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Can you dig it?
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Post by SKAR on Apr 8, 2017 19:40:38 GMT
If they have a new protag every game, I'm gonna tie the noose and blame EA.
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Post by shechinah on Apr 8, 2017 19:44:55 GMT
Yes. And I am actually more bitter about the Exile, but at least she was not actually paraded in front of us, just implied. True. However, the Revan book completely destroyed the Exile. He/She went from being potentially the most powerful Force user ever to an under-powered sidekick head over heels for Revan. Then she was conveniently killed off for "plot reasons." Just an absolute waste of an incredible character. KOTOR 2 is still one of my favorite RPGs of all time because the story and characters were so good. I pretty much stayed away from any material that dealt with the canon versons of Revan and the Exile. The only exception was SWTOR but I consider the stories of the singleplayer games to be separate from the stories of the multiplayer games. This is not just because the canon versions are different from my versions but also because I just don't like how some events were retroactively changed such as apparently making the Sith Emperor responsible for Revan turning to the darkside. I much rather liked the idea that it was a gradual slide. It was something that I adopted into my roleplaying of the character: Revan had well-meaning intentions but very slowly and gradually slipped into the darkside as a result of slipping further into the means justify the ends mentality.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2017 19:51:09 GMT
In addition, need I remind everyone how many complaints there were of favorite companions especially LIs) being abandoned from game to game? Do we really want to start that up again? They did that because they wanted to go that illusive man route and you couldn't have some of them working with IM. I think to go with the story they wanted to tell like for ME2. We still got two with cameos. Yeah that wasn't great, but it did afford you the ability to see the characters evolve over time. Like Wrex. It was great seeing what he was up to. And Liara was great seeing what happened to her. Then they shifted back. I think what would be idea and hopefully what they would learn from that (there were people who loved it and people who hated it) is to have MORE characters and let YOU decide who joins. Maybe have 8 spots and each is able to join you but you pick which eight. A few new ones. Maybe a few who for some very logical reason cannot join for all of it, but who join your for part of it on some specific mission sort of like how Tali showed at the end. People wanted to have her for more of it but you had her for some of it at least and that made people happy. That is what they need to do and bring on some new people as well to keep it fresh. Maybe you can not have the old ones join you if you don't like them or like how they changed them (hopefully they will have grown some). The problem is that it seems to be very black and white with BW or it did back then. Now I think they have to be thinking about being more INCLUSIVE rather than exclusive. They could easily achieve that by having new characters for those that want that while having the old characters on for part of all of the mission. They could come up with some good reasons why some characters from this one can't join you for the whole adventure, but they could easily justify having them for part of it. And if they are really wise they would have everyone show for the final mission with you choosing who is on your team (much like this game). Not an all or none but a who and when.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Apr 8, 2017 19:57:59 GMT
True. However, the Revan book completely destroyed the Exile. He/She went from being potentially the most powerful Force user ever to an under-powered sidekick head over heels for Revan. Then she was conveniently killed off for "plot reasons." Just an absolute waste of an incredible character. KOTOR 2 is still one of my favorite RPGs of all time because the story and characters were so good. I pretty much stayed away from any material that dealt with the canon versons of Revan and the Exile. The only exception was SWTOR but I consider the stories of the singleplayer games to be separate from the stories of the multiplayer games. This is not just because the canon versions are different from my versions but also because I just don't like how some events were retroactively changed such as apparently making the Sith Emperor responsible for Revan turning to the darkside. I much rather liked the idea that it was a gradual slide. It was something that I adopted into my roleplaying of the character: Revan had well-meaning intentions but very slowly and gradually slipped into the darkside as a result of slipping further into the means justify the ends mentality. Agreed. I enjoyed the lore additions to Revan's character in KOTOR 2. Even though Kreia wasn't the most credible source, I really liked the angle of Revan being this morally conflicted character that had to do terrible things in order to realize a positive outcome. As far as I'm concerned, it was the horrors of war as well as frequent contact with locations corrupted by the Dark Side (Trayus Academy, Malachor V, the Star Forge, etc.) that led to his/her gradual fall. Even when Revan became the "Dark Lord of the Sith," I never saw him/her as evil. Revan would have Hk-47 assassinate certain targets, but otherwise he would keep infrastructure and governments in place. Malak, on the other hand, destroyed anything and everything that was a threat to his power. Even when Revan was corrupted, I still believe, in his/her own way, he/she was trying to save the Republic. As Kreia so eloquently explained one's fall to the Dark Side, and I believe this is directly relevant to Revan: "It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it."
