correctamundo
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Dr Obfuscate
Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
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Post by correctamundo on Apr 16, 2018 5:05:04 GMT
I do pretty much agree with that. I got the whole sense that the writers were going out of there way not to offend anyone. As a writer if you're not offending...challenging peoples' thought processes, you're not creating a believable world...people are not monolithic in the way they were presented in game. From the basic concept to how it was executed, I felt like was part of some idealistic "hippy" commune experiment. "Wo'ah man, were peaceful explorers...we don't need weapons on our ships." Of which I would have shown ships getting blown apart and the terror of people getting blown apart and sucked into vacuum, followed by the realization by the surviving initiative personnel of how naively stupid they were and a complete 180 change of attitude to adopt a militaristic stance...probably leading to early armed conflict with the Angara early on. Conflict is the great narrator. It goes beyond being politically correct hippies. Its just platitudes/buzzwords someone would typically write to lengthen a speech or presentation. Like the architect mission on Eos. You can only respond by agreeing to help Advent or complain about how it will affect the environment. No option to say "We need all the water". In the era of eezo, mass effect drives and cyro-stasis and the dialog lines talk about the environmental effects of natural gas? That part made me feel lik McCoy in Star Trek IV walking through a 20th century hospital. I wasnt annoyed by the Tempest being toothless as most. It wasnt the armaments that made the Normandy effective. But I thought there would be some guns? Or maybe they would be fitted during the course of the game given the threats out there? Or at least a cloaking device? Did the Tempest ever cloak? I can't remember. That is the whole point of the Tempest. Fast, agile and sneaky. So yes there is cloaking.
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Post by smilesja on Apr 16, 2018 5:29:21 GMT
I am not surprised for its pretty much what I expected them to do. Just like any other publisher out there, they will continue to push the limits of what people expect and with all the people that kept saying "this is how you do it, copy Overwatch" it gave them the green light to put them back. Saying any lootbox is acceptable will mean they are going to be in games because they are considered socially acceptable unless you cross the line, now that we have seen where that line is for now its going back to cosmetics. I be someone will try something like Battlefront 2 in a few years again because of how acceptable predatory lootboxes are on cellphone games and when those kids that grew up on it start playing console games they will think its okay for them to be there as well. I think Overwatch loot boxes are exploitive.
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Post by Sanunes on Apr 16, 2018 5:38:03 GMT
I am not surprised for its pretty much what I expected them to do. Just like any other publisher out there, they will continue to push the limits of what people expect and with all the people that kept saying "this is how you do it, copy Overwatch" it gave them the green light to put them back. Saying any lootbox is acceptable will mean they are going to be in games because they are considered socially acceptable unless you cross the line, now that we have seen where that line is for now its going back to cosmetics. I be someone will try something like Battlefront 2 in a few years again because of how acceptable predatory lootboxes are on cellphone games and when those kids that grew up on it start playing console games they will think its okay for them to be there as well. I think Overwatch loot boxes are exploitive. I agree, but that was what was said repeatedly by others was how great Overwatch did it. Even while ignoring how Blizzard sidestepped the laws in China regarding lootboxes.
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Post by helios969 on Apr 16, 2018 10:02:12 GMT
I do pretty much agree with that. I got the whole sense that the writers were going out of there way not to offend anyone. As a writer if you're not offending...challenging peoples' thought processes, you're not creating a believable world...people are not monolithic in the way they were presented in game. From the basic concept to how it was executed, I felt like was part of some idealistic "hippy" commune experiment. "Wo'ah man, were peaceful explorers...we don't need weapons on our ships." Of which I would have shown ships getting blown apart and the terror of people getting blown apart and sucked into vacuum, followed by the realization by the surviving initiative personnel of how naively stupid they were and a complete 180 change of attitude to adopt a militaristic stance...probably leading to early armed conflict with the Angara early on. Conflict is the great narrator. snip. I wasnt annoyed by the Tempest being toothless as most. It wasnt the armaments that made the Normandy effective. But I thought there would be some guns? Or maybe they would be fitted during the course of the game given the threats out there? Or at least a cloaking device? Did the Tempest ever cloak? I can't remember. I wasn't really speaking of the Tempest, I understood its role and purpose as a scout ship. I was really referring to the Arks lack of firepower. Twenty thousand largely defenseless people on each and no one thought some turrets might be useful in the event the indigenous didn't accept "we're peaceful explorers?" I'm sure the Asari and Salarians would have liked to have been armed about the time the Kett showed up. Might not have changed the ultimate outcome, but a few more of them might have survived. It's just an example of the static thinking involved with the story.
