R'Shara
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 26, 2017 21:10:03 GMT
Is the education really that bad these days? Its called freezing POINT because it is a point on the temp-scale, not a range. And like others said, Mr. Celsius used the exact points for water freezing and boiling at see level as references for his scale. For convenience, because we are mostly water and deal everyday with it. And for the environmental hazard in the game: Its absolutely ridiculous. ME-armors are sealed, space worthy suits with closed live-support, energy shielding, servos to assist movement and in ME:A a fusion powered rocket on the back. The biggest problem would be to get rid of the heat generated by the wearer and the numerous support systems. Look up the specs for real spacesuits. They are limited by the capacity of the thermal storage system where they dump the excess heat. If they are fully exhausted, the wearer would be cooked inside by his own heat. Ok, they have to work without a external medium which will cary at least some heat away. But for freezing in a space suit the external atmosphere must be extremely dense or having the thermal transport capacity of a fluid. I kinda walked away from that argument. But 4C is like over 40F. There's no way water will start to freeze at that temp. It's also way easier and more likely for water to freeze below 0C than it is to freeze above it. The fact that snow falls above 0C doesn't mean what he thinks it means. It's actually harder for snow to fall in below freezing temperatures. Look at Antarctica. One of the coldest places on Earth, and it hardly gets any snow in a year. Ok, a typo then, that I can accept. Lowest temp in space will be around -270°C because of the omnipresent 3K background radiation. To get colder the region must be really special, which is so for the boomerang nebula. It cools below the level of the background radiation with the same trick a freezer uses: Expanding gas. Lowest temp in a lab was some nK above absolute zero, which is 0K or -273,15°C Yeah I brought this up specifically in my general environmental hazards thread.
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Apr 26, 2017 21:26:24 GMT
Like most of the science parts of ME fiction, I think you just kind of have to roll with it. But it's a valid criticism for the Voeld temp with regard to the hazard mechanic...that's quite balmy compared to space. It probably should have been in the -150C or so range and instead of depleting shields/health, it probably would have been better if you took extra damage in firefights since materials embrittle at colder temperatures. Generally, I found the various hazards more of an annoyance than the additional fun challenge such was meant to bring. You said it. It's the level of disbelief that brings you out of the immersion. Andromeda struggles to sell that point with SAM going off incessantly to bring about that point. Sadistic Aggravation Meter is what SAM really stands for by the way.
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Post by Dirk on Apr 26, 2017 22:41:51 GMT
I agree that cold hazard and even heat hazard in ME:A make little sense, considering the technological advancement in ME universe. A good internal heater with low thermal conductivity materials would work well in those low temperatures. Regarding the freezing of water, water freezing at around ~4C is possible but unlikely. We can take a look at water phase diagram: We can see that above 632 MPa, the freezing point increases to above 0C very quickly. But pressure above 632 MPa is very incredibly unlikely to occur on Voeld's atmosphere.
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R'Shara
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 26, 2017 22:49:24 GMT
It's what I said based on that quora page. Randomly, sure, it's possible, but under normal conditions, not likely. It's a lot easier to get ice to wait to form until below zero, than to encourage it to form above zero.
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Post by ProbeAway on Apr 26, 2017 23:00:35 GMT
Ok, I just don't think it makes sense, and I don't think that doing it repeatedly across different games somehow makes it logical. That's all. I'm not saying it's gamebreaking or anything. dude. the only thing that can stop cold is insulation. Aka trapping heat. The major tech advances in mess effect are mass effect field based. All mass effect field don't stop temperature being that's effected by the movement of atoms. tech in me does not have anything to deal with the extreme cold out side heated padding and even that has it's limits. I'm pretty sure they have made othe tech advances too, lol. We can spacewalk in present day equipment. There is no reason to believe ME level armour couldn't insulate comfortably against -40C. You do realise that temps on the moon fluctuate between about 180C and -100C? And yet we had no issue insulating/shielding a moon lander and its occupants in the 60s. But -40C is too much for the nomad and armour tech to handle over 200 years later? Not buying that. I accept it as an interesting gameplay element, but let's not pretend it's completely logical.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 26, 2017 23:28:00 GMT
Don't forget the Nomad on the airless moon. Which would be somewhere around the -270 mark. Though with little atmosphere, there would be little conductivity, so it wouldn't really lose heat/be cold in the traditional sense. But meh, it's still stupid.
And Kadara's insta-kill bleach level lakes.
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Post by NRieh on Apr 27, 2017 6:43:35 GMT
Here's another reference point considering Nomad & its viability in 'hazards'. -50C is an average T outside the aircraft flying 10 000 meters high. It's a common height for the civilian planes. Have in mind that the number is accurate for the summer time (the basic formula of the temperature drop is -6.5C per 1000m, +20C down here means -45C up there)
Civilian planes do that every fucking day, with flights lasting for hours! And neither tech nor passengers experience any problems because (guess what?) aircrafts are built to endure the low temperatures and keep their passengers safe. We're not even talking about the military here - some of their planes are capable of flying well above the 10-11K mark.