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Post by decafhigh on Apr 8, 2017 20:00:42 GMT
They did that because they wanted to go that illusive man route and you couldn't have some of them working with IM. I think to go with the story they wanted to tell like for ME2. We still got two with cameos. Yeah that wasn't great, but it did afford you the ability to see the characters evolve over time. Like Wrex. It was great seeing what he was up to. And Liara was great seeing what happened to her. Then they shifted back. Ugh, the way they ruined Liara in ME2 is by itself enough reason for me to hate that game. The rest of ME2 was just more for the pile of that particular $h1t sandwich.
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Post by griffith82 on Apr 8, 2017 20:05:32 GMT
Why even leave the Milky Way to begin with? Why not make destroy cannon and play as a series of Path Finders whos job it is to reclaim and repair Mass Relays a few thousand years after the original trilogy. Mapping new habitable worlds and previously unexplored systems within the 99% of the milky way that remains unexplored Recovering lost technology and stored memories (If via Protheans) through beacons. Sam acts as a bridge between yourself and an otherwise indecipherable precursor language much in the same way only with no need for Sudoku. Along the way you discover evidence of already established precursor species and find out one of them might not actually be as dead as we thought they were. And now they want their galaxy back. You as the inexperienced Pathfinder now have a new mission. Ok its not the greatest idea. But if we're going on an epic journey to Andromeda why are we swapping PC in roles that should be reclaimed by them in the next installment? Why wouldn't you just stick with what was there and be honest about creating a new breed of replaceable errand boys under the authority of an established group. Why make the Pathfinder out to be a title of substance in the first place? The obvious next step for the Milky Way is MEHEM and then Leviathan threat down the line. Then they could have actually tackled the idea of a form of synthesis (not the Reaperization type of ME3) as a necessity to combat (not facilitate) Leviathan control. Ideas like galactic peace under the Leviathans and rather or not free will is worth the hardships. All kinds of ideas.
Nah. That would require good writers.
I've said it before no no no. No one will canonize MEHEM and for good reason, it's terrible.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Apr 8, 2017 20:15:04 GMT
They did that because they wanted to go that illusive man route and you couldn't have some of them working with IM. I think to go with the story they wanted to tell like for ME2. We still got two with cameos. Yeah that wasn't great, but it did afford you the ability to see the characters evolve over time. Like Wrex. It was great seeing what he was up to. And Liara was great seeing what happened to her. Then they shifted back. Ugh, the way they ruined Liara in ME2 is by itself enough reason for me to hate that game. The rest of ME2 was just more for the pile of that particular $h1t sandwich. I personally felt Liara was a bit annoying in ME1. That being said, I never understood how she went from being this dorky researcher that talks too much to a cold-blooded killer with no remorse in a period of two years. It was just so far out of left field that Liara in ME2 may as well have been a completely new character. The obvious next step for the Milky Way is MEHEM and then Leviathan threat down the line. Then they could have actually tackled the idea of a form of synthesis (not the Reaperization type of ME3) as a necessity to combat (not facilitate) Leviathan control. Ideas like galactic peace under the Leviathans and rather or not free will is worth the hardships. All kinds of ideas.
Nah. That would require good writers.
I've said it before no no no. No one will canonize MEHEM and for good reason, it's terrible. MEHEM is terrible for the simple reason that it takes for granted everything Shepard did over the course of three games. It provides an unrealistic "happy ending" for the sake of a happy ending and is just as poorly executed as the original three choices were at release. Given the stakes and the destructive power of the Reapers, there is no way a happy ending would or should have been possible. Something had to be sacrificed, which is why High EMS Destroy with Shepard living is my canon choice. Everybody can't win. That just makes for a lackluster and boring narrative.