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Post by cypherj on Apr 16, 2018 10:31:30 GMT
I do pretty much agree with that. I got the whole sense that the writers were going out of there way not to offend anyone. As a writer if you're not offending...challenging peoples' thought processes, you're not creating a believable world...people are not monolithic in the way they were presented in game. From the basic concept to how it was executed, I felt like was part of some idealistic "hippy" commune experiment. "Wo'ah man, were peaceful explorers...we don't need weapons on our ships." Of which I would have shown ships getting blown apart and the terror of people getting blown apart and sucked into vacuum, followed by the realization by the surviving initiative personnel of how naively stupid they were and a complete 180 change of attitude to adopt a militaristic stance...probably leading to early armed conflict with the Angara early on. Conflict is the great narrator. I wasnt annoyed by the Tempest being toothless as most. It wasnt the armaments that made the Normandy effective. But I thought there would be some guns? Or maybe they would be fitted during the course of the game given the threats out there? Or at least a cloaking device? Did the Tempest ever cloak? I can't remember. Only reason the Tempest and Nomad not having weapons bothered me was because it didn't really make any sense to me. We're in this new galaxy, not knowing what we'll find or what we'll run into, with no immediate support if something goes wrong, but we have no way to defend ourselves if something happens. I don't remember the Tempest ever cloaking, or anyone talking about cloaking. What if the Angarans had been hostile when you first appeared in the skies over Aya? Pathfinder team would have probably been dead right there.
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Apr 16, 2018 12:51:10 GMT
I wasnt annoyed by the Tempest being toothless as most. It wasnt the armaments that made the Normandy effective. But I thought there would be some guns? Or maybe they would be fitted during the course of the game given the threats out there? Or at least a cloaking device? Did the Tempest ever cloak? I can't remember. Only reason the Tempest and Nomad not having weapons bothered me was because it didn't really make any sense to me. We're in this new galaxy, not knowing what we'll find or what we'll run into, with no immediate support if something goes wrong, but we have no way to defend ourselves if something happens. I don't remember the Tempest ever cloaking, or anyone talking about cloaking. What if the Angarans had been hostile when you first appeared in the skies over Aya? Pathfinder team would have probably been dead right there. I don't mind it as much on the space ships for going in fully armed to me means that you are going in for conflict only. What I think would have been a good idea is if you built the military base on Eos you were able to retrofit a weapon onto the Nomad for at that point you have decided to go with more conflict then diplomacy and are making that choice based on the situation you are in.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 13:06:22 GMT
I wasnt annoyed by the Tempest being toothless as most. It wasnt the armaments that made the Normandy effective. But I thought there would be some guns? Or maybe they would be fitted during the course of the game given the threats out there? Or at least a cloaking device? Did the Tempest ever cloak? I can't remember. Only reason the Tempest and Nomad not having weapons bothered me was because it didn't really make any sense to me. We're in this new galaxy, not knowing what we'll find or what we'll run into, with no immediate support if something goes wrong, but we have no way to defend ourselves if something happens. I don't remember the Tempest ever cloaking, or anyone talking about cloaking. What if the Angarans had been hostile when you first appeared in the skies over Aya? Pathfinder team would have probably been dead right there. We do find out in the final battle that the Nexus does have armed vessels aboard it (as used by Kandros and Reyes during the final battle). The Nexus itself is not armed and neither is the Tempest. Apollo didn't have obvious arms and neither does our space station. I'm not sure the idea of going into someplace new armed to the teeth is necessarily all that universal. Gamers have this mentality that they want everything armed when they play... and I really think that's at the core of the excessive complaints about Tempest and Nomad not being armed. Fact is, the Angarans were somewhat hostile towards newcomers; and the one thing that convinced them not to shoot down the Tempest on sight was that it was obviously not armed. As I said, even if Nexus was armed to the teeth, the Initiative would have stood no chance against any native hostile force they met head on. Native populations numbering the millions or billions or trillions could easily crush the Initiative (who were only about 200,000 people maximum - most of whom were in still in cryo). Had they fired anything at the Angaran (even in defence) they would have been every bit as dead right there as you claim going in unarmed would have made them. If you go into someone's homeland looking like an armed invasion force, you better have a force large enough to actually carry out an invasion or you're going to get crushed. From a story perspective, I could easily set it aside. It isn't a story-breaker for me at all. From a gameplay perspective, I didn't miss it (never used the canon much on the mako once I learned that I could take down the maws far more easily just on foot because I could hit them with warp or neural shock and they'd go down with very few rounds from pretty much any standard gun in the game.