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Post by bryanky5 on Apr 27, 2017 8:08:49 GMT
Here's another reference point considering Nomad & its viability in 'hazards'. -50C is an average T outside the aircraft flying 10 000 meters high. It's a common height for the civilian planes. Have in mind that the number is accurate for the summer time (the basic formula of the temperature drop is -6.5C per 1000m, +20C down here means -45C up there) Civilian planes do that every fucking day, with flights lasting for hours! And neither tech nor passengers experience any problems because (guess what?) aircrafts are built to endure the low temperatures and keep their passengers safe. We're not even talking about the military here - some of their planes are capable of flying well above the 10-11K mark. ME universe technology - capable of FTL travel. Incapable of surviving -40 or 50 degrees Celsius
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Post by BrickSev on Apr 27, 2017 11:44:54 GMT
Shhhh, don't poke holes into troll logic, these people need to complain about something it is there reason for existing. Thats unfair. The OP is perfectly reasonable for questioning why -40C is some sort of deadly hazard. It makes no sense. I'm happy enough to ignore it for gameplay purposes but that doesn't make the point invalid. Thank You very much Honestly I was not trolling lol and I was trying to start a logical discussion. I did play ME1 and the Hazard mechanics were different. Also I mentioned the beginning of ME2 for a reason but it seems now trolls likes to do their things by accusing others of being trolls. Welcome to the new era lol Thank You again for the support Also thank you to everyone who posted constructive replies I didn't expected so many replies and I'll do my best to reply asap
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Post by BrickSev on Apr 27, 2017 11:56:02 GMT
That requires extra power in suits. Power drains over time. that would just mean lasting longer in the elements not canceling them out. ....Or just put on a good coat. And there's no way those temp ranges would damage a vehicle. I strongly agree Modern age tech would be enough to counter this temp ranges and I can't believe the Mass Effect one can't do it. Also it would be logical to have no effect on the Nomad and the "cold hazard meter" should rest once we enter the vehicle like when we go near those "heaters". Btw like I said in original post, I'm not attacking lol the game (I'm actually one of the few who defended BW lol) but an attempt to make a logical discussion, because like you said "just put on a good coat" and all would be fine Also, as you mentioned the effects on the Nomad make no sense at all
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Post by kumazan on Apr 27, 2017 11:56:16 GMT
Here's another reference point considering Nomad & its viability in 'hazards'. -50C is an average T outside the aircraft flying 10 000 meters high. It's a common height for the civilian planes. Have in mind that the number is accurate for the summer time (the basic formula of the temperature drop is -6.5C per 1000m, +20C down here means -45C up there) Civilian planes do that every fucking day, with flights lasting for hours! And neither tech nor passengers experience any problems because (guess what?) aircrafts are built to endure the low temperatures and keep their passengers safe. We're not even talking about the military here - some of their planes are capable of flying well above the 10-11K mark. ME universe technology - capable of FTL travel. Incapable of surviving -40 or 50 degrees Celsius That's what you get for trying to be scientific (temperatures down to hundreths of Celsius lol) and not bother with even a basic Wikipedia research. Nobody would have complained if the HUD just said "Environmental Hazard Level X", but no, they had to be specific. And they messed up. It's a very minor thing, but I kinda hope they fix it in the patches to come.
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Post by BrickSev on Apr 27, 2017 12:06:49 GMT
ME universe technology - capable of FTL travel. Incapable of surviving -40 or 50 degrees Celsius That's what you get for trying to be scientific (temperatures down to hundreths of Celsius lol) and not bother with even a basic Wikipedia research. Nobody would have complained if the HUD just said "Environmental Hazard Level X", but no, they had to be specific. And they messed up. It's a very minor thing, but I kinda hope they fix it in the patches to come. Cold Hazards in ME1 were hundred degrees below 0°C. Just look at Mavigon: it was -124°C masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Mavigon Now, that makes sense EDIT: It was a Level 1 Hazard, for the records
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Post by bryanky5 on Apr 27, 2017 12:38:50 GMT
"Sandisk SD cards are capable of withstanding operating temperatures from -13ºF (-25ºC) or 185ºF (85 ºC) for 100 cycles (equivalent to 28 hours)."