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Post by decafhigh on Apr 8, 2017 20:23:16 GMT
MEHEM is terrible for the simple reason that it takes for granted everything Shepard did over the course of three games. It provides an unrealistic "happy ending" for the sake of a happy ending and is just as poorly executed as the original three choices were at release. Given the stakes and the destructive power of the Reapers, there is no way a happy ending would or should have been possible. Something had to be sacrificed, which is why High EMS Destroy with Shepard living is my canon choice. Everybody can't win. That just makes for a lackluster and boring narrative. Even with MEHEM you still end up with billions dead across the galaxy, most of the major centers of galactic civilization destroyed, the Relays blown to smithereens, and most of the Galactic races stuck in the Sol system to slowly starve to death as resources run out. It still isn't a sunshine and rainbows ending. I like it simply because it cuts out all the Star Child nonsense and actually makes sense within the trilogy's narrative. You built the Crucible, it worked, Reapers gone, now on to rebuilding society.
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Post by shechinah on Apr 8, 2017 20:26:25 GMT
Agreed. I enjoyed the lore additions to Revan's character in KOTOR 2. Even though Kreia wasn't the most credible source, I really liked the angle of Revan being this morally conflicted character that had to do terrible things in order to realize a positive outcome. As far as I'm concerned, it was the horrors of war as well as frequent contact with locations corrupted by the Dark Side (Trayus Academy, Malachor V, the Star Forge, etc.) that led to his gradual fall. Even when Revan became the "Dark Lord of the Sith," I never saw him/her as evil. Revan would have Hk-47 assassinate certain targets, but otherwise he would keep infrastructure and governments in place. Malak, on the other hand, destroyed anything and everything that was a threat to his power. Even when Revan was corrupted I still believe, in his/her own way, he/she was trying to save the Republic. As Kreia so eloquently explained one's fall to the Dark Side, and I believe this is directly relevant to Revan: "It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it."And I find that to be an infinitely more interesting angle than "Oh, someone turned them evil and then they got cured of being evil." It honestly feels like that addition of the lore detracts immensely from not only the story of Revan but also Revan's character. It removes almost all of the psychological aspects in exchange for something that I don't feel adds anything of interest. *Revan was someone who defied the Jedi Order because she believed their powers and code meant that they shouldn't stand by while people suffered if they had the power to stop that suffering. She began to disregard more of the Order's tenets and teachings because she considered pragmatism to be the better way. if doing something that was considered morally justifed prolonged or let to people suffering then how could it be considered morally right was how she thought. Ending the war meant putting a stop to people suffering and so any means was justified to reach that end. By the time she'd fallen to the darkside, she believed that the only way to truely keep peace and safety was for her to assume absolute power. To achieve this end, the means were once again justified in her mind even if it entailed killing those who were once her comrades to ensure that only those loyal to her lived. When her mind was wiped, Revan developed a different personality instead of keeping her old one because she was a different person who went through different events and viewed things differently as a result. Note: *as how I roleplayed Revan.
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Post by shechinah on Apr 8, 2017 20:28:59 GMT
I like it simply because it cuts out all the Star Child nonsense and actually makes sense within the trilogy's narrative. You built the Crucible, it worked, Reapers gone, now on to rebuilding society. That's pretty much why I choose it: I don't have to deal with Star Child and I can deal with the Reapers without having to select one of the endings that I don't care for. It's not so much for the "happy ending" but more because it removes all of the bits that I don't care to see. I'd have liked an option to choose whether Shepard survives but I'm just happy that this mod was made.
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N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by lavigne on Apr 8, 2017 20:40:08 GMT
High EMS Destroy says hello....