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Post by cypherj on Apr 16, 2018 13:19:40 GMT
Only reason the Tempest and Nomad not having weapons bothered me was because it didn't really make any sense to me. We're in this new galaxy, not knowing what we'll find or what we'll run into, with no immediate support if something goes wrong, but we have no way to defend ourselves if something happens. I don't remember the Tempest ever cloaking, or anyone talking about cloaking. What if the Angarans had been hostile when you first appeared in the skies over Aya? Pathfinder team would have probably been dead right there. I don't mind it as much on the space ships for going in fully armed to me means that you are going in for conflict only. What I think would have been a good idea is if you built the military base on Eos you were able to retrofit a weapon onto the Nomad for at that point you have decided to go with more conflict then diplomacy and are making that choice based on the situation you are in. Why does a ship having defensive capabilities mean it's going in only for conflict though? A scout ship to me, launches from a larger ship, which remains in range to support the scout ship if something goes wrong. If you have science officers, medical staff, and you're actually living on the ship, you should be able to defend yourself if a situation arises. Especially if you have no means of support near by. Why are you and your squad carrying guns? In case something goes wrong and you have to defend yourself. What if some of the Kett ships had been able to make it through the scourge when you ran the one time. How would the Tempest have defended itself? The Initiative knows the Kett are out there, but they're sending their people out unarmed.
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Post by cypherj on Apr 16, 2018 13:35:24 GMT
Only reason the Tempest and Nomad not having weapons bothered me was because it didn't really make any sense to me. We're in this new galaxy, not knowing what we'll find or what we'll run into, with no immediate support if something goes wrong, but we have no way to defend ourselves if something happens. I don't remember the Tempest ever cloaking, or anyone talking about cloaking. What if the Angarans had been hostile when you first appeared in the skies over Aya? Pathfinder team would have probably been dead right there. We do find out in the final battle that the Nexus does have armed vessels aboard it (as used by Kandros and Reyes during the final battle). The Nexus itself is not armed and neither is the Tempest. Apollo didn't have obvious arms and neither does our space station. I'm not sure the idea of going into someplace new armed to the teeth is necessarily all that universal. Gamers have this mentality that they want everything armed when they play... and I really think that's at the core of the excessive complaints about Tempest and Nomad not being armed. Fact is, the Angarans were somewhat hostile towards newcomers; and the one thing that convinced them not to shoot down the Tempest on sight was that it was obviously not armed. As I said, even if Nexus was armed to the teeth, the Initiative would have stood no chance against any native hostile force they met head on. Native populations numbering the millions or billions or trillions could easily crush the Initiative (who were only about 200,000 people maximum - most of whom were in still in cryo). Had they fired anything at the Angaran (even in defence) they would have been every bit as dead right there as you claim going in unarmed would have made them. If you go into someone's homeland looking like an armed invasion force, you better have a force large enough to actually carry out an invasion or you're going to get crushed. From a story perspective, I could easily set it aside. It isn't a story-breaker for me at all. From a gameplay perspective, I didn't miss it (never used the canon much on the mako once I learned that I could take down the maws far more easily just on foot because I could hit them with warp or neural shock and they'd go down with very few rounds from pretty much any standard gun in the game. I'm talking more story perspective. People act as if having defensive capabilities makes you a war ship, or says you're seeking conflict. You're in an entirely new galaxy with no idea what you'll run into. You're not walking around without weapons, so why would none of your ships and vehicles have weapons in case you run into something guns can't handle. The Kett have already attacked you on Habitat 7, and wiped out your colonies on Eos. Why would you then go out on your own without any means of defending yourself? This wasn't anything major that ruined the experience, it just never made sense to me.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 16, 2018 14:13:27 GMT
We do find out in the final battle that the Nexus does have armed vessels aboard it (as used by Kandros and Reyes during the final battle). And where were those armed vessels when the kett showed up and took the Hyperion?