Maybe the Initiative should have made the Nomad out of Sandisk SD cards, especially for the extreme 50 degrees heat on Elaaden.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 27, 2017 15:25:07 GMT
ME universe technology - capable of FTL travel. Incapable of surviving -40 or 50 degrees Celsius That's what you get for trying to be scientific (temperatures down to hundreths of Celsius lol) and not bother with even a basic Wikipedia research. Nobody would have complained if the HUD just said "Environmental Hazard Level X", but no, they had to be specific. And they messed up. It's a very minor thing, but I kinda hope they fix it in the patches to come. Or google www.google.com/search?q=coldest+temperature+where+people+live&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
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Post by AnDromedary on Apr 27, 2017 15:56:31 GMT
Yea, I amnaged to ignore the numbers but IMO, it would have been better to have more serious and less common every0day hazards that people can easily relate to in the first place. For example, I think the radiation on Eos worked, didn't see anyone complaining about that. If Elaaden were a volcanic world like PeeBee's LM world instead of a desert, they could have changed the sinkholes to lava pools and thus have a believable navigation hazard (and it would have been a good idea for diversity's sake as well). Then they could either do away with the general environmental hazard on Elladen (at this point, I am so used to deal with it, it doesn't really add any great gameplay anyway) or add some super toxic/corrosive/hot ash particles to the air that would clog your suit. On Voeld, there might have been an extremely strong and unstable magnetic field (you do see these huge auroras after all) that plays havoc with you suits systems after overloading protective shielding. Then, when you run out of life support, you don't loose health but you loose your HUD, your tech abilities and weapons won't work anymore. You know, something different. How about a tidally locked planet where you explore the terminator zone, so there is heat hazard ramping up on one side of the map when you get to the sunny side but within mountain shadows you are fine? How about an asteroid within the scourge or with some eezo anomaly that warps space time with strong mass effect fields and overloads your barriers? But generally, I'd rather go more for navigation hazards then these timer things (they really don't do much for me). How about exploring a moon, forming within a gas giants rings with constant asteroid impacts you need to avoid?
I really don't get why they had to go with heat and cold. It's so unimaginative.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 27, 2017 16:09:55 GMT
Well this thread is specifically about the cold hazard. But the radiation on Eos at level 1 is basically background radiation that we are exposed to every day of our lives. bsn.boards.net/post/503002/thread
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Post by AnDromedary on Apr 27, 2017 16:45:36 GMT
Well this thread is specifically about the cold hazard. But the radiation on Eos at level 1 is basically background radiation that we are exposed to every day of our lives. bsn.boards.net/post/503002/threadThat's kinda what I'm saying. Hardly anyone complained about it despite the fact that it's just as (or even more) stupid. Also, they could have just increased those numbers massively without much issue, while making e.g. Vould -500 degrees or Elaaden +500 degrees would have lead to whole lot of other very obvious problems. But radiation effects are not that clear to most people, so you can get away with more fictional leeway. Temperatures though, everyone can easily relate to.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 27, 2017 16:55:49 GMT
Yeah, they might have gotten away with it if it had been more obscure hazards. Heat and cold are too obvious. 50C is 120F, aka a nice hike through the southwestern US in July.
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Post by alihou on Apr 27, 2017 17:56:06 GMT
A game made by Canadians who live in such climates should know that -40 isn't that bad. I always assumed that there was a bit more to it than the cold weather... I dunno.
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Post by Camel on Apr 27, 2017 18:09:34 GMT
FYI, my husband is from Finland. He grew up in -20 regularly. His parents go up to lapland to hike all the time. www.levi-lapland.com/climate-in-levi/Yeah my husband doesn't even put on a light jacket until 4 or 5 C, and hasn't ever put on a winter coat since he moved here (temps to ~10C). The last time I saw him put on a winter coat, I think it was -15C. 4C isn't even freezing........ And that's call being climatized. He's use to it . Still -34c is still cold. Added 4c is the temp water starts to freeze. So objectively yes it is cold. Yep. Alternative water starts to freeze at 4°C.
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Post by Camel on Apr 27, 2017 18:17:50 GMT
I live in a city where temperature drops to -35°C or even -40°C in winter. And we don't drop dead in minutes like Ryder and co from cold, having warm clothes helps. Wind is another matter and it makes things much worse. Cars work too, you just need to warm up your car repeatedly if it stays outdoor at night, to buy winter tires, to have a good heater in your car.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 27, 2017 18:25:53 GMT
Alternative water. You make me laugh You know, that would have made a better hazard. The wind is so strong and cold that it wears down your protective mass effect shielding/life support. Though a good coat would cut that down by like, 90%, still, so nevermind.
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Post by Camel on Apr 27, 2017 18:32:13 GMT
Alternative water. You make me laugh You know, that would have made a better hazard. The wind is so strong and cold that it wears down your protective mass effect shielding/life support. Though a good coat would cut that down by like, 90%, still, so nevermind. Yeah, frost is half bad but frost coupled with strong wind is nasty. Anyway anoraks can help with that or drinking alcohol(just kidding). I agree that cold hazard in ME1 was depicted much better.
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Post by wellsoul2 on Apr 27, 2017 18:35:51 GMT
In case someone hasn't mentioned it there is a mod on the nexus that at least makes SAM shut up about the cold. www.nexusmods.com/masseffectandromeda/mods/111Yeah they should have left out the temp as before and just have hazard level.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 27, 2017 18:39:41 GMT
Yeah I'm running Cheat Engine to eliminate the hazards, and I just ignore SAM.
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