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Post by shechinah on Apr 8, 2017 20:41:31 GMT
High EMS Destroy says hello.... Star Child would be the face that greeted me. Never again, I promised myself, never again shall that be the face that greets me upon the end of my journey.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by lavigne on Apr 8, 2017 20:44:19 GMT
High EMS Destroy says hello.... Star Child. Never again. High EMS Destroy - Space Casper dead - Reapers dead - Shepard alive I win, f**k you Star Jar.
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Post by decafhigh on Apr 8, 2017 20:45:54 GMT
High EMS Destroy says hello.... High EMS Destroy and the MEHEM aren't too different in the end result far I as know. Destroy blows up EDI and all the Geth right? That alone makes MEHEM better. The real point of it for me is the No Star Child! It isn't so much Shep not dying for me as it it making the end actually feel like part of the ME trilogy instead of suddenly shifting gears being torn out of Mass Effect universe and thrown into Deus Ex 1's ending.
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Pathfinder
2,000
Feb 19, 2017 18:14:40 GMT
February 2017
revanreborn
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Pax_Augusta
Heero the pilot
Pax_Augusta01
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Post by Revan Reborn on Apr 8, 2017 20:46:58 GMT
Even with MEHEM you still end up with billions dead across the galaxy, most of the major centers of galactic civilization destroyed, the Relays blown to smithereens, and most of the Galactic races stuck in the Sol system to slowly starve to death as resources run out. It still isn't a sunshine and rainbows ending. I like it simply because it cuts out all the Star Child nonsense and actually makes sense within the trilogy's narrative. You built the Crucible, it worked, Reapers gone, now on to rebuilding society. I'm aware as I've watched it on YouTube. By "happy ending," I meant more so for the crew of the Normandy (especially Shepard) and that everybody gets out unscathed, not so much the rest of the galaxy. While I believe starchild was terribly implemented, I don't find MEHEM to be much better as it essentially turns the Crucibile into a deus ex machina for the sake of moving the plot forward and ending the game. The Crucible "just working" was never realistic to me, considering previous cycles had tried to get it to work and failed. At least with Leviathan and Extended Cut, the nonsense that is starchild makes more sense. It's not perfect, but I at least find that more satisfying and fulfilling, especially since I chose High EMS Destroy. That being said, I am happy that modders did provide an alternative ending for PC gamers if they found the four choices in-game to be unsatisfactory. And I find that to be an infinitely more interesting angle than "Oh, someone turned them evil and then they got cured of being evil." It honestly feels like that addition of the lore detracts immensely from not only the story of Revan but also Revan's character. It removes almost all of the psychological aspects in exchange for something that I don't feel adds anything of interest. *Revan was someone who defied the Jedi Order because she believed their powers and code meant that they shouldn't stand by while people suffered if they had the power to stop that suffering. She began to disregard more of the Order's tenets and teachings because she considered pragmatism to be the better way. if doing something that was considered morally justifed prolonged or let to people suffering then how could it be considered morally right was how she thought. Ending the war meant putting a stop to people suffering and so any means was justified to reach that end. By the time she'd fallen to the darkside, she believed that the only way to truely keep peace and safety was for her to assume absolute power. To achieve this end, the means were once again justified in her mind even if it entailed killing those who were once her comrades to ensure that only those loyal to her lived. When her mind was wiped, Revan developed a different personality instead of keeping her old one because she was a different person who went through different events and viewed things differently as a result. Note: *as how I roleplayed Revan. Agreed. That retcon was a lazy and black and white way of depicting Revan's character and how falling to the Dark Side works. One doesn't just simply fall to the Dark Side overnight. It's a gradual thing that you aren't even aware of until it's too late. That makes for far more interesting storytelling, in my opinion. I more or less had the same motivations and goals for my Revan as you did yours. He was a pragmatist and a rationalist above anything else. He was never emotional and had to make tough decisions he realized no one else could or would make (such as using the mass shadow generator). Inevitably, the only way to save the Republic from the "True Sith" threat (the ones who used the Mandalorians as pawns) was by asserting control and power over the entire galaxy and preparing for the inevitable war.
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