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Post by gplayer on Apr 16, 2018 14:26:18 GMT
The Apollo comparison does not work, you already know there is no one on the moon or the space around it. Also, in early space flight weight is at a premium.
The more accurate comparison is the Mayflower, Santa Maria or the Trinidad. All were exploration or colony ships and all had a well stocked gun deck.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 14:34:25 GMT
We do find out in the final battle that the Nexus does have armed vessels aboard it (as used by Kandros and Reyes during the final battle). And where were those armed vessels when the kett showed up and took the Hyperion? Maybe they put up a fight then too... we were not shown what was going on outside the Nexus while the sibling and Captain Dunn were involved in a gunfight; and I do think there is a plot hole there much on the same level as the DA not firing anything at the geth. A bigger question I have is why, if the Nexus was completely unarmed, didn't the Kett just blow it right out of the sky once they grabbed the Hyperion?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 14:38:50 GMT
The Apollo comparison does not work, you already know there is no one on the moon or the space around it. Also, in early space flight weight is at a premium. The more accurate comparison is the Mayflower, Santa Maria or the Trinidad. All were exploration or colony ships and all had a well stocked gun deck. Which did nothing to aid them in making peace with the native population. I doubt they were there to protect them from the unknown, but so that they could protect themselves while leaving the seas that they already knew were also sailed by their nation's enemies and pirates of the day. They were just damned lucky that the native populations of the unknown shores they were exploring were not in position of technology equal to their own... or they would have never made landfall. Another thing to note is that Columbus believed he was finding an alternate route to East Asia (a land known by Europeans... just that that overland trade route were blocked by enemies). So, he also had reason to believe he would meet resistance at his destination.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 16, 2018 15:07:23 GMT
Maybe they put up a fight then too... we were not shown what was going on outside the Nexus while the sibling and Captain Dunn were involved in a gunfight; and I do think there is a plot hole there much on the same level as the DA not firing anything at the geth. A bigger question I have is why, if the Nexus was completely unarmed, didn't the Kett just blow it right out of the sky once they grabbed the Hyperion? A better question is why didn't Archie leave some forces on the Nexus and take the Hyperion causing Ryder to choose between saving the people on the Nexus or saving the Hyperion and gaining Meridian? I know Archie is very obsessed with the remnant stuff, but he could have had it all. Another thing is why didn't he go after Aya after seeing Ryder's memories. I doubt Aya has any defenses that would stop a large kett force from attacking or invading.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 15:22:29 GMT
Maybe they put up a fight then too... we were not shown what was going on outside the Nexus while the sibling and Captain Dunn were involved in a gunfight; and I do think there is a plot hole there much on the same level as the DA not firing anything at the geth. A bigger question I have is why, if the Nexus was completely unarmed, didn't the Kett just blow it right out of the sky once they grabbed the Hyperion? A better question is why didn't Archie leave some forces on the Nexus and take the Hyperion causing Ryder to choose between saving the people on the Nexus or saving the Hyperion and gaining Meridian? I know Archie is very obsessed with the remnant stuff, but he could have had it all. Another thing is why didn't he go after Aya after seeing Ryder's memories. I doubt Aya has any defenses that would stop a large kett force from attacking or invading. Well, if you want to write your novel, go for it. As for defenses on Aya.. again, we don't know. It's not shown or discussed in the narrative. Resistance HQ is on Aya and we are shown that it has an array of surveillance. In addition, Tempest was met and escorted by a squadron of Angara fighters. Why would you doubt they have defenses? Really, people just love to assume in one direction when it comes to ME1 and a totally opposite direction when it comes to Andromeda. Laughable really.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 16, 2018 15:52:10 GMT
if you want to write your novel, go for it. Same can be said about you asking why the kett didn't blow up the Nexus, right? I never said they didn't have any defenses
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Post by Iakus on Apr 16, 2018 15:57:45 GMT
I wasnt annoyed by the Tempest being toothless as most. It wasnt the armaments that made the Normandy effective. But I thought there would be some guns? Or maybe they would be fitted during the course of the game given the threats out there? Or at least a cloaking device? Did the Tempest ever cloak? I can't remember. Only reason the Tempest and Nomad not having weapons bothered me was because it didn't really make any sense to me. We're in this new galaxy, not knowing what we'll find or what we'll run into, with no immediate support if something goes wrong, but we have no way to defend ourselves if something happens. I don't remember the Tempest ever cloaking, or anyone talking about cloaking. What if the Angarans had been hostile when you first appeared in the skies over Aya? Pathfinder team would have probably been dead right there. Just stick Drack out the back of the ship with a rifle like in Guardians of the Galaxy
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Post by Sondergaard on Apr 16, 2018 17:14:32 GMT
Really, people just love to assume in one direction when it comes to ME1 and a totally opposite direction when it comes to Andromeda. Laughable really. MET had plenty of plotholes. However, they were surrounded by a rich story and an excellent cast of characters so were merely irritating. Andromeda doesn't have that buffer. Remember, it's the fourth game in the series from a developer with a track record in excellence. Laughable really.
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Post by cypherj on Apr 16, 2018 17:24:41 GMT
Only reason the Tempest and Nomad not having weapons bothered me was because it didn't really make any sense to me. We're in this new galaxy, not knowing what we'll find or what we'll run into, with no immediate support if something goes wrong, but we have no way to defend ourselves if something happens. I don't remember the Tempest ever cloaking, or anyone talking about cloaking. What if the Angarans had been hostile when you first appeared in the skies over Aya? Pathfinder team would have probably been dead right there. Just stick Drack out the back of the ship with a rifle like in Guardians of the Galaxy
Well if Asari can get out and cover entire ships with protective fields, I guess it's feasible
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 16, 2018 17:27:03 GMT
Maybe they put up a fight then too... we were not shown what was going on outside the Nexus while the sibling and Captain Dunn were involved in a gunfight; and I do think there is a plot hole there much on the same level as the DA not firing anything at the geth. A bigger question I have is why, if the Nexus was completely unarmed, didn't the Kett just blow it right out of the sky once they grabbed the Hyperion? A better question is why didn't Archie leave some forces on the Nexus and take the Hyperion causing Ryder to choose between saving the people on the Nexus or saving the Hyperion and gaining Meridian? I know Archie is very obsessed with the remnant stuff, but he could have had it all. Another thing is why didn't he go after Aya after seeing Ryder's memories. I doubt Aya has any defenses that would stop a large kett force from attacking or invading. I don't think we ever really get clear details on the forces in the Nexus. Presumably, enough were repelled that the station itself wasn't overrun, so they just managed the Hyperion. As for Aya, memories of the place wouldn't be meaningful without memories of the actual route to get there. Kallo and Suvi would be more likely to know their way around that. In any case, attacking the planet wouldn't be necessary, neither would be holding the Nexus. In the end, the forces at Meridian would serve for delaying the Kett, but would have failed entirely to stop them on their own. Had the Ryder sibling failed to reach the console to reset SAM and revive the Pathfinder, the Archon would have successfully overridden Meridian's controls, and basically everyone in Heleus would have no ground to run to. He'd reverse terraforming on Podromos to make an example, and probably Kadara next as payback.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 17:50:59 GMT
if you want to write your novel, go for it. Same can be said about you asking why the kett didn't blow up the Nexus, right? I never said they didn't have any defenses Oh, so you want to play word games? You specifically said: Yet, the Angara have been keeping the kett at bay for 80 or so years on at least 2 other planets that we know of (Voeld and Havarl) and maybe a few more since the game is not specific about the number of worlds they still hold (it's a few is all be know). Again, they have their Resistant HQ on Aya (along with a training facility), what makes you think they would not take steps to defend it. They did send out a squadron of fighters to escort a single unarmed vessel into their city and Ryder was met on the ramp by a number of armed Angara. Certainly, they are making strategic use of the fact that the planet is hidden by the scourge... but that's no reason to just assume that they wouldn't have taken steps to protect/defend those assets IF the planet were ever discovered.
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Post by smilesja on Apr 16, 2018 17:55:09 GMT
Really, people just love to assume in one direction when it comes to ME1 and a totally opposite direction when it comes to Andromeda. Laughable really. MET had plenty of plotholes. However, they were surrounded by a rich story and an excellent cast of characters so were merely irritating. Andromeda doesn't have that buffer. Remember, it's the fourth game in the series from a developer with a track record in excellence. Laughable really. The 4th game was coming off the heels of one of the biggest gaming controversies of the decade. There was some resentment towards it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 17:55:40 GMT
Really, people just love to assume in one direction when it comes to ME1 and a totally opposite direction when it comes to Andromeda. Laughable really. MET had plenty of plotholes. However, they were surrounded by a rich story and an excellent cast of characters so were merely irritating. Andromeda doesn't have that buffer. Remember, it's the fourth game in the series from a developer with a track record in excellence. Laughable really. ... and that's a reason to assume that a ship touted has having the firepower of 20 dreadnoughts that can "rip through the barriers of any ship in the Alliance" shouldn't similarly be able to rip through the barriers on geth fighters (see discussion on Things That Don't Make Sense Thread)... and yet assume that an entire planet held by a species that have been at war with another species for nearly a century and who have located their Resistance HQ on that planet have no defenses in place to repel that enemy should they attack that planet? Laughable how you keep trying to pull comments out of context. Bioware makes many of the same writing errors in ME1 that they do in ME:A... yet, ME1 is viewed as some flawless masterpiece without a single plot hole, etc. and ME:A is viewed as complete garbage? Sorry, I don't buy it. ME1 is flawed and ME:A is also flawed in many of the exact same ways ME1 is flawed. The big difference is that ME:A released to a fan base already resistant to exploring the story and already primed to hate the premise of the entire game and already bitter about ME3's endings... a fan base that proved that to be fact by dissing on ME:A a full year before it released... before they had any inkling whatsoever about the story, the dialogue, the animations, and the gameplay.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 16, 2018 19:21:52 GMT
Had the Ryder sibling failed to reach the console to reset SAM and revive the Pathfinder, the Archon would have successfully overridden Meridian's controls, and basically everyone in Heleus would have no ground to run to. He'd reverse terraforming on Podromos to make an example, and probably Kadara next as payback. Had it not been for the scrouge, the kett would have killed Ryder and the others before reaching Meridian.
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Post by Sondergaard on Apr 16, 2018 19:24:49 GMT
MET had plenty of plotholes. However, they were surrounded by a rich story and an excellent cast of characters so were merely irritating. Andromeda doesn't have that buffer. Remember, it's the fourth game in the series from a developer with a track record in excellence. Laughable really. ... and that's a reason to assume that a ship touted has having the firepower of 20 dreadnoughts that can "rip through the barriers of any ship in the Alliance" can't similarly rip through the barriers on geth fighters (see discussion on Things That Don't Make Sense Thread)... and yet assume that an entire planet held by a species that have been at war with another species for nearly a century and who have located their Resistance HQ on that planet have no defenses in place to repel that enemy should they attack that planet? Laughable how you keep trying to pull comments out of context. Did you actually read my post? I ask as you have, perhaps deliberately, missed my point entirely.
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